Clone recipe problem

[NorsemenRugby58]

A few weeks ago I bought a Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout because it had been a while since I had one. Tasted amazing, so I decided to try my hand in cloning it and making some for myself. I didn't expect to match the craftsmanship of Samuel Smith's.....however the brew I produced is severely lacking.

The main problem is that it tastes like someone poured a Sam Smith's into my glass, and then added a ton of water. The aroma is down right BAD...very home brew esque. The taste is watery stout followed by a very nice roasted after taste. I was surprised because the roasted after taste is real nice, but the rest of the beer down right sucks. I am puzzled because I hit all my numbers while brewing and it should have come out decent at least.

The recipe


Grain:

10lb Muntons Maris Otter Pale 2 Row (2.9 SRM)
1lb Quaker Oats (1 SRM)
.5lb Muntons Crystal 60 (64 SRM)
.5lb Muntons Chocolate Malt (432 SRM)
.5lb Weyermann Roasted Barley (462 SRM)

Hops:
2oz East Kent Golding (4.5% AA) 60min

Yeast:
Irish Ale Wyeast 1084 slap pack

Estimated OG 1.051
Measured OG 1.051

Estimated FG 1.013
Measured FG 1.014

*Note* I tweak my Beersmith to find my efficiency by playing around with the efficiency percentage until I reach the Original Gravity I measure.

Mash Schedule:
Mash 15.63 qts @ 161 for a 150 mash temp (60min)
Sparge 12qts @ 168 (20mins)

Fermentation:
This is where I think there could have been a problem

I fermented it in my basement. Its winter here in the Northeast and the past few weeks have been at negative temps or single digit temps. I think my basement could have been in the mid 50s


Any thoughts? Was it the ingredients I used? (Muntons) Could it be the ingredients were stored too long at my LHBS?

Thanks for the insight in advance.

 

[vtbrews1]

I think the temperature that the beer fermented at might be your problem. If you look at the wyeast site http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=6 the temperature it works best at is 62-72. I'm in the northeast too and I have to put my fermenter right next to the heater to keep it around 66-68.

 

[RM-MN]

How long has it been in the bottle? My Robust Porter was anything but rubust and I was pretty disappointed in it so I didn't drink much of it as I had other beer to drink. I did have to sample every so often just because it was there and one day, probably 2 months after I bottled it, it matured and became robust. I think your stout may be the same way. Being a dark beer it simply needs time for all the flavors to come together. I think when it does you will be amazed.

Since you have a long wait ahead of you, start brewing something a little lighter that will be ready to drink sooner so you don't drink all your stout before it ever matures.

 

[cimirie]

The big roast character came from an abundance of roast barley. 1/2 lb is a tall order in a standard batch when it is pretty much the only "character grain" in the grainbill. Not too much, mind you, just more than most.

As far as the watery aspect... I would probably add some more specialized grain. More crystal (at least total to 1 lb). More oatmeal as well (at least total to a pound). Make sure you use flaked oats (which I think are Quaker instant, but I can't be sure. If you can't find the answer, just buy at lhbs). Another option is to use flaked barley to increase body and mouthfeel. I'd say around 1/2 lb.

I would also agree that you fermented a bit on the cold side. Although I don't have the slightest clue as to why that would have the effect it did - assuming it fermented fully. Based in your numbers, I'd say it did.

All in all, I agree with RM-MN. If you let it sit and forget it, you'll probably be surprised when you come back to it.

 

[NorsemenRugby58]

Thanks, all good replies. In terms of the oats, there already were 1lb. In terms of the quaker oats problem....if anyone cares to be educated... the only difference between standard quaker oats and the 1min oats are the 1min are cut finer so they cook quicker....same thing essentially.

Ok so more crystal.... I compared my recipe to another and they used 1/2lb crystal 60 AND 1/2lb of crystal 120 but not chocolate. Think I should try that?

