Closed loop transfer....conical to keg build question

[Turfgrass]

My grain to glass procedures have improved greatly over the last six months. Finally I broke down and upgraded from a carboy to a conical fermenter. Currently fermenting in the conical is a NE IPA. While fermentation is happening, I need to assemble a few transfer hoses for a closed loop transfer that is oxygen free.

I have the hose that connects the co2 tank to the gas manifold of the conical figured out. I now need to assemble the conical to keg hose. It will start at the 1.5” tc port of conical, but I’m stuck on how to construct the rest. I know it will end with a beer out connection at the keg. I do have quick connect tc fitting (pictured) that I’d like to use along with 1/2” I.d. tubing. Any suggestions on how to bush down .5” id tubing to a keg quick connect?

Thanks as always.

 

[IslandLizard]

Here are some ideas:

• Use an MFL keg QD with a brass MFL adapter that will give you a 1/2" or 3/8" connection out, and adapt to that.
• A John Guest MFL to push adapter and take it from there.
• In a pinch you could slide a short piece of vinyl tubing over a keg QD's barb to thicken it up, possibly enough to make a tight connection with your 1/2" hose. Clamp it down. You can get QDs that have a 3/8" barb, that will get you most of the way.

Always do a 'dry run' with water or Starsan to make sure it works.

 

[SEndorf]

A Reducing Hose splice might work.

 

[Gravitysucks]

You might want to take a look at this fitting. The threads are compatible with the swivel nut beer line fittings.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc15flare.htm

This is what I have for transfers.

 

[WBCo]

I went through a few iterations on my conical before I found something I was truly happy with. I still tinker with it from time to time, but overall I have no complaints.

I use a Spike CF10 with their gas manifold on the lid. I have a hose connected to the gas manifold via a gas disconnect. The other end of the hose is connected to the 'outlet' side of a clean and sanitized keg via a liquid disconnect. This allows me to completely purge the line and the keg with CO2 from fermentation. On the end of the racking arm I have TC/gas disconnect fitting. When I am ready to transfer I move the disconnect from the gas manifold to the racking arm and away she goes. I'll typically hook up my CO2 to the gas manifold and keep a constant 2 or 3 psi on the conical to keep it flowing. This was the simplest way I could come up with the ensure that my beer doesn't touch air until it is poured out of the tap.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BoIQhIWg61K/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

Here's a quick pic of what I am talking about. Double batch fermenting in the pic so I'm purging 2 kegs.

 

[mongoose33]

Couple more ideas:

I typically use this attached to the fermenter and then connect a jumper to move the beer from the fermenter to the keg.

My objection to it is cleaning it. Has to be disassembled to do so, and you need to attach it to a TC port to get a grip on it.

I'm going to try another approach. I'll attach one of these to the fermenter:

And then use a camlock connector like so to connect to that, the other side being connected to a QD:

Attach silicone tubing, terminate the other side with a larger-sized swivel nut, and attach that to the QD.

I have the parts to do all that, just haven't taken the time to make it up. I expect it to be easier to use (and to clean!). But we'll see.

 

[Turfgrass]

Thanks for all of your suggestions. I ended up ordering from brewhardware today and went with 1.5”tc to .25” mfl. and a few other misc items. The wort has been fermenting for just over 48 hours, so there will be plenty of time until I need my new fittings.

 

[Nagorg]

Question... How do you keep from overfilling your keg in a closed transfer? I love the idea of this but am not sure how I'd know when to stop before getting it too full.

 

[Turfgrass]

I went through a few iterations on my conical before I found something I was truly happy with. I still tinker with it from time to time, but overall I have no complaints.

I use a Spike CF10 with their gas manifold on the lid. I have a hose connected to the gas manifold via a gas disconnect. The other end of the hose is connected to the 'outlet' side of a clean and sanitized keg via a liquid disconnect. This allows me to completely purge the line and the keg with CO2 from fermentation. On the end of the racking arm I have TC/gas disconnect fitting. When I am ready to transfer I move the disconnect from the gas manifold to the racking arm and away she goes. I'll typically hook up my CO2 to the gas manifold and keep a constant 2 or 3 psi on the conical to keep it flowing. This was the simplest way I could come up with the ensure that my beer doesn't touch air until it is poured out of the tap.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BoIQhIWg61K/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

Here's a quick pic of what I am talking about. Double batch fermenting in the pic so I'm purging 2 kegs.

