Controller that can adapt from USA 240v to EU 220v

[Joshuah57]

I am in the planning stages for building a control panel for my 3v HERMs system. My wife and I are seriously looking at moving to Europe in the next few years, so I'm hoping to be able to bring it with us and be able to adapt the controller. Am I able to build a controller that I can use now, but adapt to Europe's 220v?
I currently use a rheostat to control the elements. It is connected to a subpanel that has 2 x 240v 30amp breakers and one 120v 15 amp breaker. The subpanel runs off a 50 amp spa panel. When I brew, I unplug the HLT when done mashing and then plug in the boil kettle. I also run 2 MKII pumps that are 120v.
My ultimate wish would be to have a controller where I could run possibly both kettles if budget allows. I was looking at something similar to Auber's 50 amp brew buddy: Brew Buddy 240v. I like its capability and that it is DIN based. I would be putting it together myself. Could I build something similar and change it to European power without major changes? Is it at all possible to reduce voltage in the panel to be able to use current pumps or should I look at purchasing 220-240v pumps? If I built the panel with all 240v to start, would I mainly just be replacing the input plug and removing the neutral wires?

 

[doug293cz]

I am in the planning stages for building a control panel for my 3v HERMs system. My wife and I are seriously looking at moving to Europe in the next few years, so I'm hoping to be able to bring it with us and be able to adapt the controller. Am I able to build a controller that I can use now, but adapt to Europe's 220v?
I currently use a rheostat to control the elements. It is connected to a subpanel that has 2 x 240v 30amp breakers and one 120v 15 amp breaker. The subpanel runs off a 50 amp spa panel. When I brew, I unplug the HLT when done mashing and then plug in the boil kettle. I also run 2 MKII pumps that are 120v.
My ultimate wish would be to have a controller where I could run possibly both kettles if budget allows. I was looking at something similar to Auber's 50 amp brew buddy: Brew Buddy 240v. I like its capability and that it is DIN based. I would be putting it together myself. Could I build something similar and change it to European power without major changes? Is it at all possible to reduce voltage in the panel to be able to use current pumps or should I look at purchasing 220-240v pumps? If I built the panel with all 240v to start, would I mainly just be replacing the input plug and removing the neutral wires?

You would need to add a transformer, or an AC to AC power supply, to reduce the 230V power to 120V for the pumps, or else get pumps that will run on 230V.

Other wiring changes would depend on just how the original US 240V panel was wired. It's possible to wire so that it requires essentially no changes (except for the pumps), or to wire so that more extensive changes are required.

Brew on

 

[duncan.brown]

Before you build, I’d recommend doing some research into the differences between European electrical supply and the US supply. It’s not just the voltage that is different.

US domestic supply gives you three wires L1, L2, and N. The neutral, N, is the (grounded) center tap of a transformer with a 220V secondary that steps the residential distribution voltage down to residential supply. That means you get 220VAC between L1 and L2 and 110VAC between either L1 and N or L2 and N. This is a single phase supply, as it’s a single winding, but L1 and L2 are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. In modern construction you should also have a ground created by driving a big copper spike into the ground.

The U.K. on the other had, gives you a single phase L, an N, and an E. Between L and N you get 240VAC. There’s no second hot wire. E is Earth, and is a ground connection provided by the supply company. Mainland Europe differs slightly in the AC voltage and where the Earth (ground) is generated, but is basically the same.

You’ll need to take this difference into account when designing a 220/240V panel that can work on both systems. Also the US AC frequency is 60 Hz and the EU is 50 Hz, but that’s probably less of a problem in designing a HERMS panel.

 

[Joshuah57]

I have a basic understanding of the differences. That is why I asked if I would be mostly removing a few wires from the panel when converting. If I build it from the ground up to have all 240v, would I be doing just that? From what I see, all the components (switches, buttons, lights, contractors with 240v coil, etc) operate within a range, including 240v.

I did not realize there was a difference in power between uk and mainland. I thought it was just plug style. We have narrowed our country choices to either Italy or Romania (wife's home country).

 

[thomashp]

As for the heating elements, just make sure you run 240 volt elements. The change in Hertz will not effect them, the slightly lower voltage will give you 92% of the power. As for the rest of the controls, your 120v pumps would not work well. You would need a transformer to step down the voltage from 220 to 110 and they would spin slower at 50hz. The best solution here would probably be to have the controls run off a fixed dc voltage like 24v and use a DC power supply that will handle any input voltage you throw at it. You would need all new controls that work off 24v as well as pumps that run off 24v. This is super common control voltage though, so these will not be hard to find.

