Cold crash guardian with a lager

[rmr9]

I’m currently fermenting my first true attempt at a lager - a Munich dunkel fermenting with wlp833. I’ve been using a cold crash guardian for the last couple batches of beer (both ales) and I was able to get the bladder filled with CO2 very quickly.

I hooked it up for the dunkel as well, but I’ve noticed it hasn’t filled at all. Is it possible that the lager ferment is by it’s nature slower and so creates CO2 slower? Is it the solubility of CO2 at 48 degrees? I know I should just relax and let it roll but I’m curious!

 

[Immocles]

I can’t say on if there’s a difference, but I would check the valve handle on the bladder. I had mine turned too far at one point and it was actually causing the gas to leak instead of capturing.

Although now that I think on that, it could have been when I was exhaling to the blow off and thought I had the bladder off.

 

[SanPancho]

theres no reason for you to not have co2 just because its a lager yeast. its colder, so the action is typically slower to kick off than at warmer temps, but you should still have plenty of co2 being generated once it kicks off....

 

[rmr9]

I’ll check the valve to make sure it isn’t over too far and make sure all the tubing etc is snug in place.

Maybe I’ll crack the lid on my fermenter and peek inside to see what’s going on too.

 

[Beermeister32]

Lagers are a lot slower than ales. Keep the faith, you are using my favorite lager yeast…. Your Dunkel will turn out fantastic!

 

[rmr9]

Fingers crossed that you’re right! If I can pull off a good dunkel I may be on a lager kick for a while.

I wonder if part of the issue of the bladder not filling could be the seal on my anvil bucket fermenter. It’s possible it wasn’t seated quite right. Honestly that’s been a pain for a while - that ring never wants to go back in place and sit flush.

 

[Bobo1898]

I did a doppelbock with the CCG last year and the bladder filled pretty quickly once fermentation started going. It did take a couple days--I think I was at 48 also. If it's been more than a couple days, then definitely check the valve (especially if you took it apart in between batches).

I had mine turned too far at one point and it was actually causing the gas to leak instead of capturing.

This was definitely a thing if it was turned too far.

 

[rmr9]

I’m sitting at about 96 hours post pitch now. I’ll have to have a look at it again since I noticed krausen on top of the beer when I checked inside. At least it’s fermenting.

 

[Bobo1898]

I’m sitting at about 96 hours post pitch now. I’ll have to have a look at it again since I noticed krausen on top of the beer when I checked inside. At least it’s fermenting.

Do you have a hose coming out of the one-way valve that goes into water or sanitizer? With the bladder closed, you can at least see what kind of outgoing activity you have.

 

[rmr9]

Do you have a hose coming out of the one-way valve that goes into water or sanitizer? With the bladder closed, you can at least see what kind of outgoing activity you have.

Yeah I have a hose going into a jug of sanitizer and I haven’t noticed any bubbling there either, so maybe the issue lies elsewhere?

 

[Brooothru]

Lagers are a lot slower than ales. Keep the faith, you are using my favorite lager yeast…. Your Dunkel will turn out fantastic!

My four favorites: 835X, 833, 860, and old reliable 830. Each has it most appropriate application, even as all can be used almost interchangeably. Right now my 'most favorite' is a toss up between 835X and 833. Last year it was 860. I've won ribbons with each one, but my only Best of Show was with 830.

 

[rmr9]

Checked it again because I couldn’t resist. The beer has a pretty uniform brown krausen on top, still no activity in the jug of sanitizer and no CO2 in the CCG bladder so I’m at a loss. I pitched a big healthy starter and oxygenated for 2 minutes with pure O2 so I’m not sure what the deal is? Maybe fermentation hasn’t rip roared yet?

 

[Chorgey]

You should be seeing some sort of activity in the jug of sanitizer at least. I imagine that you checked the shutoff valve, so that it's in the proper position and that the one way check valve is in the proper direction.

Here's a link from @Bobby_M

 

[rmr9]

Yeah I checked the shutoff valve and it’s in the “on” position, not opened the wrong way

 

[Chorgey]

Yeah I checked the shutoff valve and it’s in the “on” position, not opened the wrong way

How about the seal on the fermentation vessel itself?

 

[rmr9]

I checked the silicone ring around the lid and it seems to be in place, all 4 latches in place, stopper and “L” piece from the stopper to the bladder seem nice and snug as well.

I’m wondering if the problem lies less with the he CCG and more with a sluggish ferment? Maybe the ferment is a bit sluggish plus the solubility of CO2 at 48 degrees means less bag filling? I’m not sure at this point. I can take a gravity reading to at least see if I’ve gotten any drop yet.

 

[rmr9]

So apparently the gravity is down to 1.020 from 1.050…so it’s been fermenting. I added a few hose clamps to the junction points of the CCG hoses so we’ll see what happens. Seems like most of fermentation is done somehow?

