Coco nibs in secondary fermentation

[Rladd]

I brewed an imperial brown ale, 8.1%ABV. I put 4oz of coco nibs and one cut up Madagascar vanilla bean in secondary fermenter (5 gal).

I want a subtle coco taste, something noticiable, but nothing overbearing.

I was thinking of keeping it in secondary for 7-10 days (leaning more towards 7). What are your guys thoughts? Longer? Shorter?

 

[Casedeville]

It sounds like the right amount of cacao nibs for a subtle contribution. The timing you suggested is plenty to extract the flavor out of them, but always let your palate be your guide. Taste it after 2 days to see if you like it, then every day after to get a feel for the time it takes to extract your preferred flavor profile. It'll be a great learning experience and you'll be able to dial in your beer exactly how you want it.

 

[Rladd]

Thank you! I will have to do that. Would that be to much exposure tho? With opening and shutting the carboy?

 

[joegbeer]

It sounds like the right amount of cacao nibs for a subtle contribution. The timing you suggested is plenty to extract the flavor out of them, but always let your palate be your guide. Taste it after 2 days to see if you like it, then every day after to get a feel for the time it takes to extract your preferred flavor profile. It'll be a great learning experience and you'll be able to dial in your beer exactly how you want it.

I totally get the intent of your recommendation, but doesn't that risk serious oxidation of the beer due to repeatedly opening the secondary conditioning vessel? Maybe my concern is invalid.

My recommendation (and I'm a novice homebrewer) would be to pick a duration. 7 days sounds completely reasonable. Go for it and use that as your baseline. For subsequent batches adjust the adjunct soak time (+/- 1 day) based on your experience of tasting the previous batch results.

 

[Rladd]

To minimize exposure, I think I'll test it in a week. If I like it I'll bottle. If not, I'll go a few more days (around day 10) and bottle. Although, I really feel it'll be right on day 7.

Then I'll get a feel for how it'll taste after a week. And I'll be able to gauge it better next time.

I'll try posting after I test in a week to let you know.

Thank you guys!

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I believe you could let four ounces of nibs in five gallons of beer sit for an indefinite period and not have the cocoa character be overbearing.

I soak 8 ounces of nibs in enough dark rum to cover for 4-5 days, dump that all in with 5 gallons of stout, and let the fermentor sit for at least a month before kegging.

It's just about right to my palate - obviously there, but not huge.
I used 4 ounces of nibs in the first batch and doubled it from then on...

Cheers!

 

[Casedeville]

Thank you! I will have to do that. Would that be to much exposure tho? With opening and shutting the carboy?

It's really not that much exposure opening the carboy for a sample. You have already gotten way more exposure by racking to secondary, so any small amount of oxygen getting into the carboy during a sample will pale in comparison (assuming you're using a thief and not stirring the beer around). You'll also get exponentially more when you keg or bottle the beer, so don't worry about sampling if you have good sanitary practices.

The more your sample early on in your brewing journey, the less you'll need to sample on future batches because you'll know what to expect. I sampled a lot during my first year of brewing, but 5 years later I only sample when it goes into the fermenter, and then again when it goes into the keg (for most standard beers). For sours I'll sample after 8 months, then a year.

Also keep in mind that darker beers with more highly kilned malts have more anti-oxidants in them which help resist/cover-up oxidation better than lightly kilned malts. In fact, many people will age dark beers to open them up and get some pleasant flavors and aromas from a slight oxidation of those darker malts.

If it were me, I would be adding the cocoa nibs to the keg and leaving them until it was empty. There's only so much flavor/aroma they will contribute for a given amount, so leaving them in there for 10 days or 10 weeks won't make any difference. If they are too intense, then scale back the amount, not the time. I'd also highly recommend you consider omitting your secondary if you're worried about oxidation. There really isn't a need for it.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]I'd also highly recommend you consider omitting your secondary if you're worried about oxidation. There really isn't a need for it.

"Well, actually"

It's debatable, of course, but unless your stout is exceptionally clear going into the fermentor, there'll likely be quite a deep trub/yeast/detritus layer at the bottom post-primary fermentation. Intuitively, it seems likely one could literally bury 4 to 8 ounces of nibs in that soft and deep layer of cruft, such that the nib's character contribution could be severely attenuated.

Errant or otherwise, that thinking leaves my chocolate stout one of a very few recipes that I rack twice...

Cheers!

 

[Rladd]

Thank you all for your input! The brew turned out amazing!

 

[Casedeville]

"Well, actually"

It's debatable, of course, but unless your stout is exceptionally clear going into the fermentor, there'll likely be quite a deep trub/yeast/detritus layer at the bottom post-primary fermentation. Intuitively, it seems likely one could literally bury 4 to 8 ounces of nibs in that soft and deep layer of cruft, such that the nib's character contribution could be severely attenuated.

