Cider Kit taking too long, someone with some know how please have a look.

[TheMotherConfessor]

Hi there all.

Purchased everything (I think) that we could need for a home brew hobby for my better half for Christmas and we have just got our first brew on. We are doing the Young's Peach & Passion fruit kit first.

We are using wide neck fermenters instead of buckets. I will go through our process step by step in the hope that someone can tell us what has gone wrong, if anything.

1. We submerged everything in Starsan for 1-2 minutes and resisted the urge to rinse

2. Added the required amount of hot water, then the fruit concentrate, sugar and yeast ect. Followed the recipe instructions to the dot.

3. Topped up with bottled water (Tap water is very hard and nasty here).

4. Used Vaseline on the cap thread and seal and put on the lid. Added a sterilised bung, and a Sterilock with an odour absorbing capsule. (Thought we would try out the Sterilock rather than the bubbler, it's a little un-nerving as a beginner as we don't have the bubble bubble to tell us it's working. No smell at all from the brew so the odour absorbing capsule is obviously working well.)

5. Left the fermenter in the spare room, with a crystal thermometer stuck to the vessel and a room thermometer in there. Temp stayed around 18 on the vessel, and around 19 in the room.

6. On day 4 we added a thermostat controlled fan heater to the room as the temp of the fermenter had dropped to 16/17. Finding it quite hard to read the crystal thermometer. Never sure which one is the right reading. Blue or orange? I normally go for the blue as it is the most prominent.

7. On day 5, the temp was 24 on the vessel, and in the room. The fermenter had blown out at the base and was now very unstable and you could wobble it around with your finger due to the pressure build up, presumably from the temp increase making the yeast go overboard. Removed the Sterilock just enough to let the pressure out. The vessel regained its shape. Put the sterilock back in properly and removed the odour capsule thinking that was stopping it working.

8. Checked the SG, 1.040 - stays in the orange area on the hydrometer, which according to the instructions is a starter area for beer? The instructions say that when it is in the green (1.000-1.005) then it is ready for bottling/second stage fermenting.

9. On day 6, the vessel had bowed out again at the bottom so this time we removed the Sterilock completely and put in an old fashioned bubbler. It is now bubbling away.

10. Day 7, temperature is stable and airlock still bubbling. Checked the hydrometer in some tap water at 20°C after spinning the bubbles off and it reads 1.002 so it's not far out, but haven't tried distilled water so could just be the poor water quality here.

11. Day 8, checked the SG and it's reading 1.030. Has come down a bit. Still bubbling.

Why has the gravity not gone to the desired level according to the kits instructions? The kit says it should end at 1.006, so it's a long way off.

I realise that the low temp could have caused problems, especially given that when it heated up it seems to have built up pressure faster than the Sterilock could handle. When I put the bubbler on it blew most of the water out, although I could have put too much water in for all I know.

The liquid is cloudy, smells much nicer than it did when it first went in, so I'm guessing things are happening, even if very slowly. There doesn't seem to be any foam, or only a very small layer. Don't want to open the lid unnecessarily to check. (No idea if this is normal for Cider) and I can't see any sediment on the bottom either. I am a little concerned.

Is it just the temperature that's messed the timings up? Using grolsch bottles so I don't want to bottle until it's ready to save bottle bombs.

Sorry for the very long post, I thought it would be best to give you all of the information to begin with.

We are a little confused here!

Thanks for reading. Any help is appreciated.
Sarah.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Sounds like it's working, maybe it's just taking a bit longer than the instructions say. Did you add yeast nutrient? If not, this could be a factor in the speed of the fermentation.
Regards, GF.

 

[GaBrewZoo]

Day 8, checked the SG and it's reading 1.030. Has come down a bit. Still bubbling.

Why has the gravity not gone to the desired level according to the kits instructions?

Every cider I have made takes at least 2 to 3 weeks for primary fermentation.

The liquid is cloudy, smells much nicer than it did when it first went in, so I'm guessing things are happening, even if very slowly. There doesn't seem to be any foam, or only a very small layer.

Exactly as it should be. When primary is finished, bubbler will slow down considerably, sediment will start collecting in bottom and cider will start to clear. Be patient and let it sit for at least four to six weeks and you'll be very happy with results.

