Carbonation when ending fermentation early

[Happyhammer]

Ok, please be gentle, based on other threads I've read I realise there is a carbonation debate, an SO2 debate and also discussion on how to maintain sweetness in your finished cider. So here are my questions:

• Can I use carbonation tablets if I stop fermentation early? AND
• Will they work if I halt the fermentation using sulphites and kill off the yeast?

Some additional information...

• My OG was 1.044 (I am using crushed pears and crab apples)
• I'd rather not back sweeten
• I want my cider to retain some fruit flavour
• I don't want my cider to cause pucker due to dryness

Thanks in advance.

 

[Maylar]

Sulfites don't kill yeast. You can't halt fermentation early with chemicals. And if you could, you can't get carbonation.

 

[ten80]

Sulfites don't kill yeast. TRUE, unless you dose really high. You can't halt fermentation early with chemicals Disagreed, see below. And if you could, you can't get carbonation Agreed.

Where I disagree is that adding sulfites PLUS potassium sorbate at the right dosing will prevent yeast replication gradually halts the fermentation after a short period of time when used in conjunction with racking. Not exactly "yeast kill" but more of a "yeast inhibition" effect, and it won't stop an highly-active fermentation very quickly. This is well documented in wine and cidermaking and is easy to find with a Google Search. Where I do agree is that it is not a very practical or "natural" way to stop a fermentation that has residual sugars.

I'd say that the solution is to let the cider ferment out completely, back-sweeten with a non-fermentable sugar (xylitol or sorbitol), then prime and bottle and let the cider carbonate naturally. I've found that 100-200g of sorbitol per 5 gallons will have an appreciable sweetening effect on 5 gallons of 1.000 FG slightly tannic cider.

 

[Drewed]

Agreed with above. You can't stop a fermentation and then bottle carbonate with yeast. You can force carbonate with kegs, but thats cheating - lol.
What I do is let the cider ferment dry, then back-sweeten to taste and add what is needed for proper amount of carbonation. Then I monitor the carbonation pressure and pasteurize the bottles when the level of carbonation is where I want it. Look at the thread "Easy stove top pasteurization," or search for "cooler pasteurization. " As long as you pay attention to what you are doing it is easy, SAFE, and effective.

 

[Happyhammer]

How about if I halt the fermentation by crash chilling the cider will that halt the fermentation early and retain some sweetness in the cider? I could then do a forced carbonation, pasteurise then bottle?

 

[JimRausch]

What I do is let the cider ferment dry, then back-sweeten to taste and add what is needed for proper amount of carbonation. Then I monitor the carbonation pressure and pasteurize the bottles when the level of carbonation is where I want it. Look at the thread "Easy stove top pasteurization," or search for "cooler pasteurization. " As long as you pay attention to what you are doing it is easy, SAFE, and effective.

Drewed beat me to it. This is exactly what I do. I backsweeten and prime with frozen apple juice concentrate then pasteurize using the cooler pasteurization method. Has worked every time (4 years in a row).

 

[Happyhammer]

Thanks Jim but I'm trying to avoid back sweetening if possible. I am also happy to force carbonate, although some think this is "cheating" I'd rather force carbonate than add concentrate or artificial sweetener at the end to obtain the sweetness.

I just need a method of halting the fermentation to enable me to crash chill for carbonation, bottle and then pasteurise. Will the crash chill halt the fermentation long enough for me to force carbonate, bottle and cap the cider and then enable me to pasteurise using the cooler method you mentioned? Also will heating the bottles for pasteurisation awaken the yeast and cause the already carbonated bottles to explode?

 

[Happyhammer]

I just read this thread and the comments
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-with-pics.193295/
and I think I found my answer, please correct me if I get this wrong or it doesn't make sense.

1. Measure SG until it reaches 1.010 - 1.014
2. Crash Chill to stop fermentation
3. Rack and force carbonate in keg at low temp
4. Bottle and cap from keg using beer gun
5. Pasteurise

Did I miss anything?

 

[Maylar]

1..2...ok
3. Rack onto potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulfite (Campden) to prevent more fermentation.
4.. ok
5. No need to pasteurize if you can keg.

