Marzen Recipe Review

[Mr Drinklestien]

I've looked into a bunch of posts of this nature in regards to Marzen recipes here and online, so many different recipes and opinions.... I've made a few in the past but they just didn't do it for me. One lesson learned, was the issue with under pitching on the 34/70, basically I had gal wort and 3 packs of direct pitch 34/70 from the pack, plus no D-rest.. I have the ability to control fermentation temps via ambient temp in my brewhouse in the winter months between 50F-54F then raise up to an ambient temp to 68 degrees (ambient) in the matter of 15 minutes (area is climatized via heat pump). I want to knock this beer out of the park and was hoping for some feedback, I want a good crisp flavour with a nice malt back, but don't want a cloying or sweet beer in the end.

Batch Size: 17 Gal (covers losses, trub dump, yeast collection, 15 gallons for 3 korneys)
OG 1.054
FG 1.012
IBU 23
SRM 9.9
5.5% ABV
Efficiency 80% (hitting 78-80% with consistency)
Yeast: 34/70 @ 5 packs rehydrated

Fermentables (34.25 lbs)
- Pilsner Malt 34.3%
- Vienna Malt 32.1%
- Munich Malt 23.4%
- Caramunich II 6.1%
- Carapils 2.2%
- Rice Hulls 1% (I use a small amount of hulls in everything I brew, I find that it really helps with with my setup)

- Carafa I 0.9% ***Note: This is being added at last 10 minutes of mash, only looking to impart colour***

Limited to what my LHB sells, so I'm working with what I have
Supplies | Mysite

Mash at 151F for 75 minutes
Mash out at 167 for 10 minutes
Sparge with 167 water then proceed to boil

Bittering Magnum@60 min (18.74 IBU)
Hallertau@17 Min (4.21 IBU)

Boil for 75 minutes
2 Whirlfloc tabs added at 10 min

Cool to 50F and transfer to conical (spike conical)
Pitch 5 packs of rehydrated 34/70 yeast
Ferment 52-55F for 5 days
Ramp up temp to 65F for a D rest and keep at temp for 7 days
Trub dump / collect yeast
transfer to Keg (3 korneys @ 5 Gal) pressurize to 10 PSI
Lager in Keezer at 40F for 6 weeks prior to serving

 

[Bobby_M]

Nothing wrong with that recipe or plan except the calculators are suggesting 8 packs of rehydrated dry yeast. The calculator screen grab below says 9, but that's with a 58B cell overpitch so backing off to 8 makes sense. I know that's an expensive pitch, but hey 17 gallons is a lot of beer and a lot of time invested.

 

[Mr Drinklestien]

Good info and much appreciated! Agree with you 100%, 3 extra packs pale in comparison to the time invested. I want to make sure this is my best batch yet. I've been brewing for 5 years now and still so much to learn, but that's the beauty of this hobby
Cheers

 

[AlexKay]

I think it’s a little too much Caramunich. I would stick to 0-3% or so.

I’m unconvinced that Carapils does anything positive.

I sometimes use a tiny bit (1/2%) of chocolate rye in doppelbock marzen and rauchbier, when I want to add some color.

(Edit: looking back at my recipes, I usually use 2-3% DRC in rauchbier (and I like how it turns out!))

 

[dmtaylor]

I would use 4 packs of yeast. 8 packs would be a major overpitch.

The Carapils is doing absolutely NOTHING for you.

Looks like a good recipe and a good plan other than that. It's going to turn out great whether you listen to me or not. Cheers and enjoy.

 

[Bobby_M]

I would use 4 packs of yeast. 8 packs would be a major overpitch.

Where does the calculator get it wrong? Did I enter something by mistake or are you just generally incredulous of recommended pitch rates?

 

[Bobby_M]

One data point you may or may not want to use.

 

[dmtaylor]

Where does the calculator get it wrong? Did I enter something by mistake or are you just generally incredulous of recommended pitch rates?

I have my own yeast pitch calculator based on much research, pondering, and personal experience. Fall down a rabbit hole:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=27438.0

Spoiler: All yeast pitch calculators, for DRY yeast, assume around 5B cells/gram, and sometimes less, when in fact in most cases there's closer to 20B cells/gram. And, dry yeast lasts basically forever in cold storage so viability NEEDS to be left OUT of the calculations.

