Cold Crashing Fermented Beers Using Gelatin

[UndeadFred]

I haven't gelatin fined bottles because of the fact I suspect it would take longer to carbonate. As far as doing it cold. I did it warm, then read Brulosopher and tried it post cold crash as suggested. It works a lot better. At risk of being called an ass, try it before you knock it. There is a lot of documentation out there that tells you that it is far more effective when added to cold beer. I didn't believe it either until I tried it. For bottling, I understand totally the uncertainties and difficulties bottling cold crashed beer and I won't do it. In a keg it works fine at serving temp with previous forced carb and sugar primed both. I tried it both ways. As for sanitation... Yeah there is some risk but you will get 90+% with the 15 minutes at 150°F. So it is a calculated gamble that I have not lost yet. Cheers guys...

 

[BlackDog-Brewery]

I never thought this thread was going to generate so much interest, but anyway its really important to me that I have some great new ideas that can shave some time off because I might have been doing an unnecessary step.

Any stirring is too much stirring in my opinion. It works just fine without any stirring.

Gavin C: I am going to trying pitching the gelatin mixture without ANY stirring at all with the hopes it will mix and become fully soluble with the beer and not stratify somewhere in the fermenter.

As far as doing it cold. I did it warm, then read Brulosopher and tried it post cold crash as suggested. It works a lot better. At risk of being called an ass, try it before you knock it.

UndeadFred: I am going to try cold crashing for 24 hours before pitching the Gelatin mix to see if I can shave off a few days before the brew passes my LED flashlight test. If I can see the individual LED segments in the flashlight sooner, then I'll be doing my happy dance.

As for the comments regarding that cold crashing with Gelatin might be effecting the final carbonation (regardless of waiting 2 weeks or 4 weeks, the only thing I can say is that all of my beers have carbed up using this procedure. If I've had a beer that tastes slightly under-carbed, then I make a note in my log and simply add 10% more priming sugar if I decide the recipe is worth brewing again.

Merry Christmas !

and Cheers

 

[brew703]

Priming sugar

Just bring it to a boil. Boil a minute if you feel the need. Any longer is overkill and pointless. I do it in the microwave and look through the door. When I see it boil it's done. Ping! and into the bottling bucket, cider/beer follows right away. (Typically 1 gallon of cider is what I bottle)

That's not enough sugar for a 2 gallon batch targeting 2.4 volumes.

If your using a calculator make sure you enter the warmest temperature the beer got to after CO2 production stopped not the cold-crash temperature.

I'd have used 2oz of dextrose or a similar amount of table sugar assuming my beer got up to 68F which they all do before crashing to 31-32F

Your problem is your priming not gelatin. Also, if you use a little more than needed it's no big deal. It settles out regardless.

When I calculate priming sugar I use the beer temp at that time, not the highest temp that the beer got to. The NB calculator says to use current beer temp, which I used 50. The sugar amt is 1.22 oz and I used 1.25 oz.
Actual fermentation temp go to 65. That's where it sat for 21 days. I then dropped the temps and added the gelatin.
So which temp should I have used in determining the amt of sugar to use?

 

[Gavin C]

When I calculate priming sugar I use the beer temp at that time, not the highest temp that the beer got to. The NB calculator says to use current beer temp, which I used 50. The sugar amt is 1.22 oz and I used 1.25 oz.
Actual fermentation temp go to 65. That's where it sat for 21 days. I then dropped the temps and added the gelatin.
So which temp should I have used in determining the amt of sugar to use?

65 if that's has high as it went. You sure it never got higher than that. You measuring beer or ambient temperature? The temperature max after production of CO2 stops is what determines the residual absorbed CO2 levels and the resulting mass of priming sugar required. It doesn't matter a damn what temperature the beer is subsequently lowered to for priming purposes.

If the calculator told you otherwise those instructions are incorrect. It's just basic physics. Less CO2 is retained in a liquid at higher temps. The current temperature is only important if that is the warmest temp the beer got to.

Plenty of bad info available out there even from seemingly knowledgable sources.

 

[doug293cz]

When I calculate priming sugar I use the beer temp at that time, not the highest temp that the beer got to. The NB calculator says to use current beer temp, which I used 50. The sugar amt is 1.22 oz and I used 1.25 oz.
Actual fermentation temp go to 65. That's where it sat for 21 days. I then dropped the temps and added the gelatin.
So which temp should I have used in determining the amt of sugar to use?