Added a sterilised bung, and a Sterilock

I don't know what a Sterilock is, but it sounds like you should not be using it, unless you want to clean up a big mess when your container explodes. Use the bubbler, or if it is a very vigorous fermentation, a blow off tube, which is a hose in the hole of the bung to a jug of sanitizer. The container needs to release pressure without contaminants being able to get in.

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

Hi and thank you both for your replies.

Definitely still working. SG is at 1.018 today.

Yeast nutrient was included with the kit.

Google a sterilock, they are supposed to be a waterless alternative to a bubble airlock, but what it didn't say in the instructions that it says on the website is not to use with a violent fermentation. When I added heat to the room things obviously got a bit too violent for the thing. Like I said, I prefer the bubbler as I know it's working.

Only reason I am so concerned is that the kit says 6 days till bottling, so I have been panicking and checking the SG all the time which has probably wasted a bottle of cider by now.

So should I ignore the kit and wait till the bubbler stops and it starts clearing, or is it bad to let the bubbler stop? I understand you need the yeast left alive so it can carbonate in the bottles.

How do I know when to check the SG without doing so every day and wasting so much cider?

Thanks again to both of you,
Sarah.

 

[BGBC]

Ignore your kit instructions when it comes to fermentation time. Every ferment will be a little different.

You can use the airlock as one indicator, but just because it stops bubbling doesn't mean it's ready to bottle.

I know patience is hard on the first few batches, but a couple extra weeks in the fermenter will not hurt your batch.

 

[Renegades_Brew]

Fermentation times on the instructions are rarely ever correct. While at optimal conditions this might be true for bottling in 6 days. Generally longer is not a bad thing. Most of my ciders sit for several months before I bottle.

Everything you did was correct. I don't know about that Sterilock thing... I looked it up, I'd much prefer the standard bubbler.

 

[Maylar]

You'll be fine. And it sounds like that strilock thingie is clogged. Go by your hydrometer readings, not by time. I've had ciders finish primary anywhere from 6 days to 3 weeks.

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

So is there any way other than the SG reading that will indicate how long is left? Keep wasting so much cider checking it all the time.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[BGBC]

So is there any way other than the SG reading that will indicate how long is left? Keep wasting so much cider checking it all the time.

Thanks again for all your help.

Are you trying to meet a deadline? To stop wasting so much cider, just stop checking it so often.

 

[Maylar]

So is there any way other than the SG reading that will indicate how long is left? Keep wasting so much cider checking it all the time.

Thanks again for all your help.

No need to waste cider. Sanitize your hydrometer, test tube and sample taker with Star San and pour the cider back in after measuring. I do this all the time.

 

[physics911]

Sarah,
Welcome to brewing.
The very first piece of advice which should be given to all new people is, practice patience. There are times when you can accelerate things, though not as many times where you should actually do it.

Secondly, kits are a great place to start; nearly everyone starts this way. However, keep in mind the rationale behind a kit, and more specifically, its instructions. They are made so most anyone can brew a pleasing beverage, and as such use the broadest measures possible, i.e., if the instructions were 60 pages long, full of information about free amino nitrogens, water reports, and chaptilization, fewer people would likely buy the kits. So, you are doing the right thing by asking advice on forums such as this.

From what you describe, it sounds mostly as if the fermentation was going on fine, but maybe a bit slower because of the excess head pressure (CO2 not being able to get out). On this latter point, some of the more senior members will have to advise if head pressure can impede fermentation.

You are too far along to do this now, but my suggestion for your next fermentation is to give the juice a good shake to get lots of O2 in it, then skip all lids, air locks, and steri-whatever's for the first few days of fermentation, and just cover it with a clean t-shirt. Once the aggressive fermentation has subsided you can add a lid and an airlock.

I will end as I began; go slow and enjoy the process. The more times you open the lid, the more air you let in and the more chances of something going poorly.

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

Thank you to you all. You have given me some really sound advice and have really helped.

I'm not trying to do it to a deadline I was just trying to follow the instructions but as a few of you have said, not everything is as simple as the instructions make out and obviously things are impacting on the speed of the fermentation.

