Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

[-MG-]

I ended up racking an APA to a secondary sanke to dry hop, pulled in just enough yeast after rolling the keg around that by the next day the PSI had built back up to 5 psi and holding there. Made me feel better since I was worried about a lot of head space on a 10 gallon batch in there.

 

[Lennie]

Lennie, I'd love to move to a brewhemoth from a sanke but the ducks are not in a row...

When you get the spare cash I'd go for it. They are definitely a sweet ride for your brew. Probably a little easier to deal with than a sanke. Of course I dind't know I needed one until I got it.

 

[-MG-]

Lennie -

Did you have to do anything above and beyond to your brewhemoth to work with this method? What are comfortable PSI's for the tank?

What extra attachments did you have to buy for it? I'm thinking of just using it for Ale's and keeping it at room temperature.

 

[ohararp]

So, I am trying out a couple of different approaches here. I ordered up a 4" tall triclover from brewers hardware and welded this onto the bottom of a sanke. I kept the standard 2" sanke hole, but will use this with a 90 triclover tube and ball valve. Coupled with a wheeled stand this will give me a nice sanke "conical" type setup. I am awaiting the 2" ball valve and am working on the stand design in preparation for sending it off to the waterjet place in town. I just completed a pressure test with the current setup. The 4" cap has 2-1/4" npt half couplers welded on to allow for a pressure gauge and pressure relief valve. There is a corny keg adapter welded on that allows for a gas corny post to screw on and allow for a quick disconnect line. I am gonna add a 3/8" compression fitting to allow for simply sampling/pulling liquid from on top of the trub/yeast vs just using the bottom dump valve.

 

[GNBrews]

I know that it will bleed off excess pressure. The problem is that mine seems to not be able to maintain the set-point. It's as if the ball bearing doesn't make a positive seal in its seat. So if a bunch of gas is being produced it works as designed, by compressing the spring and ball this bleeding off excess. It seems to leak a bit of gas at al times though, maybe mines defective? I ordered the plastic version others use. It seems to have a silicone seal in it; which may perform better than the steel to brass fit of my current unit.

Pickles - I've never had any luck with those cheap valves. I bought a few to use on some counter-pressure bottle fillers, and they all leaked, even when screwed all the way down to maximum tension (with the stop removed).

 

[Lennie]

Lennie -

Did you have to do anything above and beyond to your brewhemoth to work with this method? What are comfortable PSI's for the tank?

What extra attachments did you have to buy for it? I'm thinking of just using it for Ale's and keeping it at room temperature.

No they're pressure tested to well above what you'll want to work with so its safe. I have the pressure attachment that goes on the small triclamp on top of the tank. It consists of a relief valve (added safety) and a corny gas QD, I hook my spunding valve to the QD or add CO2 from a tank if necessary.

 

[CS223]

I've got an IPA fermenting in a corny at the moment, US-05 yeast. It's 4 gallons of wort so there's a little head space. I have my spunding valve set and it's been at 6 PSI since Sat. evening. I'm stuck with swamp cooling and have been keeping a temp of 70 or less with ice bottles. If I've read this thread correctly, I should start cranking my pressure up a few PSI every day until I'm at close to 35 PSI in two weeks. Is this correct?

If I manage to get my keezer up & running, would I back down the pressure based on the keezer temperature and the chart provided elsewhere in this tread? For example 12.5 PSI for 35 degrees?

Am I going to run into any over carbonation problems if I end up at 35 PSI after a 2 week ferment then cool to a much lower temperature, assuming I reduce the pressure accordingly?

 

[kpr121]

I've got an IPA fermenting in a corny at the moment, US-05 yeast. It's 4 gallons of wort so there's a little head space. I have my spunding valve set and it's been at 6 PSI since Sat. evening. I'm stuck with swamp cooling and have been keeping a temp of 70 or less with ice bottles. If I've read this thread correctly, I should start cranking my pressure up a few PSI every day until I'm at close to 35 PSI in two weeks. Is this correct?