Also, forgot to mention....I tried this right out of primary...with no carbonation. I racked it to a keg and it is force carbing as we speak.

 

[Oldsock]

Ok so more crystal.... I compared my recipe to another and they used 1/2lb crystal 60 AND 1/2lb of crystal 120 but not chocolate. Think I should try that?

Also, forgot to mention....I tried this right out of primary...with no carbonation. I racked it to a keg and it is force carbing as we speak.

I think you are just judging the beer too young. Carbonation will give it some additional body, and time will help clean it up.

It is possible though that the yeast fermented fine even at those low temps, but were just too cold to clean up some intermediates and byproducts (when fermentation slows down the temperature of the wort starts to fall). I would warm the beer up for a week if you can to give them a chance to finish.

I think the recipe looks fine, seems like plenty of oats and crystal to me. I just brewed a stout with 95% Marris Otter and 5% Roasted Barley, that’s it.

 

[cimirie]

Thanks, all good replies. In terms of the oats, there already were 1lb. In terms of the quaker oats problem....if anyone cares to be educated... the only difference between standard quaker oats and the 1min oats are the 1min are cut finer so they cook quicker....same thing essentially.

Ok so more crystal.... I compared my recipe to another and they used 1/2lb crystal 60 AND 1/2lb of crystal 120 but not chocolate. Think I should try that?

Also, forgot to mention....I tried this right out of primary...with no carbonation. I racked it to a keg and it is force carbing as we speak.

Sorry. Misread the oat quantity. Although if you're trying to increase body, it probably wont hurt. In relation to the oats... I've found while searching this site, that Quaker instant oats are pregelatinized and that standard Quaker oats are not. It's more than just the cut. If you use standard oats, you'll need a cereal mash to gelatinize and use the starch.

I'm not an expert nor am I claiming to truly know the answer. But the consensus on this site is that there is a big difference. There are enough people that hold the stance that you do, though, that I choose to bypass the argument and spend the $1.50/lb for flaked oats at my LHBS so there's no question.

Carbonation will add body, no question. I would think, though, that at no time in it's life cycle should an oatmeal stout be described as "watery." but thats's why I love this hobby. If at first you don't succeed, drink yourself silly with your "mistake" and try again. Good luck.

 

[Golddiggie]

I think part of the issue is from the low mash temp, short mash time, and the short sparge time... For a full bodied brew, or even a medium bodied brew, you would want to have a mash temp of at least 154F (full bodied at ~158F)... I would have also gone for a 90 minute mash, and 30 minute (maybe longer) sparge time.

Having it ferment in the mid 50's is another issue for 1084... It's listed temperature range is 62-72F... So unless you had a heating element on it, to get it at least to the low 60's, I suspect the yeast are napping.

I've had good results with 1084 in my kitchen (usually in the 62-66F range during the day, occasionally going a little higher). I've slapped the sticky thermometers onto my primaries, so that I can see what temp they are at, relative to the air temp...

If the brew is still in the primary, get it someplace in the mid 60's, and see what it does. Or place it on a heating pad (or secure one to it) and place it on low to get the wort into the thermal range of the yeast.

 

[NorsemenRugby58]

Sorry. Misread the oat quantity. Although if you're trying to increase body, it probably wont hurt. In relation to the oats... I've found while searching this site, that Quaker instant oats are pregelatinized and that standard Quaker oats are not. It's more than just the cut. If you use standard oats, you'll need a cereal mash to gelatinize and use the starch.

I'm not an expert nor am I claiming to truly know the answer. But the consensus on this site is that there is a big difference. There are enough people that hold the stance that you do, though, that I choose to bypass the argument and spend the $1.50/lb for flaked oats at my LHBS so there's no question.

Carbonation will add body, no question. I would think, though, that at no time in it's life cycle should an oatmeal stout be described as "watery." but thats's why I love this hobby. If at first you don't succeed, drink yourself silly with your "mistake" and try again. Good luck.