 

[Mr Drinklestien]

A lot to digest info wise, but definitely good points all around. Pitch wise, Ale yeasts I usually just run with 3 packs for a 17 gallon batch on anything 1.053 and under. Anything over an OG of 1.053 I tend to add an additional pack, decent results so far with the odd meh...batch. In regards to 34/70, the first Pilsner H had ever brewed back at start (5 gal), I used one pack, direct pitch. Was fermented at 59F in my cellar (bucket) for 3 weeks, then bottled/conditioned at 70F for 2 weeks then one week in the fridge before drinking. It was actually was one of my favorite beers I had brewed to date. Once I had moved to a bigger rig and started pumping out 16-17 gallon batches, with the ability to ferment at the 50F-54F mark something had changed. Same recipe scaled up to suit - direct pitching 3 packs into the wort, and a 4-8 week lager (in keg) at 39-41F (last keg tapped at 8 weeks). Taste wasn't as bready, wasn't as clean, a tad on the sweeter end with a 1.014-1.015 finish. This is where I wanted to question the pitch rate on the lager yeasts, I'm hoping that this and the improved D-Rest schedule will help alleviate some if not all of my issues.

I'll run the 34/70 on this batch with the balance of the suggestions and give it a go with 6 packs rehydrated (17 gal wort). I'll completely remove the carapils and mod the Caramunich II to a total of 4.4% to aim to reduce the possibly too much residual sweetness.

I tend to always add carapils to promote head retention, but to be honest I'm ignorant to the fact if it's actually doing anything positive or negative, there's so many conflicting posts online so I get gun shy and just tend to run with what I’ve been doing. My goal this year is to start fine tuning my processes and become more consistent with the end results, plus get a more accurate view as to what characteristics each recipe ingredient will add to the final product.

Again I appreciate the help and info. I'll report back once first keg is ready to tap

Cheers

 

[Bobby_M]

I have my own yeast pitch calculator based on much research, pondering, and personal experience. Fall down a rabbit hole:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=27438.0

Spoiler: All yeast pitch calculators, for DRY yeast, assume around 5B cells/gram, and sometimes less, when in fact in most cases there's closer to 20B cells/gram. And, dry yeast lasts basically forever in cold storage so viability NEEDS to be left OUT of the calculations.

I guess everyone's experience is different. I've had some issues with acetaldehyde with smaller pitches but then I'm not lagering my beers for months either. Note the Brewfather calculator I posted uses 13B/gram.

 

[dmtaylor]

I guess everyone's experience is different. I've had some issues with acetaldehyde with smaller pitches but then I'm not lagering my beers for months either. Note the Brewfather calculator I posted uses 13B/gram.

View attachment 841182

That's actually more reasonable than some older yeast pitch calculators I've seen.

 

[Bobby_M]

That's actually more reasonable than some older yeast pitch calculators I've seen.

Without any admission of cell count, Fermentis data sheet recommends .8 to 1.2 grams per liter of wort in the recommended temp range or 1.6 to 2.4 grams/liter for 48F or less. I'm assuming the range is accommodation of wort gravity without any specifics, but down the middle still suggests 6 packs if fermenting at 54F or so. I've had better success with 3-packs in 6 gallons than I have with only 2 and that's been pretty consistent unless there are other factors I'm not considering.

While overpitching can cause stylistic issues, I don't think 8 packs in 17 gallons is even close to problematic overpitching. It's not like we're talking about the ester suppression you'd get from overpitching a bitter. I occasionally see discussions about acetaldehyde problems when conceptually overpitching (full repitches of slurry for example), but I have a theory that people are getting the beer off the yeast too quickly triggered by a rapidly reaching FG and moving the process along out of habit.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

The carapils for body and head retention is covered in your caramunich. Are you using Munich I or II? II might give you more of the color your looking without the carafa I. I also believe munich II is a bit maltier on the finish too.

 

[AlexKay]

I tend to always add carapils to promote head retention, but to be honest I'm ignorant to the fact if it's actually doing anything positive or negative, there's so many conflicting posts online so I get gun shy and just tend to run with what I’ve been doing. My goal this year is to start fine tuning my processes and become more consistent with the end results, plus get a more accurate view as to what characteristics each recipe ingredient will add to the final product.

I know of one paper that says that Carapils in specific (and crystal in general) is foam-negative.

Generally a 5% ABV all-malt beer is not going to have foam issues. But if you want to goose it up, 5-10% wheat is a better bet.

 

[Red over White]

Personally, I would drop the Caramunich II to 1-2% Caramunich I and replace the carapils entirely with Carafoam at 4% (build the balance into the Pilsner malt) and rest for 15-20 mins at 163°F. You might hate me though, because you have such a thick wonderful head on every pour that your glass will have stubborn Irish lace stuck to the glass that builds up on successive pours.

With the right yeast and ferment schedule you will have a winner. Wlp833 and that malt bill is an incredible experience in the glass.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

I know of one paper that says that Carapils in specific (and crystal in general) is foam-negative.

