Cider foamed into airlock, now what?

[M12345]

New brewer here making first batch of hard cider. I have an airlock on a 1 gallon glass wine jug. Started brewing lastnight and woke up this morning to foam in my airlock. The foam has gone down in the bottle now so there is empty space in the neck now. It's bubbling away with a bubble in the air lock every few seconds. However there is still a lot of foam in the airlock itself. Is this a problem? Did I lose a lot of yeast that was in the foam and now stuck in the airlock? What do I do to fix this, is it as simple as clean the airlock and out back on? I didn't use the whole pack of yeast, so should I add more? Thanks

 

[bernardsmith]

There is no good reason for cider makers, wine makers or mazers (those making mead) to add an airlock during primary fermentation. All you need to do is use some kind of cover - a clean dishtowel or napkin, for example - to keep dirt out. And , since you can anticipate some foaming caused by the production of carbon dioxide - you want to have some headroom in any container you use to ferment. That may mean removing a cup or so of juice from a gallon container... or it may mean using a food grade bucket as your primary or a three gallon carboy rather than a 1 gallon container if you are making a one gallon batch.
All you need to do is wash and re-sanitize your airlock ... and put it away until the gravity of your cider drops to close to 1.005. At that point most of the activity will have slowed and the yeast will no longer be producing quantities of CO2 enough to blanket the surface of the cider (the CO2 inhibits oxidation and oxidation is like rust.. it is not usually a desired outcome )... That is when you add the bung and airlock. Cider ain't beer. You don't need to have the same neuroses as brewers have when you ferment fruit or honey.
There is nothing to worry about in terms of loss of yeast but if you are using dry yeast and the pack costs - what $1.50 or thereabouts there seems to be no great advantage in not using the entire pack - yes, even for 1 gallon - and lots of potential disadvantages in not (if you store the dry yeast in less than optimal conditions and try to use it later then you may find that what is left is not in fact viable so you potentially spoil your next batch for what? the sake of 75 cents?).
Long story short, your cider will be fine.
You are just lucky that there is no solid bits of fruit in the juice because if the solids block the airlock and if the yeast is producing CO2 (half the weight of the sugar is converted into CO2) - then the neck of your carboy will act to rifle the bung and airlock and you can find your ceiling painted with fruit juice.

 

[BrotherBock]

no good reason for cider makers, wine makers or mazers (those making mead) to add an airlock during primary fermentation.

What? Keeping it sanitary and wild yeast or bacteria out sounds like a good enough reason to me. Especially if the cider or mead is session strength.

Don't worry about the foam, just pull it off, rinse it out, add new sani and put back in place. Repeat as necessary. Alternatively, put in a blow off tube until the really active stage is over.

 

[stru]

I use an airlock on every batch of wine I make... there's absolutely no reason not to.

Rinse the airlock, sanitize, replace.

 

[Maylar]

New brewer here making first batch of hard cider. I have an airlock on a 1 gallon glass wine jug. Started brewing lastnight and woke up this morning to foam in my airlock. The foam has gone down in the bottle now so there is empty space in the neck now. It's bubbling away with a bubble in the air lock every few seconds. However there is still a lot of foam in the airlock itself. Is this a problem? Did I lose a lot of yeast that was in the foam and now stuck in the airlock? What do I do to fix this, is it as simple as clean the airlock and out back on? I didn't use the whole pack of yeast, so should I add more? Thanks

The foam is called krausen, and what you describe is common when you don't leave enough space at the top. No problem at all - just rinse, sanitize and replace the airlock and watch the bubbles.

