Confused about lacto use.

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Desertbrewer

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Picked up a kit at my homebrew shop that is a basic Belgian blonde that I was planning to ferment with some leftover 3711 and then sour via a vial of white labs Lacto D.

My goal is to make a sour saison.

Guy at the homebrew shop made the process sound very simple;
Brew and ferment with sacc strain
Rack to secondary and add lacto for 3-6 months for sourness

Looking on here, it seems that nobody does this.

Why? Does this not work?
Would adding fermentables such as fruit increase sourness?

I remember reading somewhere that lacto and Brett work well together... Will pitching Orval dregs increase the lacto's effectiveness?

Starter for the lactobacillus?

Lots of questions that I'm sure have been asked, but mainly want to know, how do I make a sour saison with what I have.
 
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I might suggest souring it first, which could be done in less than a week, then fermenting it out with Sach, unless you really want to wait 3-6 months for your first one.
 
You can do it the way he told you but most people use lacto first because it's much quicker.
 
you can find all the info on this topic you need here

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Sour_Worting

If you do end up souring pre fermentation (recommended) Dont use WL 677. I would recommend Goodbelly probiotic shots. Can be found at most markets for about $3 just direct pitch. Bam
 
You should probably do some research and try a few beers of the type you are trying to replicate. You can use it in all sorts of ways. You can sour mash pre-boil if you have a way to keep it at 110F. This would be the fastest method. You can pitch sac in primary and lacto in secondary and age until you get the sourness you want. (This is what Jolly Pumpkin does). Also you can co pitch sac and lacto in primary. There are pros and cons to each of the methods and you just have to do some research to decide what is most likely to work for you.
 
Brewed it today, mashed high and got good efficiency.
Seems to be the consensus that kettle souring is more an issue of saving time than anything else.


You should probably do some research and try a few beers of the type you are trying to replicate. You can use it in all sorts of ways. You can sour mash pre-boil if you have a way to keep it at 110F. This would be the fastest method. You can pitch sac in primary and lacto in secondary and age until you get the sourness you want. (This is what Jolly Pumpkin does). Also you can co pitch sac and lacto in primary. There are pros and cons to each of the methods and you just have to do some research to decide what is most likely to work for you.


Yes, I've had a Jolly Pumpkin, Russian River Consecration, and a couple Belgian examples. I am not looking for a simple sourness like I've encountered in various gose's (never had a Berliner Weiss, guessing it's similar without the salinity?). This answers my question, I am looking to do the latter, maybe get a bottle or two of one of those beers and pitch for extra depth of flavor. Picked up 5 pounds of cherries today too that I'm excited about using for this experiment.

I've read that it can be an issue to achieve desirable level of sourness with lacto in secondary, but that an increase in temp will help. Anyone know how much heat the bugs can handle? Out here in California right now, my garage or laundry room will range from about 85-115 throughout the day.
 
Brewed it today, mashed high and got good efficiency.
Seems to be the consensus that kettle souring is more an issue of saving time than anything else.





Yes, I've had a Jolly Pumpkin, Russian River Consecration, and a couple Belgian examples. I am not looking for a simple sourness like I've encountered in various gose's (never had a Berliner Weiss, guessing it's similar without the salinity?). This answers my question, I am looking to do the latter, maybe get a bottle or two of one of those beers and pitch for extra depth of flavor. Picked up 5 pounds of cherries today too that I'm excited about using for this experiment.

I've read that it can be an issue to achieve desirable level of sourness with lacto in secondary, but that an increase in temp will help. Anyone know how much heat the bugs can handle? Out here in California right nayow, my garage or laundry room will range from about 85-115 throughout the d.

There are a few reasons to kettle sour. One of which is time. Another is keeping equipment bacteria free, another might be avoiding the incompatibility of hops and lacto.

Is you wort hopped? If so you may get little to no sourness due to the fact that lacto is impeded by hops (even like 2 IBU depending on strain)

To your statement about complexity. If this is the goal then yes, time is your friend but you are going to want more biodiversity than just Lacto. Pedio is hop tolerant and suited for long term aging. A mixed culture (from the like of the yeast bay and bootleg biology) and or bottle dregs should achieve this.

Also you may have purchased you cherries prematurely as these come after you have reached your desired sourness and complexity, in a year or so.
 