Sort of. You definitely want to crank the pressure gradually toward the end of fermentation if you want to capture some or all of the carbonation. But if you are fermenting at 70F then it is probably going gangbusters in there. You should probably take a hydrometer sample to figure out where the attenuation is at, otherwise you may miss your opportunity to crank the pressure if it is already at FG. The good thing is that if you missed it, just add some priming sugar and set your spunding valve accordingly.

If I manage to get my keezer up & running, would I back down the pressure based on the keezer temperature and the chart provided elsewhere in this tread? For example 12.5 PSI for 35 degrees?

Yep, you can follow that chart for volumes of CO2 at different pressures vs temperature. I use this one http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com/ForceCarbonation.html

Am I going to run into any over carbonation problems if I end up at 35 PSI after a 2 week ferment then cool to a much lower temperature, assuming I reduce the pressure accordingly?

No, the entire system will function in a steady state according to that chart once the beer has absorbed all the CO2 it can. In other words, if you have 2.23 volumes of CO2 at 30 psi and 70 degrees and do not change anything other than dropping the temperature to 33 degrees, the pressure will decrease and the gauge should read approximately 6 psi.

 

[CS223]

Sort of. You definitely want to crank the pressure gradually toward the end of fermentation if you want to capture some or all of the carbonation. But if you are fermenting at 70F then it is probably going gangbusters in there. You should probably take a hydrometer sample to figure out where the attenuation is at, otherwise you may miss your opportunity to crank the pressure if it is already at FG. The good thing is that if you missed it, just add some priming sugar and set your spunding valve accordingly.

Is there a preferred attenuation point, for example 50%, where it's best to start cranking up the pressure? I'll pull a sample off tonite & see where it's at.

 

[Lennie]

I start at 7psi and crank up to 15psi after a few days, just because a lot of the fermentation is done by then and I've failed to get to 15psi when I waited a week before. I don't think 15psi hurts the yeast. If I wanted to get to 30psi I'd take a gravity sample and figure on cranking when it was maybe 5pts above my expected FG.

 

[kpr121]

Yepp I was going to say within 5 points of anticipated FG.

 

[CS223]

I start at 7psi and crank up to 15psi after a few days, just because a lot of the fermentation is done by then and I've failed to get to 15psi when I waited a week before. I don't think 15psi hurts the yeast. If I wanted to get to 30psi I'd take a gravity sample and figure on cranking when it was maybe 5pts above my expected FG.

Looks like I'm there then. 72 hours after pitching, I've gone from 1.036 to 1.018, package instructions says it's done when the FG is constant below 1.014. I'll crank it up.

 

[pickles]

Looks like I'm there then. 72 hours after pitching, I've gone from 1.036 to 1.018, package instructions says it's done when the FG is constant below 1.014. I'll crank it up.

Id definitely crank things up. Is that a 3% beer?

 

[badbrew]

When do you take the first sample for gravity? I am a little concerned about draining the yeast/ trub and my corny dip tube is regular length. I started on Saturday night with the caribou slobber extract recipe from NB. It is supposed to be 1.052 OG.

Also, strange thought: can you harvest the yeast/ trub from the first pour through the picnic valve? Or is it too risky?

 

[Lennie]

I would sanitize the picnic tap and hose first, but I've done this successfully (only once so far though). I do think its a better practice to transfer the beer to a serving keg, then harvest your yeast.

I don't usually take gravity samples, I am satisfied getting to 15psi and then if I miss the chance to go to 30psi naturally I just put it on gas.

 

[badbrew]

I would sanitize the picnic tap and hose first, but I've done this successfully (only once so far though). I do think its a better practice to transfer the beer to a serving keg, then harvest your yeast.

I don't usually take gravity samples, I am satisfied getting to 15psi and then if I miss the chance to go to 30psi naturally I just put it on gas.

I have it at 7 psi. I unplugged the line yesterday to check if fermentation was still going, and when I went to plug in again, I noticed that my spunding setup was down to 5 so now I suspect a possible leak in the line (possibly at the hose clamps. I think I am going to unplug today and then wait 3 or 4 hours and then adjust the pressure to 20 or higher if it allows. If it won't go up that high, then so be it.