I'd be interested in seeing this. I always understood european carafoam was not a crystal malt as American maltster would have you believe.

 

[Mr Drinklestien]

The carapils for body and head retention is covered in your caramunich. Are you using Munich I or II? II might give you more of the color your looking without the carafa I. I also believe munich II is a bit maltier on the finish too.

Using Caramuch II, I dropped the total to 4.4% of the grist. In regards to the Carafa, it will be added with 10 min left in the mash plus the 10 min mash out at 167 (total of 0.9% of grist). I'm thinking it shouldn't add any noticeable flavor being that amount/late addition.
Cheers

 

[AlexKay]

I'd be interested in seeing this. I always understood european carafoam was not a crystal malt as American maltster would have you believe.

Here's the link -- unfortunately behind the journal's paywall. They looked at Carapils (Briess), not Carafoam (Weyermann).

From the conclusion:

By contrast, all of the other materials studied, especially the crystal, clearly contain foam-inhibiting material of low molecular weight. Notwithstanding this, there is also an indication of some foam-positive factor in the low-molecular-weight fractions from barley, pale malt and black malt. We surmise that one likely positive factor is the lower pH.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Using Caramuch II, I dropped the total to 4.4% of the grist. In regards to the Carafa, it will be added with 10 min left in the mash plus the 10 min mash out at 167 (total of 0.9% of grist). I'm thinking it shouldn't add any noticeable flavor being that amount/late addition.
Cheers

Sorry I was asking about the base malt "Munich" in the recipe, not the caramunich, Munich I or Munich II. I'm with Red over White, drop the caramunich and go with carafoam in a smaller %.

 

[Joggin]

Personally, instead of buying that many yeast packs, I'd just brew a 5 gal lager and use the yeast from that. I only do 5 gal batches but don't see how that wouldn't work out.

 

[Mr Drinklestien]

Sorry I was asking about the base malt "Munich" in the recipe, not the caramunich, Munich I or Munich II. I'm with Red over White, drop the caramunich and go with carafoam in a smaller %.

Using Munich 10L as the base malt. Brewing as i'm typing this, sparging at the moment. Ran with my last recipe update as stated above, have 6 packs of yeast (line in the sand already lol) rehydrated. I'll add some pics of the session today.

FYI, using a Grainfather G70

Cheers

 

[Mr Drinklestien]

So here’s the brew day,

Ended up pouring my mash/sparge water in 16 hours ahead to try to remove as much chlorine as possible, never had done this so what the hell, why not

Grain Bill 33.9 lbs (after mods)

Mash Vol: 13.5 Gal (1 table spoon gypsum added)

Sparge Vol: 9.2 Gal

Pre Boil Vol : 18.15 Gal

Fermenter Fill: 16 Gal on the mark

Pre boil Gravity: 1.052 (+/- .001) used a refractometer and my eyes going into midlife crises mode

75 Min boil (split the difference between the 60 & 90 – lots of conflicting info on this as well)

Original Gravity: 1.056 using Hydrometer

I’m in southern Ontario, weather is great in the high 50’s in February, killer day to brew. You can go bigger batches with the G70, you just need to make some mods to the setup and increase the mash time on larger grain bills, I can manage to get a 1.055 beer and fill 3 x 5 gallon corneys but it’s a lot of hands on. There is a bit of give and take here with the larger batches, you need to make sure you stir the mash every 10 minutes, same goes for a light stir on the sparge aiming not to disturb the lower portion against the basket. Bigger beers I have do two separate mashes, generally the 1.055 mark is the max I go with one mash (17 gal batch)

Cheers

 

[Mr Drinklestien]

Update
- Pitched yeast around 3:30 p.m. Saturday @ 50F
- Sunday a.m. airlock had some nice movement, temp @ 54F
- Able to keep window cracked in order to maintain fermentation temp of 52-54F from Sunday through to Wednesday
- Took a reading Wednesday and...Holy ****, it was at 1.012 in 4 days! Airlock still has activity, about 1 bubble every 10 seconds or so.
- Raise ambient temp to 65F yesterday for a D rest and will leave it there for the next 10 days prior to kegging and lagering

Airlock activity between Sunday and Wednesday a.m. was insanely active, I've never seen a lager yeast move an airlock like that.

I'll report back with a FG reading later next week

Cheers

 

[Mr Drinklestien]

Kegged and carbing in Keezer at 39F, going for a 6 week lager.
Final gravity ended up at 1.008, abv is a bit higher than I wanted at 6.3%, but if it tastes good than who cares. I always run a quick taste after I calculate my FG, tasted decent, pumped to see how it polishes up.