Chilling methods/alternatives?

[sentfromspain]

So I have been brewing for over a year now, and every time I brew I use a copper immersion chiller to bring down the wort temperature after a boil.

The thing is, while I save as much water as I can for clean up later, and use the rest of the water for my yard, I have to admit that cooling the wort this way requires a LOT of water. I know there are ways to recycle the water even further, but right now I can't do much else.

So I pose the question: if I take a stainless steel wort chiller, hook it up to my kettle's spigot, and immerse the chiller in a tub filled with ice and some salt, and forcing the hot wort to go through the tubing, would the process be more effective?

The stainless steal would not oxidate, and if I had enough tubing I am sure that the beer would come out at a reasonable temperature without having to resort to using so much water. Also, this way the wort volume wouldn't be as much an issue. You could have 5 gallons, 10 gallons, 15 gallons, etc., and the chilling time would be more or less the same.

What do y'all think? Or does anybody know a better, low cost, and higher efficiency method?

 

[astronomical]

what does water cost... $3 for 1000 gallons here

 

[sentfromspain]

It isn't about the cost of water that I'm talking about. I think it is a waste to use countless of gallons of water to chill a pot of wort.

When I say low cost I mean to ask for solutions that don't involve spending hundreds of dollars.

 

[NewBrewB]

Ive been toying with the idea of building a closed chilling system filed with a bleach/salt water solution in two copper wort chillers and the hoses between with a small pump to circulate.
Then I would only waste one bucket of icewater per batch, for the pre-chiller and some sanitizing solution to sanitize the other chiller that gets imersed....

My only concern was what pump to use and if storing a full chilling system would be annoying because of the weight.


I guess I could just fill the system each time and then attach the pump...prob less than a gal to fill the system. I could use the pump to drain the water and then my compressor to blow out the lines.

 

[E-Mursed]

25ft CFWC with my old 20ft IC as a pre-chiller in a bucket of ice water.

Beer comes in at 200+ and leaves at 59.

I push water/wort from both ends at a very low rate through the CFWC and get great cooling results.

 

[sentfromspain]

I think the salt would start corroding the copper. You might switch it for stainless steel, but then you wouldn't get the same kind of heat absorption going on.

The reason why I thought attaching the immersion chiller to the kettle spigot would be the best (if you didn't have a kettle spigot, I'm sure a sturdy siphon would do) is that you would be using gravity and so a motor wouldn't be necessary.

 

[sentfromspain]

E-Mursed, can you de-acronym CFWC and IC for me? I'm not too up-to-date on the lingo.

 

[E-Mursed]

CFWC - counter flow wort chiller
IC - immersion chiller

 

[sentfromspain]

Ahhh, thank you.

So your cooling process takes only as long as it takes the beer to drain from the kettle? If that's the case, sounds marvelous.

 

[MalFet]

Some people pump the wort through the copper with good results, but you can just as easily buy a $30 pond pump to move ice water through it. Similar results, easier cleaning.

 

[Zamial]

I got to see a Rebel Brewer plate chiller (I am sure most are comparable) in action and talk to the brewer using it. He said it is all he uses and had it clog only 1 time due to loose pellet hops in the BK.

He took his wort from boil to the low 70's in 10 minutes time. I use a SS IM and a friend uses a copper IM and CFC. The plate chiller out preforms hands down IMO.

We are looking to move but when we do I will prob have a hydroponic garden (for fruits and veggies) if not a full blown auqaponic green house. I will be using my extra water to assist the rain reservoir collection system. I currently also use as much of the run off water as possible to clean/fill the bottle soaking tub, ect. I have even read there are folks here that use that water to do laundry...

 

[sentfromspain]

Yeah I thought about the plate chiller, but I am not in the market for it right now. Though in the long run it might pay for itself....

 

[looneybomber]

I had the idea of burying a 55gal barrel in my backyard to use as my wort chiller reservoir. Currently I don't have an IC, but I plan on getting one. It would be a closed system, so you'd need to initially fill it, treat it, and buy a pump.

 

[sentfromspain]

Well lets say though that you wanted to up your volume. Instead of 5 or 10 gallons, you wanted closer to 50 or 100 gallons.

The CFWC & IC method would work the best just because of the pure volume, wouldn't it?

 

[H-ost]

Explore No-Chill

 

[sentfromspain]

I've seen that one. The "Australian method"....