I will also start putting the samples back into the container and stop wasting so much, and giving it at least two weeks before I even check it, if you think that is advisable.

I'm going to get the next one on in the next few days and I will make an effort to shake up the juice and water as much as possible and also keep the room at a stable temp. Should I aim for the lower or higher end of the scale? Much more worried about taste than timescale.

Are there any visual indicators that I should be checking the SG? Or is it just a waiting game. Like you have said I don't like to keep opening the lid so much.

Thanks again to to you all, it's really nice to know there is somewhere I can come to ask the questions that the books or forum guides don't answer.

Sarah.

 

[BGBC]

Maybe I missed it above, but what yeast are you using? Different yeasts will have different preferred temp ranges, and will act differently at different temps, even within the range.

If it's in a bucket, there aren't many other visual cues. The bubbling in the airlock can be a clue to when fermentation is slowing, but not a rule (some buckets don't have perfect seals around the lids). Even then, letting it sit another couple weeks after visible signs of fermentation have stopped is a good thing. There are other byproducts that the yeast will be cleaning up, etc. It can also do this in the bottle, but bulk aging will yield a more consistent product, IMO.

It's ready to bottle when you have a consistent FG reading over a period of time (a couple days to a week in between readings). For cider, it should ferment out completely since it's all simple sugars, so I'd expect an FG of 1.000 or lower (what was your OG?).

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi Sarah, Opening the lid and stirring during the active period of fermentation (until gravity drops to about 1.005) is the best thing you can do for the cider. In fact many cider makers will ferment their cider in a food grade bucket loosely covered with a cloth. This to help them get at the liquid to stir in air, to stir out CO2 and to take gravity readings - the last activity every couple of days and the first two , several times a day.
As others have suggested, cider ain't beer and there is absolutely no harm in taking a sample to read the gravity and then returning that sample to your fermenter. What you MUST do is be confident that you have sanitized the hydrometer, the capsule you use to hold the sample and the baster or wine thief you are using to collect the sample. I use K-meta, but if Star-san is a sanitizer then that is OK too.
I don't use kits but as others have suggested , the instructions are part of the manufacturer's marketing. If those buying kits think that everything can be done to a clock or a calendar and if they think that they can empty their fermenter in a week then that empty fermenter will be calling out to be refilled in enough homes for the manufacturer of the kit to be smiling all the way to the bank. A fermenter that is presented as needing to remain full for a couple or three weeks or more will discourage many folk looking for instant gratification and won't start to poke the owner asking to be refilled soon enough to keep the manufacturer happy.

But in truth, yeast is a living organism and its activity will depend on so many, many things - most of which you may have very little control over, or not understand how to control or what needs controlling... and so for example, when you sorta kinda seal your fermenter you trap carbon dioxide (and that inhibits the yeast) and you trap the heat (and that excites the yeast) and you prevent the yeast getting at oxygen (which inhibits budding (or reproduction) and repair of their cells)

 

[Maylar]

Temperature control isn't really critical with cider, but somewhere around 65°F (18°C) is ideal. Any idea of which type of yeast was in the kit? Different yeasts have different requirements for that.

Airlock activity is a fair indicator of fermentation progress. You will see the rate of bubbles slow as the process completes. When bubbles stop or are a minute apart it's time to check gravity again. If you're a week into this, I'd wait another week before the next test.

And BTW, you're not a brewer... you're a cider maker. Welcome to the vortex.

 

[MarkKF]

No need to waste cider. Sanitize your hydrometer, test tube and sample taker with Star San and pour the cider back in after measuring. I do this all the time.

But it's soooo hard to not drink a few oz.

 

[Newsman]

No need to waste cider. Sanitize your hydrometer, test tube and sample taker with Star San and pour the cider back in after measuring. I do this all the time.

Alternatively, just do like I do and leave your hydrometer in your cider.

 

[madscientist451]

For me, slow fermentation at a low temperature (15-16C) makes a better tasting cider than one that ferments quickly at a higher temperature. Some of my ciders take 3 months or more to finish, but some of them are running at 10-13C.
It takes a while to get to know the yeast you are working with and what kind of flavors are produced at different temperatures. Forget about bottling in 6 days.
When the cider stops bubbling, wait a few days to see if it really stopped then pull a sample, take a gravity reading and taste it. If the taste isn't something you like or it seems harsh, some aging might be in order. If it tastes OK you can go ahead and bottle.