 

[Lennie]

I have issues with my spundings too, I guess thats one of the potential pitfalls of doing this. I envy the guys with their valves and gauges screwed into welded nuts on triclamp fittings, those look like they would not be likely to leak. I'm going to reconsider my setups both for the Brewhemoth and for my cornies. But while the ferment is going it really doesn't matter too much, I'm still getting pressure. And as long as the fermentor has a separate pressure relief valve its safe enough. In fact I think you can take the spunding valve off late and then just stick it on temporarily to see where you are and bleed off excess CO2, then remove it again.

 

[CS223]

Id definitely crank things up. Is that a 3% beer?

I believe it's 4% or a few tenths more, have to look at the notes. I could taste the diacetyl in the sample that I drew. It was up to 18 PSI this morning. It will be four days from pitching. I'm going to let it go for 14 days before I bottle (unless the keezer is finished before then, then it will stay kegged). I was surprised that I didn't get any trub in the sample, it was cloudy but not out of the ordinary as referenced to my last IPA.

I've been setting my valve on an empty keg. I just use my air compressor to pump the keg up to 40 PSI or so, then adjust the valve and let it set for a bit while I do something else, then come back and check & fine tune. When it's dialed in, I move it back to the ferm keg. I've been pleased with the valve performance. There's a post of it's construction in the DIY forum.

ETA:Hit 34 PSI 120 hours (5days) from pitching. OG was 1.036, increased the pressure at 1.018 estimated FG 1.014 or lower. It averaged about 5 PSI every 12 hours.

 

[badbrew]

Well today is day 14 of my trial batch and I have to say that the caribou slobber seems to be going pretty damn good. It smells and tastes good. I am sitting at 30 psi and I think the FG is reached but I don't want to take a gravity reading and risk not getting back up again. So when should I check in this case? In other words, how long do you guys go at 30?

 

[Lennie]

You should be able to get a gravity sample without losing much pressure. Or what I've done is to jsut let it go three weeks and keg.

 

[CS223]

I'm at two weeks as of today. I took a gravity sample last night, 1.010. I'm at 34 PSI 70 deg, it dropped about 1+ PSI after drawing the sample, pretty much all foam which is to be expected, nice carbonation. I'm going to cold crash it, then counter pressure transfer it to the serving keg. Taste wise, it's ready. No diacetyl, no other funky taste, autolysis etc. It crept back up to 34 PSI over night. I'm pretty darn pleased with this technique.

 

[pickles]

Ive done two batches with this technique. Both with sufficient amount of S-05.The first batch (1.042 OG) finished in 6 days @ 68F. My second batch (1.065 OG) has been in primary for 7 days, I'm about 50% of the way to FG. I have this batch at 64F (my standard ferm temp for S-05 prior to using this technoque) and it's at 15psi now. I went 2 days no pressure, 3 days 5psi, and 2 days 15psi. I should have taken a gravity reading before ramping up pressure but didn't have time with work. What have you guys found to be typical fermentation schedule with S-05 or similar yeast? I'm pretty sure I could have fermented higher and not had any off flavors.

 

[badbrew]

Ive done two batches with this technique. Both with sufficient amount of S-05.The first batch (1.042 OG) finished in 6 days @ 68F. My second batch (1.065 OG) has been in primary for 7 days, I'm about 50% of the way to FG. I have this batch at 64F (my standard ferm temp for S-05 prior to using this technoque) and it's at 15psi now. I went 2 days no pressure, 3 days 5psi, and 2 days 15psi. I should have taken a gravity reading before ramping up pressure but didn't have time with work. What have you guys found to be typical fermentation schedule with S-05 or similar yeast? I'm pretty sure I could have fermented higher and not had any off flavors.

Did you use only 1 pack at 1.065? I'm doing the same gravity tonight with a starter of wl001. Then I'm doing a 1.070 pitched on this cake if all goes well.