In theory it sounds solid. I just worry about the effects the nearly boiling liquid would have on a plastic food grade container. Maybe a stainless steel barrel (I have a 15 gallon one), cleaned to perfection, would do the trick.

 

[H-ost]

I have seen no ill effects using my HDPE containers. Some people use their corny kegs to do it but a plain SS tank probalby wouldn't work. As the wort cools it will create a "vacuum" (low pressure zone). To counteract this, people who use cornies add some CO2 to the keg to pressurize it otherwise it would not seal and you would be pulling in O2.

FWIW, the cost of a chiller when I upgraded to 10 gallon batches was more than ideal for me and I also did not like using all that extra water either. I love no chill and so do many people that use it, people that use their chillers love them too. Two different methods and they have both been proven to make beer, take your pick.

 

[sentfromspain]

Hrmm.... and airlocking it would produce the same effect?

 

[cyclogenesis]

My setup involves a 90Gal rainbarrel which sits under a downspout and a pump.. Rainwater then gets pumped onto the garden (with first ~20l diverted to drains as it is a bit hot...)

 

[sentfromspain]

That is to say, instead of the steel cover, putting a rubber plug and airlock. Should avoid the whole vacuum situation while maintaing a healthy environment.

I am just not sure what difference sealing the container against O2 would accomplish if inside the container there is O2 already. If it isn`t fermenting, the same amount of O2 exchange should be going on whether it is covered or not, no?

 

[dbrewski]

I definitely think about the amount of water I am using. The earlier post about getting a pond pump is a good idea and it's what I do. I now use tap water to knock off the first 60 degrees or so of temp, then I bring out a 5gal bucket of ice and redirect the waste water into it. Drop in the pond pump, hook it up to the IC, and let it run. I think this is the best balance between water usage, ice usage, ease of use, and cooling/cleanup.

[Edit] the 5gal bucket is only about half full of ice. Frozen water bottles work too, but not quite as good.

 

[StainlessBrewing]

I run my hose straight to the pool so no wasting water here. I think a lot of people don't like dealing with having to bags of ice everytime they brew.

 

[StainlessBrewing]

With summertime temps though you don't have much of a choice but to incorparate ice in some way.

 

[dbrewski]

Explore No-Chill

I have been seriously tempted to do this. You can find some decent polypro containers - find the thread here on it - for only $14. But I just picked up three more corny's this weekend so I might very well use one and try this out.

 

[Zamial]

That is to say, instead of the steel cover, putting a rubber plug and airlock. Should avoid the whole vacuum situation while maintaing a healthy environment.

I am just not sure what difference sealing the container against O2 would accomplish if inside the container there is O2 already. If it isn`t fermenting, the same amount of O2 exchange should be going on whether it is covered or not, no?

Airlocks work on positive pressure not negative. If there is negative pressure inside the fermenter it is going to cause what is commonly called "suck back" (TONS of threads on this...) If you want to see this for yourself fill an air lock with fresh water, tilt your head back and blow into it, that would be positive pressure. Then suck on it and you will have a mouthful of water and the airlock will be nearly dry, negative pressure.

 

[H-ost]

That is to say, instead of the steel cover, putting a rubber plug and airlock. Should avoid the whole vacuum situation while maintaing a healthy environment.

I am just not sure what difference sealing the container against O2 would accomplish if inside the container there is O2 already. If it isn`t fermenting, the same amount of O2 exchange should be going on whether it is covered or not, no?

Zamial had a good answer why an airlock wouldn't work. The other part of it is that with the HDPE containers you're "supposed to" squeeze out as much air as possible before sealing (I don't bother with it too much unless I ended with a lot less wort than expected). With the Corny Keg method you have the ability to purge the entire headspace with CO2. I guess a strong SS tank could hold up against the pressure, you would just need a good lid for it. But, since SS ins't very flexible I don't know how easy it would be to open it (with all the pressure) unless you had a relief valve like in a corny keg.

 

[H-ost]

I have been seriously tempted to do this. You can find some decent polypro containers - find the thread here on it - for only $14. But I just picked up three more corny's this weekend so I might very well use one and try this out.

Its one of the few brewing processes that does not require much money to try and if you don't like it then you just bought a cheap fermenter

 

[sentfromspain]

H-ost and Zamail, you got a point about the airlock.

My steel barrel is a heineken keg. The hole at the top could be covered easily with one of the various plastic fermentation covers I have at home. I could put a weight on top of that, so the keg would remain covered and the flimsy food grade plastic material could be taken off even with vacuum suction.... or am I missing somethin?