 

[CMcPherson]

Hi Sarah, Opening the lid and stirring during the active period of fermentation (until gravity drops to about 1.005) is the best thing you can do for the cider. In fact many cider makers will ferment their cider in a food grade bucket loosely covered with a cloth. This to help them get at the liquid to stir in air, to stir out CO2 and to take gravity readings - the last activity every couple of days and the first two , several times a day.

I just pitched my 3rd and 4th batches using this method. I am using food grade buckets with Gamma Lids. I only loosely screw on the lids.
Are you really suggesting doing it this way till .005? I figured a couple of days max then into a carboy with airlock.

 

[CMcPherson]

...stirring during the active period of fermentation (until gravity drops to about 1.005) is the best thing you can do for the cider.

In looking back at my above question, it looks like that it could have been taken more as a dishonest challenge than an honest question. My internet skills decline sharply after 2 AM.
I don't know enough about this yet to challenge anybodies advice.
So please clarify, is open container fermentation (that allows for stirring the Must) recommended for just a few days or all the way to near completion of primary?

 

[dmtaylor]

Good cider takes at least a month, if not 2-3 months, to complete fermentation. Don't rush it. Leave it alone! And then, when you just can't wait to play with it, leave it alone again! And then, when you're sure it must be all done fermenting, leave it alone even longer! Give it at least a month before messing around with it at all.

 

[MarkKF]

When fermentation slows, after 7, 10, 14 days and the S. G. is under 1.010 I rack into glass and let it finish, 6-9 months.

 

[Maylar]

In looking back at my above question, it looks like that it could have been taken more as a dishonest challenge than an honest question. My internet skills decline sharply after 2 AM.
I don't know enough about this yet to challenge anybodies advice.
So please clarify, is open container fermentation (that allows for stirring the Must) recommended for just a few days or all the way to near completion of primary?

You'll get the full gamut of replies on that. I've done both, and honestly never noticed any difference. If I'm doing a small batch (1 or 3 gallons) I'll put a bung and airlock in place from day 1 after pitching. No oxygen other than giving a good shake the first day, no stirring. Never had a stalled ferment or any other issue. With a 5 or 6 gallon batch I leave the lid on loosely and will bubble it with pure oxygen and a wand for the first 2 days then snap the lid and airlock on.

I do that because there seems to be consensus that yeast needs oxygen in the early stages of fermentation. But after reading this...

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen

.. I'm thinking that it's not necessary.

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

I'm kind of regretting going with wide neck fermenters rather than snap lid buckets now because of the lack of flexibility in keeping the hydrometer in there long term and ease of opening the bucket lid. It's a two man job to open the wide neck if we do it up too tight.

It's 2 weeks and a day today and we are still at an SG of 20 and the temp has been over 20 degrees consistently so I'm guessing the yeast had settled. On the other hand it's beginning to go clear now!

Bernardsmith I am following your advice and stirring lots and checking the SG every couple of days or so. Thanks for such a valuable tip.

6-9 months seems such a long time to wait! I don't know if I will have the patience! 2-3 will probably be my limit!

Sarah.

 

[Maylar]

The good news is that you've made enough to sample soon and still have some left for aging. It'll be drinkable in just a few weeks, be better at 3 months, and awesome at 6 months. You should start thinking about acquiring some 1 gallon jugs for breaking up your batch. Then we'll teach you about something called racking.

 

[CMcPherson]

and will bubble it with pure oxygen and a wand for the first 2 days then snap the lid and airlock on.

I do that because there seems to be consensus that yeast needs oxygen in the early stages of fermentation. But after reading this...

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen

.. I'm thinking that it's not necessary.

Pure O2 huh? How? Do you use an air stone or something like that?
I'll take a look at the article.

I'm kind of regretting going with wide neck fermenters rather than snap lid buckets now because of the lack of flexibility in keeping the hydrometer in there long term and ease of opening the bucket lid. It's a two man job to open the wide neck if we do it up too tight.