The NB calculator is giving you bad advice. You should use the highest temp the beer got to after fermentation was complete (and CO2 production stopped.) I did a detailed analysis of using highest vs. current temp for priming calculations and posted it here. Even if you don't understand the analysis, the take away is using the current temp (if low) risks under carbing the beer.

Brew on

 

[applescrap]

Thank you doug

 

[applescrap]

I never thought this thread was going to generate so much interest, but anyway its really important to me that I have some great new ideas that can shave some time off because I might have been doing an unnecessary step.



Gavin C: I am going to trying pitching the gelatin mixture without ANY stirring at all with the hopes it will mix and become fully soluble with the beer and not stratify somewhere in the fermenter.



UndeadFred: I am going to try cold crashing for 24 hours before pitching the Gelatin mix to see if I can shave off a few days before the brew passes my LED flashlight test. If I can see the individual LED segments in the flashlight sooner, then I'll be doing my happy dance.

As for the comments regarding that cold crashing with Gelatin might be effecting the final carbonation (regardless of waiting 2 weeks or 4 weeks, the only thing I can say is that all of my beers have carbed up using this procedure. If I've had a beer that tastes slightly under-carbed, then I make a note in my log and simply add 10% more priming sugar if I decide the recipe is worth brewing again.

Merry Christmas !

and Cheers

I think you posted an awesome video and it help me and got me thinking as well as others. Thanks

Merry Christmas

 

[brew703]

I measure with an infrared thermometer. It may have gotten to 68 during fermentation, For what it's worth, I'm on my 15th batch and always used the actual beer temp at time of bottling to determine the amount of priming sugar to use. I never had an issue until I used gelatin. I'm not doubting what you guys are saying it just doesn't make any sense why the issue now and never before.

If I use a temp of 68 in the NB calculator, it shows 1.51 oz of sugar so I can see how that could make a difference. But as noted earlier never had a carbonation issue until I used gelatin.

Will this beer ever carb or is it a loss cause?

 

[Gavin C]

I measure with an infrared thermometer. It may have gotten to 68 during fermentation, For what it's worth, I'm on my 15th batch and always used the actual beer temp at time of bottling to determine the amount of priming sugar to use. I never had an issue until I used gelatin. I'm not doubting what you guys are saying it just doesn't make any sense why the issue now and never before.

If I use a temp of 68 in the NB calculator, it shows 1.51 oz of sugar so I can see how that could make a difference. But as noted earlier never had a carbonation issue until I used gelatin.

Will this beer ever carb or is it a loss cause?

I'd not use that calculator.

I'd go with 1oz of dextrose/gallon of beer for priming at these temps. For a lower carb level use 0.75oz, for a higher level in a heffe for example use 1.25oz

Infrared thermometers are not very accurate for purposes of cooking/brewing. If using one be sure to calibrate shown here. Shiny/reflective surfaces like glass, metal and liquid will have an impact on the accuracy of their readings. I would not use one for brewing.

 

[UndeadFred]

Merry Christmas everyone, or happy whatever you celebrate! We got into a rather heated argument about this at the local homebrew club. It appears that highest temperature is correct for priming. I tried to avoid that in this discussion but that apparently is correct. It is really hard to find a proper reference for that though. However, the actual difference in weight/volume is very little at up to about a 10°F difference so don't sweat a couple of degrees. I think the NB calculator is the best but IMHO the amount it estimates is about 10% high... All within the error of the procedure though...

 

[brew703]

Just checked one after sitting in my laundry room for a couple days. There is some carbonation but it is not complete. At least it is no longer flat and is drinkable.

 

[brew703]

I'd not use that calculator.

I'd go with 1oz of dextrose/gallon of beer for priming at these temps. For a lower carb level use 0.75oz, for a higher level in a heffe for example use 1.25oz

Infrared thermometers are not very accurate for purposes of cooking/brewing. If using one be sure to calibrate shown here. Shiny/reflective surfaces like glass, metal and liquid will have an impact on the accuracy of their readings. I would not use one for brewing.

I checked the accuracy of the infrared per the link you provided and it shows 32.9 degrees.