I had forgot about taking advantage of the free co2 to purge a keg of oxygen. Just finished setting that up and co2 has already started pushing into a bucket of starsan.

When I cold crash the conical the keg will hold the co2 inside with the keg disconnects removed......then once I’m ready to transfer I will attach the proper fittings. Do I then just hold the poppet up as I transfer or do something off of the gas out from the keg? I do have a sounding valve too.

 

[mongoose33]

Question... How do you keep from overfilling your keg in a closed transfer? I love the idea of this but am not sure how I'd know when to stop before getting it too full.

I cold crash my beer before transfer; I watch the condensation line on the side of the keg as the keg fills to judge when it's full.

 

[Nagorg]

I watch the condensation line on the side of the keg

Yeah, I cold crash too (most of the time) and had thought that might work. But I cant always count on a solid condensation line due to varying ambient temp and humidity. Not to mention, I'm not sure how fast that line forms in comparison to the rate of fill...

So, no magic here? I wouldn't want to fill until beer started coming out of the gas side...

 

[gromitdj]

So, no magic here? I wouldn't want to fill until beer started coming out of the gas side...

That's exactly what I do... I put a disconnect with a short piece of tubing on and fill until I see beer in the line. Hasn't caused a problem yet.

 

[Turfgrass]

 

[Turfgrass]

I’ll be cold crashing in a spare refrigerator in the garage. To avoid the vacuum 5psi of co2 is added to the tank. I assume I leave the tank connected throughout the entire cold crash? I would have to place the tank in the fridge.

Also it doesn’t say when to stop flow when filling the keg in the video. Go until it comes out the gas side or do you want a headspace?

 

[Nagorg]

Go until it comes out the gas side or do you want a headspace?

I'd prefer a little headspace. Mainly because:

1) If I filled all the way up until beer came out of the gas side, that would be slightly more than 5G. Don't get me wrong, more beer is a good thing but it throws a small kink into my current batch size split for 10G. I can adjust for that though.
2) My kegs have different size dip tubes attached to the gas side. A couple of them extend down a little further than the others, closer to my normal fill level. This actually would help me keep some headspace now that I think of it...
3) I *think* my regulator has check valves but I'd rather not test that. Just doesn't seem like a good idea to increase the chances of beer entering my gas line, manifold etc..
4) Doesn't a small amount of headspace actually help with carbonation since it allows for gas/liquid surface exposure? I could be wrong on that one but its what I believe anyway. I could get a bright tank I guess but $$$$... lol

 

[Nagorg]

Also it doesn’t say when to stop flow when filling the keg in the video.

LOL Just watched that video... It actually doesn't show a "closed pressure transfer" at all. HA! Look at around 1:17.

Okay... He does show it later in the video but that non-closed transfer caught my eye right off the bat. It is left a little undefined though about when to stop other than "when you are finished transferring". :| But the tube attached to the gas line going into a bucket pretty much implies until it comes out. I may need to try this.

 

[Turfgrass]

That’s what I’m thinking and wouldn’t allow for headspace. As the level of beer decreases the co2 will layer on top.

 

[WBCo]

Question... How do you keep from overfilling your keg in a closed transfer? I love the idea of this but am not sure how I'd know when to stop before getting it too full.

I bought all new diptubes when I rebuilt all of my kegs. All of them are the same length and unaltered. I leave my system completely attached and when beer starts to sputter out of the gas line I disconnect the beer side. That allows whatever beer is in the gas side diptube to completely drain. Because I never cut the diptubes, there is still a nice head space in the beer, and yes, you are correct, that headspace aids in carbonation.

I have seen people fill kegs by weight, but I've never tried that myself.

When I cold crash the conical the keg will hold the co2 inside with the keg disconnects removed......then once I’m ready to transfer I will attach the proper fittings. Do I then just hold the poppet up as I transfer or do something off of the gas out from the keg?

I leave everything attached just as shown in the picture throughout the whole fermentation and transfer process. When cold crashing the gas line that is submerged into the starsan will suck back some of the liquid, but never enough to enter into the keg. Once I start transferring, because I am using a few psi of positive pressure from the CO2 bottle, I don't need to mess with the poppet. The CO2 in the kegs is forced out by the entering beer and bubbles into the starsan just like it does when it's fermenting. Hope I made all that clear. Let me know if I didn't.

