Change black butte clone to CDA

[NAUGHTYDOGBREWING]

Hello everyone,

I recently was given ingredients for two 5 gallon batches of a black butte clone. I brewed the first batch and everything is looking good so far at just over 2 weeks in primary. On the second batch i want to do things a little different. I would like to turn this recipe into a CDA or black IPA (which ever name you prefer). I was wondering what everyone would suggest i use for hops and at what times to put them in. also what i should use for dry hopping.

The black butte clone recipe is as follows: Edited to what I brewed.

6.6lbs Amber LME
1lb Light DME
10oz Special Roast Malt Grain
1/2lb 10l crystal malt grain
3/4lb midnight wheat malt
1/4lb wheat malt
1oz Warrior hops (60 min)
1oz Cascade Hops (60 min)
1tsp Irish Moss (60 min)
1oz Fuggle (randomly after 15 min)
White Lab British Ale yeast (made starter)

Dry Hops with 2oz pellet Ahtanum

Target OG 1.064
Corrected OG 1.063

Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[SilverZero]

You should bump up the malt a bit to get into IPA territory as far as fermentables, but the real alteration will be adding some more back-end hops. I'm not good at suggesting varieties, but you'll want a few oz split between 30, 15, 1, and flameout additions, plus 2-4oz of something you like for dry hopping. Just my opinion.

 

[NAUGHTYDOGBREWING]

Thanks silver.

Does anyone have any input on how much dme to use to bump the gravity and what type?

As for hops my favorites in an ipa are citrus C's.but I don't know how these will be in a cda. Does anyone have any input on what hop verities work well with cda's?

 

[Keffa]

30 minute additions don't do much for flavor or aroma, they more or less add bitterness without adding anything else. 20 minutes and less is where you want to be.

As to what to add, Simcoe is a good choice, if you can find some, as would be Centennial or Citra. Deschutes Hop in the Dark is a fantastic BIPA (I don't give a damn, it's a black IPA to me, even if it's an oxymoron of nomenclature). It uses oats and crystal malts, and is 75 IBU according to Deschutes' website. That'd be a starting point.


Good luck.

 

[NAUGHTYDOGBREWING]

Thanks for the thoughts. centennial are my favorite hops in an ipa I just didn't know how they would fit a CDA. I'll add some to the end of the boil. Should I just completely replace the hops that came with my kit? Or use them and just add more?

Still wondering what to boost og with. Any thoughts on this are welcome.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Keffa]

Thanks for the thoughts. centennial are my favorite hops in an ipa I just didn't know how they would fit a CDA. I'll add some to the end of the boil. Should I just completely replace the hops that came with my kit? Or use them and just add more?

Still wondering what to boost og with. Any thoughts on this are welcome.

Thanks again everyone.

I recommend finding and trying Hop in the Dark if you haven't already. That's a damn good CDA/BIPA, and it's got a good bit of both pine and citrus character, at least it did to my palate.

 

[SilverZero]

Thanks for the thoughts. centennial are my favorite hops in an ipa I just didn't know how they would fit a CDA. I'll add some to the end of the boil. Should I just completely replace the hops that came with my kit? Or use them and just add more?

Still wondering what to boost og with. Any thoughts on this are welcome.

Thanks again everyone.

One pound of DME will add 44 points to 1 gallon, or 8.8 points to 5 gallons. (44 points per pound per gallon.) LME will add 37 PPG, so one pound of LME will add 7.4 points to 5 gallons.

 

[NAUGHTYDOGBREWING]

I'm sort of a noob and that lost me. I'm guessing that's on the hydrometer?

 

[SilverZero]

I'm sort of a noob and that lost me. I'm guessing that's on the hydrometer?

Yep. If you're at 1.040 and you add 1 pound DME to a 5-gallon batch, your new gravity would be 1.048(8). You'd have to know your OG, which would call for a hydrometer. Or just dump in a pound, it will strengthen the malt a bit and add some alcohol.

 

[NAUGHTYDOGBREWING]

so if i add one more 3.3lb jar of lme it will boost me to about 1.076 which i'm sure my math is wrong about 7.6abv? Do you think this would be too much? that would make the total amount of LME 9.9lbs, sounds like a lot to me. Maybe just add about 2lbs of DME? i want the alcohol to be a little higher like an ipa. i think I have The hops about figured out. With that high of an og i will make a larger starter than i did last time which was about 450ML if i remember correctly it had i think a half cup of dme in it. for aerating i'm using pure o2 i hope that will also help the yeast kick off.

Does anyone have any opinions on this good or bad? I'm still pretty new with only about 5 batches under my belt and i recently started doing full boils, cooling down to correct pitching temps, adding pure o2, using a yeast starter and fermenting mid 60's. I'm hoping this will improve my beers because my last few have not been very good. I also was extremely obsessive about sanitizing everything.

Please if this is starting to look crazy like too much extract or anything let me know so i dont end up with something that is undesirable.

 

[SilverZero]

9.9lbs isn't terribly high, that's equivalent to about 16.5lbs base malt grain, which I think is just right for an IPA. Add in the specialty dark grains (which are about 7% of the total bill, if converted to all-grain) and you should get some nice color and a bit of malty body.

EDIT - Sorry, that was for DME. For LME, 3.3lbs will get you to 1.076 from 1.052, your math was correct. More like 13lbs base malt equivalent. I just ran it through BeerSmith and it says more like 1.072OG for a 5-gallon batch, and 7.1% ABV, but I could have some weird corrections in there somewhere. Good for an IPA.

Looks good!