 

[lagavulin]

Hey guys. I use a 15.5 G corny for my ferments and have been transferring wort via 1/2'' silicone tubing, hooking the QD on the corny and letting the wort drop into the fermenter (photo below).

I just read that wort only has so much foaming capability and that a brewer should limit foaming throughout the brewing process. Well, the above process produces a lot of foam.

So, is there anyone who ferments in a corny who has a method of limiting the foaming with transfers?

I'd consider rigging something to the dip tube, but I'm concerned that there would be too much constriction.

Suppose an option would be to cut a long enough piece of tubing to run from the chiller to the bottom of the fermenter - but I'm not too keen on all that tubing kicking it in the wort.


Cheers!!

 

[cino101]

Foam right before yeast pitch is good, yeast like oxygen. I do a free drop into my 10 and 15 gal cornies, usually just clamp the free end of the hose to one of the handles and let the end hang just inside the mouth of the lid opening.

 

[lagavulin]

I am using an in-line oxygenation system to oxygenate.

My concern arises from this article in BYO:

http://***********/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques

...

Quote:

Lastly, homebrewers who keg their beer should be aware that foam positive molecules can get used up; when foam is created. Thus, if you shake your keg to carbonate it, you may be dipping into your pool of foam makers for your beer.

 

[CS223]

Ive done two batches with this technique. Both with sufficient amount of S-05.The first batch (1.042 OG) finished in 6 days @ 68F. My second batch (1.065 OG) has been in primary for 7 days, I'm about 50% of the way to FG. I have this batch at 64F (my standard ferm temp for S-05 prior to using this technoque) and it's at 15psi now. I went 2 days no pressure, 3 days 5psi, and 2 days 15psi. I should have taken a gravity reading before ramping up pressure but didn't have time with work. What have you guys found to be typical fermentation schedule with S-05 or similar yeast? I'm pretty sure I could have fermented higher and not had any off flavors.

This batch I started at 1.036 with US-05 pitched at 72 deg. I set it for 5 PSI. & swamp cooled to 65. 72 hours later my gravity was at 1.018, I had some diacetyl in the sample. I set the pressure to 34 PSI and it took about 48 hours to reach that point. At the 2 week point, my gravity was 1.010 no diacetyl or off flavors. A few posts back you will see where I was instructed to bump up the pressure from 5 PSI when I got within 5 points of the FG. Don't know if raising the pressure too soon is affecting your fermentation or not. S-05 has worked awesome for me.

 

[Mysticmead]

I am using an in-line oxygenation system to oxygenate.

My concern arises from this article in BYO:

http://***********/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques

...

Quote:

Lastly, homebrewers who keg their beer should be aware that foam positive molecules can get used up; when foam is created. Thus, if you shake your keg to carbonate it, you may be dipping into your pool of foam makers for your beer.

BYO may know more about brewing than I do, however after shaking my kegs to carbonate for years, ALL of my beers have had excellent head retention. I guess it may be one of those YMMV things

 

[WortMonger]

Hey guys. I use a 15.5 G corny for my ferments and have been transferring wort via 1/2'' silicone tubing, hooking the QD on the corny and letting the wort drop into the fermenter (photo below).

I just read that wort only has so much foaming capability and that a brewer should limit foaming throughout the brewing process. Well, the above process produces a lot of foam.

So, is there anyone who ferments in a corny who has a method of limiting the foaming with transfers?

I'd consider rigging something to the dip tube, but I'm concerned that there would be too much constriction.

Suppose an option would be to cut a long enough piece of tubing to run from the chiller to the bottom of the fermenter - but I'm not too keen on all that tubing kicking it in the wort.


Cheers!!

Nice oxygen concentrator! I see these at work all the time and wonder how they would compare to the O2 bottles. How do they work, and by that I am asking if it only introduces oxygen or if it is simply a smaller version of an air compressor?

 

[Lennie]

And is grandma gasping for air while you're aerating?

Nice setup!