 

[rmr9]

Bump to D-rest or let it ride at 48 for another week and a half?

 

[Chorgey]

Is the blue ring that screws onto the bladder seated properly and tight?

Question is, if you bump to D-rest and you still can't get the bladder to fill, how are you going to handle the cold crash?

 

[Immocles]

Gotta be a leak somewhere either in the ccg or the fermenter.
Never used that yeast but if you do a D test, now would be the time but I wouldn’t crash without the fermentation gas

 

[Immocles]

I checked the silicone ring around the lid and it seems to be in place, all 4 latches in place, stopper and “L” piece from the stopper to the bladder seem nice and snug as well.

I’m wondering if the problem lies less with the he CCG and more with a sluggish ferment? Maybe the ferment is a bit sluggish plus the solubility of CO2 at 48 degrees means less bag filling? I’m not sure at this point. I can take a gravity reading to at least see if I’ve gotten any drop yet.

I’ve not used the ccg on a cold ferment but I’ve fermented plenty of lagers at 50F and had much bubble action in the airlock, so it will output plenty of gas, imo.

 

[rmr9]

Is the blue ring that screws onto the bladder seated properly and tight?

Question is, if you bump to D-rest and you still can't get the bladder to fill, how are you going to handle the cold crash?

It looks threaded right and seated correctly. I think if I bump to D-rest and the bladder isn’t filled I’ll use a really low PSI on my regulator and fill it near full and reconnect it for the cold crash.

Hopefully if I have a leak somewhere re-seating the fermentor lid with the seal in place and hose clamping everything will take care of it. I’ll see if the bag is at all filled in the morning and if so, great, if not I’ll raise the temp a few degrees towards the D-rest temp and see if that frees some CO2 from solution to fill the bladder.

 

[Bobby_M]

There's got to be a big leak somewhere if you have nothing bubbling or even slightly filling the bladder.

You can test the seal between the bladder and spigot is to make sure that valve is closed, remove the bladder, blow it up like a balloon and reattach to the spigot and squeeze. Since the valve is closed, you shouldn't be able to squeeze the air out.

 

[rmr9]

I suspect Bobby is right. This morning I checked the bladder and while not full, it does seem to have some gas in it. Likely eliminated the leak with the hose clamps yesterday but it’s possible I lost much of the fermentation gas at this point. I’ll see if it loses enough CO2 from solution during the D-rest and if not I’ll top it off with a little bit from my CO2 tank. Lesson learned: always use hose clamps!

 

[Immocles]

Glad to hear that it’s working again. I absolutely love that product. I ended up buying two and mostly use them for low oxygen kegging as well as crashing.

 

[rmr9]

Glad to hear that it’s working again. I absolutely love that product. I ended up buying two and mostly use them for low oxygen kegging as well as crashing.

I really like mine as well, great value. I’m intrigued by the low oxygen kegging how do you use the CCG for that? Attach a full bladder during kegging to fill the fermentor as the beer leaves?

 

[Immocles]

I hook up the ccg as instructed but don’t use the gas for a cold crash in all instances. My fermenters have spigots and I attach a hose from that to the liquid QD of my keg. It’s a bit of a work in progress as I’ve had to keep the pvr open during transfer but I think with a gas QD and some extra tubing, I can resolve that problem. I can't really purge lines, though. But basically let the bladder fill, and when I go to keg/bottle, I can use the fermentation gas to push the beer out of the fermenter without opening the it. I'm a smaller batch brewer and I can transfer a 3G keg with a bit of gas leftover for a couple bottles. When packaging a 5G batch, I end up having to remove the stopper as I'm closing in on 4gallons.

Like I said, work in progress, but in my limited brewery it has been a very good tool.

 

[rmr9]

Figured I would post a little after action report. I believe I had a leak at the one way valve on the CCG. I used a hose clamp and that seemed to do the trick since the bladder filled to maybe a little under a quarter full. Most of the fermentation gas was lost so I topped the bladder up from my CO2 tank and have been happily lowering the temperature over the last week.

 

[Beermeister32]

Figured I would post a little after action report. I believe I had a leak at the one way valve on the CCG. I used a hose clamp and that seemed to do the trick since the bladder filled to maybe a little under a quarter full. Most of the fermentation gas was lost so I topped the bladder up from my CO2 tank and have been happily lowering the temperature over the last week.

Living in a town named Germantown, you 'gotta let us know how this one turns out!

 

[rmr9]

Living in a town named Germantown, you 'gotta let us know how this one turns out!

Ha let’s hope the town name rubs off! So far the samples I’ve taken taste very promising. I’m hoping to get 3-4 weeks of lagering in on it and then maybe enter it in a pair of competitions for the heck of it.