Bernardsmith I am following your advice and stirring lots and checking the SG every couple of days or so. Thanks for such a valuable tip.

I just switched to 5 gal buckets with Gamma lids. Give it a try.
Ditto on the open fermentation advice. I'm not experienced enough yet to know the difference but it sure makes me feel like I'm contributing to my ciders quality.
Too many of my other hobbies does confirm for me though that off-gassing and O2 exchange is important to the microorganism that we are nursing.

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

You should start thinking about acquiring some 1 gallon jugs for breaking up your batch. Then we'll teach you about something called racking.

Do you mean glass carboys? What's the purpose of secondary fermentation? I thought that could be done in the bottles. The kit says to just bottle or barrel, it mentions nothing about a secondary ferment, but it wouldn't because it's very vague!

Edit: To be clear, I want to carbonate if that makes any difference at all to secondary/bottling.

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

I just switched to 5 gal buckets with Gamma lids. Give it a try.
Ditto on the open fermentation advice. I'm not experienced enough yet to know the difference but it sure makes me feel like I'm contributing to my ciders quality.

Do you mean fully open, with just a towel or no lid at all like mentioned earlier in the thread? That terrifies me if I'm honest. I have read so much about keeping it clean, sterile and free of contaminants that even when I open the cap I'm super cautious.

What are gamma lids?

Apologies for posting twice, can't work out how to quote more than once in the app.

 

[Maylar]

Pure O2 huh? How? Do you use an air stone or something like that?
I'll take a look at the article.

Yep. This wand thingie: http://www.northernbrewer.com/oxygenation-kit

And a Benzomatic oxygen bottle.

Too many of my other hobbies does confirm for me though that off-gassing and O2 exchange is important to the microorganism that we are nursing.

Read the article that I linked to. It says we've all been misinformed about oxygen.

 

[seabrew8]

Cider takes forever to ferment IME compared to beer. My last cider while technically a wine fermented for 6 weeks!

 

[Maylar]

Do you mean glass carboys? What's the purpose of secondary fermentation? I thought that could be done in the bottles. The kit says to just bottle or barrel, it mentions nothing about a secondary ferment, but it wouldn't because it's very vague!

Edit: To be clear, I want to carbonate if that makes any difference at all to secondary/bottling.

Very few of us make cider from kits, and yours is exclusive to the UK so we're only guessing as to ingredients and the instructions that you've been given. Most of the responses you'll get here assume classic cider making methods that include racking to secondary to allow the cider to finish fermenting and clear. That's not what your kit is about.

The process of carbonating in your case would be to bottle when fermentation is "almost" complete, so that there's enough sugar left to create the bubbles but not so much as to bust the bottles. Unfortunately, you can't judge that by time. Without knowing what yeast strain was included in your kit, I would advise bottling at 1.005 specific gravity which is normally considered a safe level.

Without having done a secondary, you will have sediment in the bottles. No big deal to some people.

Do you mean fully open, with just a towel or no lid at all like mentioned earlier in the thread? That terrifies me if I'm honest. I have read so much about keeping it clean, sterile and free of contaminants that even when I open the cap I'm super cautious.

It terrifies me too. Fruit flies are NOT your friends.

What are gamma lids?

An alternative to the snap on lids for plastic bucket fermentors:

http://freckleface.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/gammaseals.html

Apologies for posting twice, can't work out how to quote more than once in the app.

Click the quotation mark in the first post, then the Quote button in the second.

 

[CMcPherson]

Do you mean fully open, with just a towel or no lid at all like mentioned earlier in the thread? That terrifies me if I'm honest. I have read so much about keeping it clean, sterile and free of contaminants that even when I open the cap I'm super cautious.

What are gamma lids?

Yeah... I'm not comfortable enough yet to use a towel/T-shirt/cheese cloth cover for my primary bucket. Mylar linked to the Gamma Lids.
I screw it on just enough to catch and leave it loose. When I want to aerate, I just take the lid off and then replace it when done.
Once I get a few more brews under my belt, and also begin making cider vinegar, I'll experiment with totally open fermentation. That way, if one does turn to vinegar, it won't be a waste.