 

[jeepinjeepin]

Nice oxygen concentrator! I see these at work all the time and wonder how they would compare to the O2 bottles. How do they work, and by that I am asking if it only introduces oxygen or if it is simply a smaller version of an air compressor?

I'm not sure if they can run indefinitely at a certain output level, but I am fairly sure they have to be maintained periodically with bottled O2 when running at higher rates.

 

[lagavulin]

Thanks Wortmonger and Lennie.

They output pure O2 and run at 0.5 - 5 LPM so plenty of O2.

They can run all day and night for years if the filters are changed periodically. With brewing, they probably need changed every 10 years ($12 filter). I set mine for 1 LPM and leave mine on for 5-10 minutes during transfer from the BK.


BTW I thinned my mash to 1.80 quarts per lb of grain. My temps were accurate and my number were right on. I have since changed my defaults in beersmith accordingly.


Cheers!

 

[WortMonger]

Damn, I am getting one of these then! I read up and saw they use zeolite towers to scrub nitrogen from the air and compressing it in a storage tank (such as like an air compressor), then you get pure O2 in a constant stream eliminating the use for bottles. Makes since, since the biggest users at my facility all have them and only use bottled when they are away from their rooms. I would never buy one for $800, but if I could get one that was to be discarded then it would be way more cost effective than bottled O2.

 

[lagavulin]

Wort,

That's exactly what I did. A guy on craigslist posted one he no longer needed. He was asking $150 and I talked him down to $125. I can roll it around where I need it and don't have to worry about tanks. It should be a great investment, assuming it lasts.


Cheers!

 

[WortMonger]

Well, seeing as they only use aluminum silicate as a filtering mechanism to scrub nitrogen... seems pretty easy to me. I have thrown several of these away at work. They pay for them and die, the family leaves them. Maybe I can make a few bucks.

 

[CS223]

I cold crashed the keg, it's sitting at 35 deg F, it will be 48 hours as of this evening. Pressure this morning was 23 PSI which is too high based on the carbonation table so it's overcarbed.

According to the chart, I should be around 10 PSI for forced carbonation at that temp.

I want to counter pressure transfer to the serving keg.

Should I counter pressure transfer at the 23 PSI level or should I adjust the spunding valve down to 10 or 5 PSI, let it set for a week and then transfer?

 

[badbrew]

I cold crashed the keg, it's sitting at 35 deg F, it will be 48 hours as of this evening. Pressure this morning was 23 PSI which is too high based on the carbonation table so it's overcarbed.

According to the chart, I should be around 10 PSI for forced carbonation at that temp.

I want to counter pressure transfer to the serving keg.

Should I counter pressure transfer at the 23 PSI level or should I adjust the spunding valve down to 10 or 5 PSI, let it set for a week and then transfer?

Did you purge the co2 in the head space? Also 5 gallons is a lot to chill. It might not be at 35 yet in 40 hours.

 

[badbrew]

I just learned the hard way that a blow off tube is needed for this. Liquid is shooting half way through my spunding valve tube about 3' or so. It did get almost all the way through (6' or so) before I uncoiled it. And this is with 10 drops of fermcap. I think it might be the 1.073 OG or something.

 

[ohararp]

badbrew, I took a lot of high gravity brews (1.070-1.110). I have some pretty violent fermenting in the first couple of days. I had similar trouble with a 1.085 dipa. Blowoff for a day or two then pressurize seems to be the way to go.

 

[MalFet]

badbrew, I took a lot of high gravity brews (1.070-1.110). I have some pretty violent fermenting in the first couple of days. I had similar trouble with a 1.085 dipa. Blowoff for a day or two then pressurize seems to be the way to go.

I actually find I get much less blowoff with 5 lb of pressure or so. The key here, though, is to have some kind of water trap to keep the krausen out of your spending valve. People on this thread recommended a water filter housing and it has been working great. I've just done a few batches of 1.080+ beers with big starters. Even filled to the weld line and fermented warm, I only lost 2-3oz of liquid each time.