I've also heard the gelatanized argument as well.....who knows? I think I am going to go the route you take however and start getting my flaked at my LHBS. People can complain about pricing all they want, but in the end if you make a decent 5.5-6gal batch of beer, you are still saving huge over going out and buying 24pks or 12pks or 6pks

 

[NorsemenRugby58]

I think part of the issue is from the low mash temp, short mash time, and the short sparge time... For a full bodied brew, or even a medium bodied brew, you would want to have a mash temp of at least 154F (full bodied at ~158F)... I would have also gone for a 90 minute mash, and 30 minute (maybe longer) sparge time.

Having it ferment in the mid 50's is another issue for 1084... It's listed temperature range is 62-72F... So unless you had a heating element on it, to get it at least to the low 60's, I suspect the yeast are napping.

I've had good results with 1084 in my kitchen (usually in the 62-66F range during the day, occasionally going a little higher). I've slapped the sticky thermometers onto my primaries, so that I can see what temp they are at, relative to the air temp...

If the brew is still in the primary, get it someplace in the mid 60's, and see what it does. Or place it on a heating pad (or secure one to it) and place it on low to get the wort into the thermal range of the yeast.

Technically its in secondary now but I've moved it upstairs to my dining room where the temp is within range...I didnt even think about the fermentation temp...its just standard for me to put my brews down the basement. In the summer months the fluctuation upstairs with air conditioning is too much for the brew...so its standard for me to leave it downstairs....looks like I got caught napping as well. Its sitting in the keg though in the dining room and I am going to let it sit for another week then toss it in the keezer force carb it and try some.

Thanks for all the help everyone.:rockin:

 

[Golddiggie]

The 'summer' temps in MA is why I'll be making a fermentation chamber before spring time is over. Basically, when my place is above ~75 for most of the day, I'll have the chamber ready for my precious home brew...

I'm hoping that the next place I live has access to a basement that's not filled with other crap. My a$$hole/pack-rat landlord has so much stuff in there, most of the year, that you can't even go from one side to the other. At least, not without knocking things down. I also want to have a first floor apartment next (will be looking for a house in about 2 years I think). That will make it easier to boil outside almost year round.

 

[cimirie]

In addition to misreading the oat quantity, I also misread the mash temp (read much!). If you struck at 160 for a mash temp of only 151, I'd say that is your primary reason for a light-bodied beer. I thought you mashed at 160 and for the life of me I couldn't figure out what was wrong.

Mashing that low will play a large role in a thin body. Nice catch golddiggie!

 

[Golddiggie]

In addition to misreading the oat quantity, I also misread the mash temp (read much!). If you struck at 160 for a mash temp of only 151, I'd say that is your primary reason for a light-bodied beer. I thought you mashed at 160 and for the life of me I couldn't figure out what was wrong.

Mashing that low will play a large role in a thin body. Nice catch golddiggie!

Thanks... I had to read it a couple of times to make sure I was actually reading it right... I'm brewing more full bodied brews (some might be semi-medium bodied too) so I know I need to keep the mash temp in the 154-158F range... Depending on your setup, that could be either real easy, or a pain, or someplace between (an easy pain?)...

 

[NorsemenRugby58]

These have been great replies so far, but my other question was flavor. The beer severely lacks flavor as well as body... could this be due to the cold fermentation? Or could it be because of cruddy ingredients?

Golddiggie, I am from NH, whereabouts in MA are you?

 

[Golddiggie]

These have been great replies so far, but my other question was flavor. The beer severely lacks flavor as well as body... could this be due to the cold fermentation? Or could it be because of cruddy ingredients?

Mashing too low, I believe, will also mean less flavors extracted from the malted grains... Of course, the Quakers could be going all 18th century on your brew's flavor too.

Golddiggie, I am from NH, whereabouts in MA are you?

Pssst... It's in my info to the left (aka "Location")...

 

[NorsemenRugby58]

gotcha...missed that