 

[max384]

There is no good reason for cider makers, wine makers or mazers (those making mead) to add an airlock during primary fermentation. All you need to do is use some kind of cover - a clean dishtowel or napkin, for example - to keep dirt out. And , since you can anticipate some foaming caused by the production of carbon dioxide - you want to have some headroom in any container you use to ferment. That may mean removing a cup or so of juice from a gallon container... or it may mean using a food grade bucket as your primary or a three gallon carboy rather than a 1 gallon container if you are making a one gallon batch.
All you need to do is wash and re-sanitize your airlock ... and put it away until the gravity of your cider drops to close to 1.005. At that point most of the activity will have slowed and the yeast will no longer be producing quantities of CO2 enough to blanket the surface of the cider (the CO2 inhibits oxidation and oxidation is like rust.. it is not usually a desired outcome )... That is when you add the bung and airlock. Cider ain't beer. You don't need to have the same neuroses as brewers have when you ferment fruit or honey.
There is nothing to worry about in terms of loss of yeast but if you are using dry yeast and the pack costs - what $1.50 or thereabouts there seems to be no great advantage in not using the entire pack - yes, even for 1 gallon - and lots of potential disadvantages in not (if you store the dry yeast in less than optimal conditions and try to use it later then you may find that what is left is not in fact viable so you potentially spoil your next batch for what? the sake of 75 cents?).
Long story short, your cider will be fine.
You are just lucky that there is no solid bits of fruit in the juice because if the solids block the airlock and if the yeast is producing CO2 (half the weight of the sugar is converted into CO2) - then the neck of your carboy will act to rifle the bung and airlock and you can find your ceiling painted with fruit juice.

Having spent time in a microbiology lab, I laugh at the idea of a "clean" dishtowel. An airlock and bung are made of a much smoother and more easily cleaned and sanitized material. Although the chance of infection using a dishtowel is admittedly pretty low, I don't see what the disadvantage is to using an airlock? Also, there is a chance for air exchange with a towel or napkin over the fermenter. Although CO2 is heavier than air, it is not much heavier, and easily mixes with air (think about the CO2 we breathe out, it doesn't settle at the bottom of our houses). That is why when we make yeast starters that we use a loose foil cover, so that we can introduce oxygen into the system (though stir bars are also used to aid in this aspect). Even if there is no infection and no oxygen introduced, why bother with first putting a towel over it, and then later adding an airlock if there is no fruit to possibly plug the airlock? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

There is actually such a thing as overpitching yeast. This is from the Wyeast website (where they have no reason to frivolously tell you not to use too much of their product):

High pitch rates can lead to:
Very low ester production
Very fast fermentations
Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
Autolysis (Yeasty flavors due to lysing of cells)

http://www.wyeastlab.com/com-pitch-rates.cfm

Also as a side note, if you're using wine/champagne yeasts for your cider, it's cheap, but I prefer to use Nottingham for my ciders, and that's a bit pricier.

 

[bernardsmith]

I don't know how many gallons of wine, mead and cider I have made over the years and I pitch the yeast in a food grade plastic bucket covered with a towel during the primary so that I can easily stir the liquor twice a day and then rack to an airlocked carboy after the gravity has dropped to around 1.005 and I have never ever had any problem with volunteer organisms given the pH of the liquor, the size of the colony of active yeast and the yeast's activity in creating an environment that suits it in preference to any chance spores or cells that may be in the air. But hey! if you feel the need to wear both belt and braces (suspenders) to keep your pants from falling down that is your business. I just think that that philosophy comes from brewers not from vintners.

and interestingly, I don't know of any wine makers who use a yeast starter or feel the need to use a yeast starter.

As for the reason to cover the mouth of the bucket with a towel, that keeps out dirt, flies, pets and children. The reason to add a bung and airlock after the active fermentation has slowed is to inhibit oxidation but since yeast uses oxygen in cell production and repair and since any oxygen in the must (however much you have aerated the must before pitching the yeast) will be depleted in the first few hours then there would seem to be some value in stirring in additional oxygen during the first few days while the yeast is both reproducing and consuming the sugar... But as I say, what works for you works for you..