Hang in there Mother. This seems to be a great group.

With a 5 or 6 gallon batch I leave the lid on loosely and will bubble it with pure oxygen and a wand for the first 2 days then snap the lid and airlock on.

I do that because there seems to be consensus that yeast needs oxygen in the early stages of fermentation. But after reading this...

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen

.. I'm thinking that it's not necessary.

Yep. This wand thingie: http://www.northernbrewer.com/oxygenation-kit

And a Benzomatic oxygen bottle.

Read the article that I linked to. It says we've all been misinformed about oxygen.

I am reading through it. From what I'm able to understand, O2 may not be used for respiration but does seem to be used for cell biosynthesis.
Regardless, isn't off-gassing the CO2 beneficial?

Why do you use O2 if you don't believe that it is necessary?
This is not a challenge but rather an honest question.

What is the duration that you use your O2 wand? Continuously or intermittently?

 

[Maylar]

I am reading through it. From what I'm able to understand, O2 may not be used for respiration but does seem to be used for cell biosynthesis.
Regardless, isn't off-gassing the CO2 beneficial?

Why do you use O2 if you don't believe that it is necessary?
This is not a challenge but rather an honest question.

What is the duration that you use your O2 wand? Continuously or intermittently?

I just started doing it, and before I read the article. Haven't done a with/without oxygen comparison yet, so I dunno how much difference it makes if any. All I did was wave the wand about for 20 seconds or so and make lots of bubbles. That batch fermented really fast but it was a different yeast and protocol from my norm so the O2 aspect is unknown. I'm sure it doesn't hurt, so I'll keep doing this at least until my little bottle of O2 is empty.

FWIW, I have a cider book by Claude Jolicoeur and he doesn't mention anything about aeration. And Nottingham yeast says it's not necessary.

I know that the mead folks are big proponents of stirring / degassing to expel CO2 and keep the yeast in suspension. And I think I've read Madam Yooper as having said she stirs her ciders too. But I've made cider with nothing but an airlock from day 1 and they turned out fine, so who knows.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thank you so much Mylar for all of the patients that you have had!
So you just do the O2 wand once then?
I've been stirring several times a day and plan to do so until the primary heavy fermentation settles down.
I LOVE Claude's book. I've devoured it. I reread sections repeatedly.

I'm done hijacking your thread now Mother.
Good luck with your new hobby.

 

[dmtaylor]

Apple juice naturally has oxygen in it, so aeration is a waste of time. It's not like you're boiling it like you would for beer, where most of the oxygen is driven off during the boil. Plus with cider most people are using dry yeast, which also requires no aeration, however this is only a very minor consideration, if at all, compared to my first point.

Some folks say there is benefit in CO2 removal during fermentation. They're probably right. But I don't bother and I like the results. One thing I do differently than some people is to rack the cider often. I recommend racking every 7-10 days for the first 4-5 weeks. In so doing, the cider is likely off-gassing to a fair extent anyway just moving from one container to another.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thanks Dave.
I'm a "if some is good then more is better" kind of guy.
So, for now at least, I'll keep on with the oxygenation.
There does seem to be a good bit of consensus on CO2 off-gassing benefits.

And as far as a "waste of time" goes... isn't this ALL a waste of time?

 

[dmtaylor]

Anything that improves quality of life and increases happiness without causing harm is not a waste of time.

 

[CMcPherson]

Agreed!!

 

[TheMotherConfessor]

Okay, so it's now been 28 days and the SG reads a consistent 1.012. I'm guessing that fermentation has now stopped. The kit says to only bottle at 1.006 or lower. What should I do?

Thanks,
Sarah.

 

[GaBrewZoo]

Throw the instructions away. Yeast will do what it wants to do. If your gravity is the same for at least three days, and the cider is starting to clear, then the yeast is done, go ahead and bottle it. If you are carbonating in the bottle, use a priming calculator to figure the amount of sugar, or honey, or whatever you're using for priming. I use brewersfriend.com for my calculators, but use one that has options for different priming agents, volumes, and temperature. Do not use the instructions that came with the kit. Let it condition at room temp for at least two to three weeks, then chill one bottle for a day and try it. Good luck, and enjoy.