 

[Terek]

so i did a little test. I cold crashed a brown ale with gelatin for 5 days. Then i bottled the brown and a oat stout the same day. That oat stout i have made many times before. It always takes longer than most beers to carb up. Its been 12 days, and i opened a test bottle of each. The oat stout is carbed perfectly. The brown made a bit of a hiss when opened. I could see co2 in the head space, but the beer is as flat as can be. Note they were both stored in my cellar at 55*, on the same shelf.
This right hear tells me that cold crashing with gelatin does indeed make carbing take much longer. When a beer that takes longer than most carbs up faster than a beer that i have had carb in days, i know its the gelatin. On the bright side, it is super clear

 

[Brew_G]

so i did a little test. I cold crashed a brown ale with gelatin for 5 days. Then i bottled the brown and a oat stout the same day. That oat stout i have made many times before. It always takes longer than most beers to carb up. Its been 12 days, and i opened a test bottle of each. The oat stout is carbed perfectly. The brown made a bit of a hiss when opened. I could see co2 in the head space, but the beer is as flat as can be. Note they were both stored in my cellar at 55*, on the same shelf.
This right hear tells me that cold crashing with gelatin does indeed make carbing take much longer. When a beer that takes longer than most carbs up faster than a beer that i have had carb in days, i know its the gelatin. On the bright side, it is super clear

What were the OG and FG of each beer, and did you use the same yeast for each?

 

[Terek]

What were the OG and FG of each beer, and did you use the same yeast for each?

brown: og 1056, fg 1014. us-04 yeast
stout: og 1060, fg 1012. us-05 yeast

not that big a difference. but that shouldnt effect carbonation that much, does it?

 

[BlackDog-Brewery]

I was gelatin fining for awhile adding warm and then I read the Brulosopher's posts on it and tried it cold. Again, no scientific triangle test, but it seems to work much better. I am not really sure why.. but why fight it

Dear UndeadFred,

You are the man!

It's been 4 months since I commented about decided to try your seemingly unnecessary step of starting the cold crash "24 hours before pitching the gelatin"

IT WORK FOLKS !

I've adjusted my cold crashing procedure on a number of beers since Christmas, and I have to say that pitching the gelatin onto cool beer results in nearly clear beer in just a couple of days.

Same exact recipes . . . Completely different results than when I pitched the fining agent on the start of the cold crash rather than 24 hours later.

One thing that I tried avoiding but will not change (wasn't your comment Undead) was about gently stirring in the gelatin.

After experimenting with adding the gelatin after waiting 24 hours, but without gently stirring it in, when it came to bottling time I found clumps of semi-clear crap at the bottom of the fermenter that was easily drawn into my racking cane when it was lowered to the bottom during the last few seconds.

It was some sort of semi-transparent crap that appeared to be the result of the gelatin, and was getting sucked into the racking cane easier than the trub.

So from that point on, I decided to take my stir stick and gently stir (just near the surface of the beer) for 20 seconds. Then I added the gelatin, and gently stirred near the surface for another 20 seconds.

At no point was the stir stick anywhere near the particulates at the bottom of the fermenter, and the stirring was slow enough were nothing was getting kicked up from the bottom.

To me, this gentle stirring ensured that the fining agent was going to be introduced into solution with the beer and not sink to the bottom like what appears was happening in the first few experiments.

The results speak for themselves !

Thanks again UndeadFred

Cheers

 

[UndeadFred]

You are welcome. I usually cold crash and then fine in the keg in the Keezer unless I have another reason to cold crash in the primary. So getting lumps like that probably do happen but I only (don't?) notice then when cleaning out the keg after it's been kicked. The times I have done this in primary (light lagers usually) I probably have stirred (err.. shaken) just by finagling the carboy or bucket out of the chamber, adding the gelatin and then putting it back in.

So yeah stirring certainly couldn't hurt anything so no offense taken at all. In fact I'll try doing it for awhile and see if I notice a difference...

 

[Rehlgood]

Will gelatin pull lactose out of suspension?

 

[Rehlgood]

Anybody?

 

[PeteNMA]

Lactose should be dissolved in water then added to the beer, it should not be in suspension. I expect that even if you added powdered lactose directly to beer that it would dissolve just fine

 

[Rehlgood]

Lactose should be dissolved in water then added to the beer, it should not be in suspension. I expect that even if you added powdered lactose directly to beer that it would dissolve just fine

I added my lactose during the boil. I guess the proper question would be, will gelatin pull lactose out of solution.

 

[PeteNMA]

No