 

[crane]

Question... How do you keep from overfilling your keg in a closed transfer? I love the idea of this but am not sure how I'd know when to stop before getting it too full.

I usually use the condensation line technique. However, if I need to transfer before cold crashing then I pull out the bathroom scale and weigh the keg as I'm filling it.

 

[mongoose33]

Here's what that condensation line looks like on my kegs:

 

[Nagorg]

FWIW, I found the scale method for this and personally think it would be more reliable. Thats what I'll be doing when I do a closed transfer.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I used to use a scale the first few times but could always see the condensation line others have mentioned so it became redundant and I just watch the line now. Cheers

 

[shoengine]

I connect a QD fitting to the gas post and run a hose to a small bucket. Once I see the beer come out I shut it down. Makes things extremely consistent that way. I've done it that way with the PRV open and I've never had beer come out the PRV before coming out of the gas post, so it is almost completely full, but I'm not getting beer on the underside of the lid which keeps things cleaner.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I connect a QD fitting to the gas post and run a hose to a small bucket. Once I see the beer come out I shut it down. Makes things extremely consistent that way. I've done it that way with the PRV open and I've never had beer come out the PRV before coming out of the gas post, so it is almost completely full, but I'm not getting beer on the underside of the lid which keeps things cleaner.

Just keep in mind this only works if the beers is not carbonated. If your using a unitank you would want to use a spunding valve instead to avoid over foaming. Cheers

 

[Nagorg]

I used to use a scale the first few times but could always see the condensation line others have mentioned so it became redundant and I just watch the line now. Cheers

Assuming you can rely on a condensation line forming. That doesn't always happen for me, especially if I don't cold crash.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Assuming you can rely on a condensation line forming. That doesn't always happen for me, especially if I don't cold crash.

In that case your probably stuck with the scale or as another mentioned you can stop once you get beer out the gas in post. I personally couldn't brew without cold crashing. Having all the sediment in the serving keg would drive me nuts. Cheers

 

[Irish1225]

I’m going to revive and hijack this thread lol

I need to put together a closed transfer system and I’ve decide I’ll build it to get it to my specifications. I do let the beer carb slightly in the conical and would like to continue doing that. I can’t cold crash far enough that I would trust a condensation line.

Quick question first - I saw mongoose reference silicone tubing above. Any reason for silicone and not keg beverage tubing?

My plans here...
1) choose a TC fitting for the conical (keg disconnect, camlock, MFL). Still weighing how I would like to do it.
2) get a length of tubing. Is 5’ okay, or do you want at least 10’ if the beer is at 10psi for example?
3) another beverage keg disconnect into the keg
4) then I’ll build another length of tubing with gas disconnects at each end and a spunding valve that attaches at the other end. The length of tubing is so I can monitor fill volume and have enough length that I can cut off the fill before it gets to the spunding valve.

If I’m understanding this correctly, I won’t want to just put tubing into a bucket of sanitizer because that won’t keep pressure in the keg.

Am I barking up the right tree here?

 

[WBCo]

I’m going to revive and hijack this thread lol

I need to put together a closed transfer system and I’ve decide I’ll build it to get it to my specifications. I do let the beer carb slightly in the conical and would like to continue doing that. I can’t cold crash far enough that I would trust a condensation line.

Quick question first - I saw mongoose reference silicone tubing above. Any reason for silicone and not keg beverage tubing?

My plans here...
1) choose a TC fitting for the conical (keg disconnect, camlock, MFL). Still weighing how I would like to do it.
2) get a length of tubing. Is 5’ okay, or do you want at least 10’ if the beer is at 10psi for example?
3) another beverage keg disconnect into the keg
4) then I’ll build another length of tubing with gas disconnects at each end and a spunding valve that attaches at the other end. The length of tubing is so I can monitor fill volume and have enough length that I can cut off the fill before it gets to the spunding valve.

If I’m understanding this correctly, I won’t want to just put tubing into a bucket of sanitizer because that won’t keep pressure in the keg.

Am I barking up the right tree here?

When I built out my kit I actually went with the Bev Seal tubing because I liked it so much when I built my kegerator. That would be my suggestion, but you can go with any beverage safe tubing you desire.

2) You will want to fill the keg with counter pressure from your CO2 bottle if it's carbonated, so the length of the transfer hose isn't crucial.
3) Make sure you transfer into the liquid side of the keg!