 

[Joshuah57]

Could I also run 240v pumps like the Blichmann Riptide or I've seen a 240v version of the MKII pumps on AliExpress?

 

[duncan.brown]

I'd go with @thomashp's solution and run everything at 24VDC except for the 240VAC heating elements which should be switched by the SSR. Then the only component you have to worry about is the step-down transformer. Heating elements won't care about frequency or L1-L2 vs L-N. The differences in voltages across the EU (still counting the UK as part of the EU...) are not significant and you'll just get a slight drop or increase in heat output which your PID should learn and compensate for.

24VDC pumps are not too hard to find, e.g. MoreBeer has this:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/t...MIwvfp4LDU6gIVCaGzCh32BALiEAQYASABEgJvs_D_BwE
Converting the BrewBuddy would require more work than just removing the US neutral. It looks like a clone of a Kal panel and that as a bunch of 110V components in it (indicator lights, buzzers, etc.) You'd need too change all these out as well. You could build a purely 240VAC panel from the ground up, but 24VDC will be easier.

 

[thomashp]

Could I also run 240v pumps like the Blichmann Riptide or I've seen a 240v version of the MKII pumps on AliExpress?

The issue with the pumps is that for AC pumps the frequency determines how fast they spin. If you use the European 240v 50Hz riptide on 60hz, it would spin faster than it is supposed to. If you found a 240V pump that was designed for 60Hz, it would run slow at 50Hz. This difference is pretty significant, it would either being going 120% faster or 83% slower respectively.

 

[Deadalus]

Before you build, I’d recommend doing some research into the differences between European electrical supply and the US supply. It’s not just the voltage that is different.

US domestic supply gives you three wires L1, L2, and N. The neutral, N, is the (grounded) center tap of a transformer with a 220V secondary that steps the residential distribution voltage down to residential supply. That means you get 220VAC between L1 and L2 and 110VAC between either L1 and N or L2 and N. This is a single phase supply, as it’s a single winding, but L1 and L2 are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. In modern construction you should also have a ground created by driving a big copper spike into the ground.

The U.K. on the other had, gives you a single phase L, an N, and an E. Between L and N you get 240VAC. There’s no second hot wire. E is Earth, and is a ground connection provided by the supply company. Mainland Europe differs slightly in the AC voltage and where the Earth (ground) is generated, but is basically the same.

You’ll need to take this difference into account when designing a 220/240V panel that can work on both systems. Also the US AC frequency is 60 Hz and the EU is 50 Hz, but that’s probably less of a problem in designing a HERMS panel.

Just a curious reader here and unversed in electrical theory. The European L wire is probably larger then as compared to the US L1 and L2 for delivering the same amperage?

If there is just that one larger European L wire coming in for power, wouldn't there be more differences inside. I wired my panel but didn't assemble the components nor could I design one. But the L1 and L2 wires, the two hots, seem to continue their separation all the way to the heating elements. Perhaps just one larger wire would suffice in the change to the European panel then?

Or maybe they still double up the wires for larger devices 30+amps?

 

[thomashp]

The wire sizes would be the same. The main power connection to the control panel would be different. To wire the control panel in the US, most of the current comes from the two 120V legs (L1 and L2) that add to give you 240V. These conductors would both be sized for the max current. There might also be some 120V loads that would be powered from one of the 120V legs and a neutral wire. The 120V loads are generally small, so a small neutral wire can be used.

To connect power to the control panel in Europe, The main power connection would be from the 240V leg (L1) and the Neutral Wire (N). These wires would need to both be sized for the max current (the same as with the L1 and and L2 in the US). There is no 120V connection in Europe, so 120V equipment in the panel would not be powered unless a step down transformer is used in the panel.

 

[duncan.brown]

Getting off-topic here, but in the U.K. the wires in the wall are thinner as circuits are wired in a ring main, so the current has two paths to the device. Plus most homes have a whole-house RCCB (similar to a GFCI). But I’ll save that post for expatsrantaboutthesuperiorityofukwiringvsuswiring-talk.com

 

[Ihop2many]

Voltage is a slight concern here, as mentioned previously, but manageable: 120/240V for residential U.S. power versus 240V in UK and 220-230V in mainland Europe. 50Hz versus 60Hz can be disastrous for transformers and motors, it is not just a question of running slower. Operating a 60Hz transformer on a 50Hz supply will usually lead to failure. I learned this lesson in the 70s while working with equipment that was designed for the US market and brought to Europe: it soon failed! Manufacturers had to step in and beef up the windings to handle the load.

You can make this work, just need to plan for it, good luck.