Converting an IPA to an APA

[Queequeg]

I am having so trouble converting an IPA recipe of mine to a APA. This is potentially part of a commercial venture so I need to be careful with the details so my please forgive me if I don't other forward all the recipe details

Originally the beer was an IPA, it tastes great but lacks the potency of hop aroma / taste for an IPA so I wanted to covert it to a APA as the flavor profile is good and highly drinkable.

so far I have brewed two attempts to get what I am after, the second is much closer to what I want but its still not quite there.

The is a slight over dryness and slight astringency to the final beer. The beer is not overly bitter its just too dry and the bitterness lingers to long. I want to iron this out of the beer.

So to rule some things out

pH of the mash was 5.2
pH of sparge was 5.2
Mash time was around 60 mins
mash temperatures did not exceed 70C

So I am ruling out grain tannin's

The kettle is a very vigorous boil with a hop spider. There are no kettle additions other than at 60 mins and as a hopstand at 65C for 45mins. The bitter addition is warrior to produce 25 IBUs.

Potentially I could simply be extracting too many IBU with a high kettle utilization, but 25 IBU's is a pretty modest bittering charge.

Water chemistry is brun water pale ale, this could be the culprit as the beer tastes ever so slightly minerally. Like a st peters beer.

The dry hop is in two additions: one on day three and one after completion of fermentation. The total amount of hops used on whirlpool and dry hop is 285g. The ipa version used 500g. That is 8.3g/GU for the IPA and 5.3/GU for the APA. So on paper at least the polyphenols for the hops to sugars is lower in the APA.

There are no signs of infection.

So I'm a bit lost on where to take this on batch three especially when the since the IPA didn't have this problem.

I am thinking for the next batch to maybe adjust the FG from 1.012 to 1.014 and use a softer chloride forward water profile and maybe dial back the hop quantities too.

Anyone with experience at converting recipes or getting ride of astringency your input is especially welcome. I do have access to a grain father so I could do the recipe on that setup to eliminate equipment issues. I don't get this problem on any other beers though.

Thanks
Q

 

[505-Brewer]

Could be many things. Malt selection and protein levels can have huge effect on mouthfeel hop perception etc. as can yeast choice. Post the recipe. Any brewer will tell you there’s more to commercial success than having a secret recipe. If you want Private Consulting I am available for hire.

 

[thehaze]

What's your grainbill, yeast choice, yeast pitching rates, fermentation temps., dry hopping schedule ( how many days ), etc.?

I would say that 285 gr hops for 5-6 gallons is right at the edge for a hoppy Pale Ale, at least for my taste. The mash pH of 5.2 sounds good, but you could try to raise that to 5.3-5-4 to see how you like it. I liked it every time I did. The Pale Ale water profile from Bru'nWater asks for 300 ppm of sulfate. For me, that's a lot, and too much even for an IPA, but have you brewed other beers using the same water profile?

Astringency can be a lot of things.

For a max. 6% ABV Pale Ale, I would not go for more than 40-50 IBUs and maybe 140-150 ppm sulfate. But there are so many factors that play into the beer. You say you have no late boil additions. You only bitter at 60' and then a whirlpool,. which could be fine, but late additions do add some flavour, which for me works well in adding to the complexity. Maybe try to add you first hops with 20 minutes left in the boil, and then every 4-5 minutes, cool down the wort and whirlpool around 5 oz ( 100-150 gr ) hops at a much lower temperature. Dry hop with 4-5 oz ( 110-150 gr ) hops and only for 2 days, as you get maximum extraction and don't really need to let the hops in the beer for much longer.

Cold crash, if you can keep O2 out of the beer and package.

Regarding FG---> 1.012 is very good and higher than that will definitely add too much body / sweetness / fullness to the beer and I don't think you would want it, for a drinkable / quaffable Pale. I would actually go lower than 1.012.

Seeing that you are from the UK, you are probably familiar with Oakham. Their Citra Pale Ale is a perfect example of what a drinkable, pleasently aromatic and flavourful, Pale Ale could be. Not overly bitter, nor minerally, hoppy, maybe around 35 IBUs, etc.

 

[Queequeg]

The recipe is

19L batch @77% mas eff

66% English base malt 1.7L
19% wheat malt
7% aromatic malt
5% Low color crystal
3% acid malt

SG 1.051
FG 1.012

25IBUs from 60min warrior addition
65C hopstand for 45 mins with 154g of a trifecta of tropical hops

Ferment with Vermont ale yeast at 18C raise to 21 after 2 days

dry hop on day 2 with 126g
Keg on day 10
keg hop with 126g for 2 days before chill and carbing

carb to 2.3 vols

 

[thehaze]

Dry hopping at lower temps. will get you grassy flavours, and this is something you can read about and have also tried it myself and it's not pleasent.

I have used up to 550-580 gr og hops for 6 gallons with no astringency, chalkiness or harsh flavours. Whatever you taste or perceive as astringency does not comes from hops.

 

[Queequeg]

I don't pull my hops from the keg. But I have dried hopped in the kegged for the last 5 years without grassy flavor, so I don't think that is the issue.

The fermenter hops are in contact with the wort for 8 days at 21C and I would not describe the flavor as grassy anyway.

I am currently thinking that I should try changing the water chem and using hop shot to bitter just so that I know the actual levels of IBU's.