I fill my kegs with still beer and carbonate in the kegerator, so I'm far from the authority on the subject, but you seem like you are on the right track to me.

 

[IslandLizard]

In addition to that ^, 100% liquid pre-purge your kegs before filling with beer. So they contain 100% CO2 while beer enters through the liquid post, as described above. Lid remains on till next cleaning.

As soon as you see trub entering the transfer line, pull the QD off the keg or close the racking valve. For that reason a 4-6' transfer line give you a fraction more time to pull it than a 2' line. Not sure you can use silicone hoses for transfer in that scenario, it's can only handle low pressure (<10-15psi).

The bigger trick is keeping the tracking arm below the beer line, but above the trub.

 

[Mer-man]

...
The bigger trick is keeping the tracking arm below the beer line, but above the trub.

1. Don't rack trub, or
2. Use a floating pickup (e.g. Caskwidge).

I do both and just disconnect the QD from the receiving keg once the line sputters.

 

[Nagorg]

I did my first closed transfer. Overall it went pretty slow but I think thats partly due to the TC fitting I got from Amazon; its got a tiny hole... Tinier than I think it should be.
I needed it in a hurry because of piss poor planning on my part. Brew Hardware was out of stock on the one with a 1/4 Male Flare fitting. Brewers Hardware has one but anyway, I got the one seen below. I think I'll order one of the MFL ones for the next time.

I also learned that either my corny kegs dont hold 5 gallons, my scale is off or my beer weighs less than 8.34 lbs per gallon. Both kegs started flowing out of the gas line before 41.7 lbs. One was around 40 lbs and the other was just before 39 lbs. Guess I'll stop at about 38-38.5 next time for ~4.5G...


TC fitting with tiny hole:

 

[Jako]

Question... How do you keep from overfilling your keg in a closed transfer? I love the idea of this but am not sure how I'd know when to stop before getting it too full.

lol you don't.... i have done this a few times. keep track of your volumes how much you rack off how much you have going into the fermenter etc. i try to have 5.5G to the fermenter and run off .3G for yeast and trub.

 

[Nagorg]

lol you don't.... i have done this a few times. keep track of your volumes how much you rack off how much you have going into the fermenter etc. i try to have 5.5G to the fermenter and run off .3G for yeast and trub.

Uh... Yeah, I keep track of my volumes. Thats not the question. Prior to a closed transfer I could see the level of beer as its filling up the keg. I could see the "5G line" and also where the short gas tube was so I could stop filling at the right time. Remember, I cant see the conical level dropping since SS isn't very transparent.

Anyway, I think I figured out why my kegs only hold ~4.5G. The two pin-locks I was using last night are my two shorter ones. It never occurred to me that they held less beer due to their shorter height but .... DUH! I like the shorter ones because I can set them on the hump in my keezer and still have room to close the lid without binding the hoses.

So, I'll keep that in mind on the next closed transfer. And I'll hopefully have a TC fitting with a more properly sized hole by then to speed things up a little.

 

[Beholder]

I did my first closed transfer. Overall it went pretty slow but I think thats partly due to the TC fitting I got from Amazon; its got a tiny hole... Tinier than I think it should be.
I needed it in a hurry because of piss poor planning on my part. Brew Hardware was out of stock on the one with a 1/4 Male Flare fitting. Brewers Hardware has one but anyway, I got the one seen below. I think I'll order one of the MFL ones for the next time.

I also learned that either my corny kegs dont hold 5 gallons, my scale is off or my beer weighs less than 8.34 lbs per gallon. Both kegs started flowing out of the gas line before 41.7 lbs. One was around 40 lbs and the other was just before 39 lbs. Guess I'll stop at about 38-38.5 next time for ~4.5G...


TC fitting with tiny hole:
View attachment 638239

Do you fill with counter pressure? Before putting a spunding valve on the gas peg, I would see foaming in the receiving keg.

Also, presume you tare your scale before filling, but filled hose weight, etc. can give some inaccuracy (unless tare with all in place) that could be on the order of a pound or two.

 

[Nagorg]

Do you fill with counter pressure? Before putting a spunding valve on the gas peg, I would see foaming in the receiving keg.

Also, presume you tare your scale before filling, but filled hose weight, etc. can give some inaccuracy (unless tare with all in place) that could be on the order of a pound or two.

No spunding valve. I'm not transferring carbonated beer in my case. Yes, I did tare my sale when hoses were attached and before starting transfer.