 

[NAUGHTYDOGBREWING]

Thanks for the help Silver. I'll be brewing this next Saturday. This should be a fun one. I'll keep everyone updated on how the brew day goes and how it turns out.

 

[NAUGHTYDOGBREWING]

So I've never used Beersmith before so I downloaded it to play around with. There is a lot going on in that program.

Anyway, it says to get the amount of yeast I would need for this batch of beer I would need to make a 4 liter starter. That seems like a very large starter to me. Does this seem excessive to anyone else? I only have a 1 liter flask but I have a bunch of growler laying around. That would be about 3 growlers worth of starter.

I know I'm probably in the wrong forum now to be talking about starters but any ideas?

Thanks again.

Edit: I also noticed if I had a stir plate I would only need a 1 liter starter. That seems like a big difference to me. Anyone think I should be ok pitching about 8-900 ml of starter and aerate the wort well with pure 02? also I dont know how much dme to use for how much liquid.

Looks like I'll be doing some more searching to find out every thing I need to know.

 

[SilverZero]

You don't need a starter at all. They definitely can be helpful to get the yeast going fast, but generally a single package of yeast will do well up to 1.100OG. That said, if you do a starter, anything helps. What you could do is a step-up starter: Make a 1L starter, let it go 2 days, cold crash it overnight, then add another liter of wort the next day and let it grow again for 2 days, then crash it again and decant. If you start now, you could step it 3 times and pitch it right at the peak of the third step.

Stir plates keep the yeast up and moving, and help more oxygen diffuse through during fermentation. You can approach this by just swirling and shaking every time you walk by the starter, or every few hours.

You may also want to consider just using dry yeast. One package of dry yeast, properly hydrated in water, will give you over 200 billion yeast cells (a liquid vial or package even at very good freshness will give you about half of this, and most of them are theoretically already a few months old and down to maybe 40% viability, but they are date-stamped so you can check). And it's a lot easier to just rehydrate and pitch, even to pitch two packages, and have enough yeast. Actually, for your recipe, 2 packs of yeast might be too much yeast, which has potential downsides as well.

I did my first two batches with liquid starters, and I've been using dry since, and they've all come out good.

Further reading: http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2010/12/14/yeast-starters-for-home-brewing-beer-part-1/

 

[SouthBay]

I don't think it would hurt to do a one liter starter. use about .25 lbs dme (half a cup or so) in one liter of water, and give it a day or three until its cooking along, then pitch the whole mess into your main wort.

 

[NAUGHTYDOGBREWING]

So, I started my starter that will be stepped up. I found a recipe by John Palmer and it says to use half cup dme to a half pint (1 cup) water. this seems like a very small amount of water to dme. Should I be using this ratio? if I should be using this ratio i have plenty of room to make it like 4 times larger. What do you guys think?

I already started my first round of the step up starter but I can change the ratio to whatever for my second round. let me know what sounds right.

Thanks again every who has contributed to my amateur recipe modification experiment.

Edit: After completely over thinking this I made a starter that was 800ml and 1 cup DME and about a teaspoon of nutrient. Is this going to be way high on OG for a starter?

 

[Brewitt]

I didn't see where you decided on hops and, if so, what ones? I just bottled a BIPA/CDA yesterday that is quite similar to yours but all grain. That one has Chinook bittering, Simcoe and Chinook mid-boil and Simcoe and Amarillo at shutoff and for dry hopping.

Great piney, citrusy flavor profile. Details are here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/st...n-imperial-black-ipa-clone-282914/index7.html

 

[NAUGHTYDOGBREWING]

I didn't see where you decided on hops and, if so, what ones? I just bottled a BIPA/CDA yesterday that is quite similar to yours but all grain. That one has Chinook bittering, Simcoe and Chinook mid-boil and Simcoe and Amarillo at shutoff and for dry hopping.

Great piney, citrusy flavor profile. Details are here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/st...n-imperial-black-ipa-clone-282914/index7.html

Thanks for the help.

I have not completely decided on hops yet. I was thinking probably Columbus for bittering and centennial for flavor/aroma.

I'm doing a full boil on this extract. can you give my any clues on how much hops to add? I'm planning Columbus at 60 and a lot more centennial at 20 15 10 5? does that sound ok?

The part I'm really unsure on is how much to add at these times. Please anyone pitch in your thoughts.

 

[Brewitt]

I have made two black IPAs. One had 97 IBU with additions as you describe. I generally use 2 to 4 oz whole leaf for dry hopping IPAs, black or otherwise. More recently my IPAs have had the same amount of hops but with less added early to give me about 70-80 IBUs because I find that the bittering becomes overwhelming at times and the addition at 15 min or later for flavor and aroma are more satisfying. Centennial and Columbus will be a great combination. Cascade is another easlily available hop with good aroma characteristics. Citra, with some moderation, is another great option. Gives some grapefruit and passion fruit/tropical character in my opinion.

 

[NAUGHTYDOGBREWING]

Edited OP with the recipe I ended up brewing. I had some technical difficulties with some brew equipment so the day took a little longer than i expected but overall a good brew day.

Recipe didnt end up being anything like I originally thought I would brew but I'll be making another CDA again and might do things a little different. Hopefully this will turn into a tasty brew.

Please, any input on what you might have done different please feel free to let me know.

 

[NAUGHTYDOGBREWING]

Another update.

First time I have ever had to rig up a blow off tube on one of my 6 gallon better bottles.

Checked to see how fermentation was going and it looked like it was about to blow the airlock off. krausen was foaming out everywhere.

I pulled the tube off of my autosiphon and sanitized it. put it in a small pot filled with sanitized water and to my surprise it fit perfectly in the hole my airlock came out of.