@Maylar, I thought krausen was essentially foam produced by the CO2 trapped by and in the proteins from the grains. What protein are there in apples or apple juice? There are pectins but pectins are carbohydrates not proteins. The carbohydrates can trap CO2 but that foam isn't truly "krausen". That's why I say that wine ain't beer. And apples ain't grain.

 

[max384]

I don't know how many gallons of wine, mead and cider I have made over the years and I pitch the yeast in a food grade plastic bucket covered with a towel during the primary so that I can easily stir the liquor twice a day and then rack to an airlocked carboy after the gravity has dropped to around 1.005 and I have never ever had any problem with volunteer organisms given the pH of the liquor, the size of the colony of active yeast and the yeast's activity in creating an environment that suits it in preference to any chance spores or cells that may be in the air. But hey! if you feel the need to wear both belt and braces (suspenders) to keep your pants from falling down that is your business. I just think that that philosophy comes from brewers not from vinters.

If you're covering a plastic bucket with a towel and stirring twice a day, you're surely oxygenating your cider. A CO2 blanket is a very fickle thing. Any air movement, and particularly movement of the cider below will disrupt the CO2 blanket and allow room air on top of your cider. If you're stirring the cider, the some oxygen WILL dissolve into solution. I hope it doesn't come across as me telling you how to make your cider, because that's not what I'm trying to accomplish. If you like your cider this way, by no means stop doing what you're doing. However, I wouldn't necessarily suggest this method to others.


Why stir anyhow? The yeast certainly don't need help finding sugars to eat. All I see that accomplishing is greater chance of contamination each time your stirrer is introduced and oxygenation of your cider. Am I missing something?

 

[max384]

and interestingly, I don't know of any wine makers who use a yeast starter or feel the need to use a yeast starter.

As for the reason to cover the mouth of the bucket with a towel, that keeps out dirt, flies, pets and children. The reason to add a bung and airlock after the active fermentation has slowed is to inhibit oxidation but since yeast uses oxygen in cell production and repair and since any oxygen in the must (however much you have aerated the must before pitching the yeast) will be depleted in the first few hours then there would seem to be some value in stirring in additional oxygen during the first few days while the yeast is both reproducing and consuming the sugar... But as I say, what works for you works for you..

You added this part after I replied!

If you pitch the proper amount of yeast, you don't need to worry about yeast propagation in your cider. Of course there will still be some reproduction, but it's not something you need to provide oxygen for.

There are two types of respiration that yeast use: aerobic and anaerobic. In aerobic respiration, oxygen is used and no alcohol is produced. In anaerobic respiration, oxygen is not used, and alcohol is produced. Having some oxygen available to start with is a good thing, but after that you want to keep the oxygen out so that the yeasties can concentrate on making booze!

 

[brottman]

The thing that keeps amazing me here is the vastly different opinions that seem to prevail based on which forum your browsing. I sort of agree with BenardSmith on giving yeasties plenty of oxygen and degassing during early stages at I believe this thinking comes from a Mead making background. Ultimately though I realize that I'm still a noob and don't really know what I'm talking about!

 

[mbrown121500]

Personally I use an airlock, and can see reasons not to but the way I look at it is simple. I tend to leave most of my ciders in primary for about a month, if there is an infection that batch is trash and I start over. If I had to waste 20 seconds when I stirred (which I don't) that's well worth the month I'm wasting if I contaminated my batch.

That being said I've ever only have two foam into the airlocks once cause I filled it too much, and second was my first batch and I thought hmmmm maybe u should pick up the 3 gal carboy and give it a good shake...things I have learned from.

 

[siletzspey]

The thing that keeps amazing me here is the vastly different opinions that seem to prevail based on which forum your browsing.

Indeed. And while some of the "opinions" are different, I'd also say some of the facts are different too. Yeast attenuation rates are very important to beer makers, but not apple cider makers. It may be worth a separate thread to call out some of the differences for beer, apple cider and fruit cider makers. I've certainly been led astray by my beer making friends.