 

[VanBrewski]

My exterior tap is not on the same side of the house that I brew on. Rather than carry a kettle full of boiling wort from one side of the house to the other to get to the tap I went to a closed system. I use a 25L cooler and a sump pump I bought off craigslist for $20. I drop in a couple ice blocks made by freezing water in 2L milk cartons. I change the water twice by diverting the outflow from the IC away from the cooler and refill with fresh cold water from the sink. Not a perfect system, but it solved a lot of my problems and really reduced the amount of water I was using.

 

[erockomania]

Can no-chill increase dms?

 

[H-ost]

Can no-chill increase dms?

This was a concern and has been debated. I'm not sure what the actual conclusion was but I can say, from my experience, I do not notice DMS flavors.

 

[djt17]

I did my first no-chill in a corny keg this weekend. It sure was nice not dragging the garden hose out to the garage & stirring my wort for 40 min. I placed the corny on my basement floor, the next morning the wort was 64°, racked to my carboy & pitched.

 

[H-ost]

I guess it is worth mentioning that people no-chill in their kettles by placing a star-san soaked towel over the top and putting the lid on. You can try it this way and if you don't have a ball valve on your Boil Kettle or a metal siphon this is the way you will probably want to try it.

 

[Jayhem]

With summertime temps though you don't have much of a choice but to incorparate ice in some way.

Not if you have a 380' well in a slab of granite and install a faucet 3' away from your well head!

I too am interested in less water waste. Right now I collect the water in 40 gal trash cans and use the hottest water to do a load or 2 of laundry, save the rest to water plants.

 

[Sacdan]

I agree with the idea of getting a Plate Chiller. Not only do you save water, you save time. I can get a 10-12 gallon bacth to pitching temp in 3-4 minutes. It cools as fast as I can pump it. On hot days, I use my IC as an pre-chiller. I froze a 2L bottle filled with water and put it, along with whatever ice is in the ice-maker, in with the IC in a keg with the top cut off. I run the water from my sink, through the IC in ice water, to the Plate Chiller. The water coming out of the Plate Chiller goes into my Mash Tun to clean up with. I have done a 12 gallon batch in less than 3 hours from milling to fermenting.

 

[erockomania]

I agree with the idea of getting a Plate Chiller. Not only do you save water, you save time. I can get a 10-12 gallon bacth to pitching temp in 3-4 minutes. It cools as fast as I can pump it. On hot days, I use my IC as an pre-chiller. I froze a 2L bottle filled with water and put it, along with whatever ice is in the ice-maker, in with the IC in a keg with the top cut off. I run the water from my sink, through the IC in ice water, to the Plate Chiller. The water coming out of the Plate Chiller goes into my Mash Tun to clean up with. I have done a 12 gallon batch in less than 3 hours from milling to fermenting.

What size plate chiller?

 

[Sacdan]

I bought the 30 plate 2.9"x12". One of the best investments I've made in brewing.

 

[tnsen]

getting back to sentfromspains question....that is exactly the idea I have been thinking about ..as a newbie looking into jumping allgrain....but, wich would be better as a flow thru chiller, stainless, or copper tubing ?...and what fitting is available to connect to the valve on the brew pot...I was thinking bout making a mash tun with the cube cooler...then removing the manifold in the bottom....rinse , fill with ice and water....then connect the flow thru chiller from the brew pot...thru the ice bath then out the outlet in the tun/ now wart chiller bath ,but I cant find the fittings that will do this...any ideas....Tom

 

[sentfromspain]

How about a funnel instead of a fitting? Should work just as effectively.

And as for the material, stainless or copper.... if you want to add salt to the ice water so it gets colder, then I would suggest stainless steel because the salt will corrode the copper. If you don't plan on using salt, then use copper because it is more effective at the whole heat transfer thing.

 

[jtakacs]

I did my first no-chill in a corny keg this weekend. It sure was nice not dragging the garden hose out to the garage & stirring my wort for 40 min. I placed the corny on my basement floor, the next morning the wort was 64°, racked to my carboy & pitched.

that's similar to what i do - i boil, cap, clamp (maintaining the vacuum) and store at ambient for about 18 hours. strain, aerate, pitch and have had zero problems.

i do have one high DMS brew, but that's a short boil berliner w/ 50% pilsner but i blame the lack of boil.