Errant or otherwise, that thinking leaves my chocolate stout one of a very few recipes that I rack twice...

Cheers!

Haha! I liked your "Well, actually" comment.

Yeah, it's debatable for sure. In the end, it's up to the brewer and whatever works best for his process.

Just for the sake of debate, I've never seen cocoa nibs sink. If they do end up sinking after they get saturated, you'd probably have already extracted all the flavor from them. Even then, I don't think they have the ability to burrow into a yeast cake, which means they would likely sit on top of it, still infusing their flavor into the beer.

Have you ever done a side-by-side experiment to see if it makes a difference for your stout? My guess is that the flavor contribution of the nibs is exactly the same, but the detriment of the oxidation introduced during racking would be noticeably higher after 6 months in a bottle.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Have you ever done a side-by-side experiment to see if it makes a difference for your stout? My guess is that the flavor contribution of the nibs is exactly the same, but the detriment of the oxidation introduced during racking would be noticeably higher after 6 months in a bottle.

Oxidation? Moi? It is to laugh - I'm like the King of Oxidation-Avoidance around here
CO2 pushes to purged receivers, always.


But, to your question, no, I've always racked the stout to a fresh carboy before hitting it with the nibs.
Pretty sure that's what was going on in that pic...

Cheers!

 

[Rladd]

The coco nibs all fell to the bottom by day 7..there was a thick cake of coco in the carboy when I was cleaning.

I rack pretty much every one of my beers into a secondary. I like the extra step in keeping the beer clean. Also, I'll keep it in mind with checking the beer in fermentation. Thank you for all the advice!

 

[obsessedbrewing]

I rack pretty much every one of my beers into a secondary. I like the extra step in keeping the beer clean.

If you like clear beer, I would highly recommend using gelatin instead of a secondary. Racking to secondary doesn't help clear the beer any more than leaving it in primary for a longer period of time. Some people worry about leaving the beer on the yeast for too long, but I have left beers in primary for up to 6 months and I haven't had a problem with autolysis. Not sure where the upper limit is, but an extra two weeks certainly won't hurt you in primary.

The irony is that you mention keeping the beer "clean" by adding the extra racking step, yet the extra transfer step is more likely to introduce a contaminant than it is to keep it clean. I'm sure you're using good sanitation practices, but just something to think about.

With all that said, homebrewing is about doing what you love and enjoying the process. I support any decision you make that leads you to that end!

 

[obsessedbrewing]

Oxidation? Moi? It is to laugh - I'm like the King of Oxidation-Avoidance around here
CO2 pushes to purged receivers, always.

Holy smokes! That's some serious oxidation avoidance there! Well done, man.

If you enjoy doing that, maybe you'll find this article about avoiding oxygen in the mash interesting. I don't do this as it just isn't feasible with my current system, but it sounds like something you'd enjoy.

 

[day_trippr]

Holy smokes! That's some serious oxidation avoidance there! Well done, man.

Meh, nbd, lots of folks do as much.
Now, with the "cold-crash-under-positive-CO2-pressure" thing I take it to another level.
Lots of threads touching on that one around here

Mash oxidation? Good grief...

Cheers! ("Just when you thought you had it all covered..." )

 

[Rladd]

When you add gelatin don't you need to cold crash it? In Temps around 34°?

 

[Rladd]

I don't have any way to control the temperature of my carboy more than the AC in my appt. We keep it at 68 so my carboy stays around 68-70.

 

[day_trippr]

When you add gelatin don't you need to cold crash it? In Temps around 34°?

Yes, from all I've read, gelatin works best when it's bloomed and then stirred into already-chilled beer...

Cheers!

 

[obsessedbrewing]

When you add gelatin don't you need to cold crash it? In Temps around 34°?

Yes, gelatin works best in the mid 30s, so never mind if you don't have temp control.

If you don't have a way to control fermentation temperatures, I'd say that would be your next purchase toward making better beer. It's a highly debatable topic, but IMHO, ferm temp control is one of the top 3 most important factors in making good beer. You will notice a huge improvement in the taste of your beer if you can find a way to closely control ferm temp.

 

[Rladd]

I would agree..I would love a way to control the temp of my fermentation. I just bought all the equipment to make the move to all grain. So a fermentation chamber of some sort is next on my list!

 

[Yeastieboy]

I have been fermenting a chocolate milk stout. Rather than using a secondary this time, I just tossed the nibs (4oz) into the primary after three weeks. It's now going on week 4 in the primary. Will probably keg next weekend (week 5) and then age it in the keg for a while. Been getting away from secondary for darker beers lately.