Oh yeah - I always use an airlock, and always have a spare on hand for those rare instances when I get a foam blowout, or fruit flies crawling in thru the very-small lid holes. With cloth, I bet my fruit fly flock would be even worse.

From what I've been told, and it's what I do... the yeast only need oxygen in the first few days, after which stirring and/or lots of head space for oxygen exposure becomes unnecessary, and I'd argue they just become a liability.

--SiletzSpey

 

[bernardsmith]

...

From what I've been told, and it's what I do... the yeast only need oxygen in the first few days, after which stirring and/or lots of head space for oxygen exposure becomes unnecessary, and I'd argue they just become a liability.

--SiletzSpey

Right, totally agree but rather than use a watch to determine when oxygen is unnecessary (and I believe that while some of the cells are fermenting others are budding so it is not as if a switch goes off/on and every yeast cell changes from repairing cells to reproducing to fermenting anymore than every person on the planet begins to start reproducing on the 25th of October ...) I use an hydrometer to measure the density of the liquid and so determine how much sugar remains. I rack and seal when the gravity is close to 1.005 and if that takes 2 days or 2 weeks so be it. Sealing a carboy and refusing to measure the gravity is something that a beer maker might do but it makes little sense when you typically work with fruit and skins and pulp and you want to be able to squeeze the fruit (tannins are not expelled because of pressure) and in my experience using the density of the liquor is a far better indicator of when it is time to rack than counting bubbles in an airlock or counting days on the calendar.

 

[Maylar]

@Maylar, I thought krausen was essentially foam produced by the CO2 trapped by and in the proteins from the grains. What protein are there in apples or apple juice? There are pectins but pectins are carbohydrates not proteins. The carbohydrates can trap CO2 but that foam isn't truly "krausen". That's why I say that wine ain't beer. And apples ain't grain.

Ya got me, bro. I'm an engineer, not a chemist. But the brown foamy stuff that forms in the top of a cider ferment I've always seen referred to as krausen. With the ciders that I've made the amount of krausen varies with the type of juice I've used. Orchard cider gives me a 2-3 inch foam every time -

The grocery store apple juice that I currently have in primary gave me virtually zero foam, and very little lees.

Different terms for different brews I guess... trub, lees, must, wort, whatever.

 

[bernardsmith]

I may be wrong - I usually am - but the presence of krausen explains why beer will hold a head and why cider cannot. The surface tension of the liquid in beer is far stronger than the surface tension of cider because of the presence of protein chains - (which is why bread that has been kneaded well rises well and bread that has been poorly kneaded creates a poor crumb) and that too, I think largely explains the difference in mouth feel between a well made beer and a well made cider.

 

[Rauhallinen]

Having spent time in a microbiology lab, I laugh at the idea of a "clean" dishtowel. An airlock and bung are made of a much smoother and more easily cleaned and sanitized material.

I'm a microbiologist and I spend all of my working days in a microbiology lab.

I don't see any problem with not using an air lock during the primary fermentation as long as as there is some clean cloth, plastic wrap, etc (and yes, clean as in not perfectly sterile) there to block most of air flow into the fermentation vessel.

Yeasts will be the overwhelmingly dominant organisms in this stage anyway and will consume nearly all of the minimal oxygen entering into the fermentation vessel. Whatever minimal contamination might come is neglible. Cider has been made this way for centuries and there are still to this day craft cider makers in traditional cider regions making cider this way. And they make bloody brilliant ciders. People who actually make their living off from the product. It works.

Personally, I mostly use air lock at this stage because I got one and it's there usually ready for my demi-john. Its no extra fuss to use one. But I've, for example, after krausen getting into a airlock left the air lock off for few days due to beign too lazy to clean it quickly. Just had some aluminum foil on top and had zero problems with that.

 

[MarkKF]

I use a three piece airlock on my primary. Don't think liquid is necessary but if I have vodka I add it. (Why not?)

I use the S shape airlock on the secondary because the volume increases and decreases with temperature changes.


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