The beer you are going to get from using the kettle souring method versus fermenting first then adding lacto for a 3-6 months are going to be completely different. Its like comparing apples and oranges.
The short answer is if you want to add lacto in secondary, mash on the high side to leave something for the lacto to work on.
A simple way to make a "Rodenbach" type sour beer is to brew a standard Flanders Red, ferment out with So4, then add a sour beer yeast mix like ECY Bug Farm. You'll get really nice complex sour beer in about 12 months.
You can add more complexity by Brewing another of the same beer and then blending 1/3 of the new beer (after 6 months) and 2/3 of the older beer (let it age 18 months). Change up the blending ratios to suit your taste, add cherries or whatever suits you if you like. Brew larger batches, because once you get it right, you'll wish you had made more.
For more information there are 30+ hours of podcast information on the "sour hour" podcast and I recommend "American Sour Beers" book by Mike Tonsmeire.
 
I'm not sure you'll actually get more complexity adding lacto post-fermentation. The level of acidity will differ but the profile should be about the same. As far as I know lacto doesn't interact with esters/alcohol/other compounds in the same way Brett or a mixed culture might.
 
Id recommend doing a sour mash or kettle sour to introduce the lacto then ferment the beer with your sacc strain. You'll save a ton of time and you can control how sour you want your beer a lot easier
 
Not if doing a kettle sour with lacto.

He was talking about ramping it to 115 in secondary, not in the kettle. I guess the hot secondary would work too if primary is done, but I would be worried about over-souring. You might also need to keg or reyeast at bottling since your secondary may have killed the primary yeast.
 
He was talking about ramping it to 115 in secondary, not in the kettle. I guess the hot secondary would work too if primary is done, but I would be worried about over-souring. You might also need to keg or reyeast at bottling since your secondary may have killed the primary yeast.

My mistake. Totally missed that part.
 
He was talking about ramping it to 115 in secondary, not in the kettle. I guess the hot secondary would work too if primary is done, but I would be worried about over-souring. You might also need to keg or reyeast at bottling since your secondary may have killed the primary yeast.


I'm giving it a go.

Gravity was at 1.010, 4 days in with the 3711 primary, racked to secondary and threw in the Lacto. Been sitting in my outside closet probably at around an average of 100 most of the day. 3 days in, no signs of refermentation but I'd assume lacto in secondary isn't much to look at, right?

As you can see, there are bacteria clumps up at the top of the beer but that's about it. Anyone else tried a warm/hot secondary with lacto?

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1467215975.560594.jpg
 
Lacto is also greatly inhibited by the presence of alcohol. Most strains have almost no alcohol tolerance (<6%). Which is why people almost never pitch lacto to secondary, since it will be competing with a vastly larger yeast population for the same sugars. I would just make a small starter from Orval dregs and pitch it in there -- Brettanomyces will not truly sour a beer but you can achieve some complexity within 3 months.
 
Lacto is also greatly inhibited by the presence of alcohol. Most strains have almost no alcohol tolerance (<6%). Which is why people almost never pitch lacto to secondary, since it will be competing with a vastly larger yeast population for the same sugars. I would just make a small starter from Orval dregs and pitch it in there -- Brettanomyces will not truly sour a beer but you can achieve some complexity within 3 months.

I thought Jolly Pumpkin pitches their sour bugs after doing primary with a Belgian yeast. I have no experience myself but this was my impression and their beers get plenty sour. However, I believe the process is to age their beers for quite a while.
 
Took a sample 2 days ago, with the bugs having been in there only 5 days, and already they are souring the beer. Even my wife who knows very little about beer could easily detect the tartness. It has that almost metallic sort of dry smell that I've experienced in almost every sour beer. Not sure how good of an indication this is (I'm sure I'll hear plenty of "that's not long enough! Don't taste it for 8 months!) but seems like the temperature, and according to my research, warm (85-100 deg F) is OPTIMAL growth temperature for lacto, is speeding things along.

If not, I lost a batch of beer but gained some experience. Win either way.

Oh and the ABV when I pitched the lacto was about 7.2%.
 
If it's getting tart you are on the right track. You definitely won't have to wait 8 months for sacc+lacto. That is more for pedio/brett pitches.
 

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