 

[Happyhammer]

Thanks for your response Dave,

Can you confirm a couple of assumptions please?

1. I still need to rack into the keg 24 hours after applying the Camden and then force carbonate before moving to 4 as no yeast left for bottle carbonation?
2. the pasteurisation is not required because the Camden has killed off the yeast?

Also I still intend to bottle the cider from the keg, the keg is for carbonation only.

 

[Maylar]

When the yeast has fallen out and the cider is clear, you would rack onto potassium sorbate and sulfite in the keg. The sorbate will prevent further fermentation and the sulfite is an antioxidant. You can carbonate and bottle from the keg immediately after that.

My method is to rack to secondary at about 1.010 and let the cider finish fermenting and clear. Usually 3-4 weeks. Then I'll rack to the keg with the chemicals and sweeten to my liking. I can't cold crash more than about a gallon, so I've never tried that method.

 

[Happyhammer]

Thanks for sticking with me Dave, it's sinking in slowly, let's see if I can summarise it.

1. Measure SG until it reaches 1.010 - 1.014
2. Crash Chill to stop / pause fermentation
3. Wait for yeast to fall and cider to clear
4. Rack onto potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulfite (Campden) in the keg to prevent more fermentation
5. Force carbonate in keg at low temp
6. Bottle and cap from keg using beer gun

I think that's it. Will the campden leave any solids in the bottom of the keg? Should / Could I sulphite it in a fermenter and then rack to the keg leaving this behind?

 

[Happyhammer]

I just read this thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/cold-crashing-cider.46017/
which suggests that the sulphite step (4) isn't necessary?

 

[Happyhammer]

Found a great article here which suggests doing both, it also credits @CvilleKevin who wrote the post above.

Any thoughts / advice on temperature of cold crash and also carbonation temperature?

 

[Maylar]

Even with cold crashing, there will always be some small amount of yeast in solution. Unless you can force filter through 1 micron or smaller. The sorbate/sulfite is necessary too be sure that the residual sugar doesn't continue to ferment in your bottles.

Crushed Campden is notoriously difficult to dissolve. I like to add it and the sorbate to a clean Pyrex glass measuring cup with a couple cups of cider and stir until I can see that it's dissolved before adding it to the keg.

Cold crash at 35 if you can. I've seen fermentations continue at 40, so colder is better. I keg at 12-13 psi at 38-40°F which gives you 2.5-ish volumes of CO2.

 

[Happyhammer]

Thanks again.

Here is where I'm up to, I'm doing things on the run at the moment as I'm not as prepared as I'd like to be but I have over 120 litres (32 Gallons) of cider all in secondary, so Im trying to catchup and make it as good as it can be.

I can only get down to 4C (39.2F) in the fermenters. I dropped some of the Lees out of the bottom of the tanks and dropped the temperature over a couple of days from 17C (62F) down to 12C (53.6F) then down to 5C (41F) {still bubbling slowly} and now down to 4C (39.2F). I'm going to test them for clarity today and if clear I'll rack them onto the campden tablets and sorbate in the kegs and put the kegs in the fridge ready for carbing.

Will I get any sediment from the sorbate or camden if I dissolve them properly? If so should I add an interim racking for 24 hours for them to take affect and then rack to the keg? Also how long do you run the CO2 at 12-13psi to get 2.5ish volumes CO2?

I'm also making some modifications to the fridge but I'll put that in a separate thread.

 

[Maylar]

You're trying to halt fermentation with cold crashing, and I've never done that. I don't know how cold you have to get it, and I believe that's yeast dependent. I always let my secondary go dry and stop on its own, then stabilize and sweeten at kegging time.

If you're dealing with big batches, it's easier to use potassium metabisulfite than Campden. 1/4 TSP per 5-6 gallons is the dose. Mix it well and you won't have any sediment.

Kegging questions should be asked in the keg sub forum. Cider is exactly like beer in that regard.

 

[Happyhammer]

Thanks again Dave.

 

[ten80]

I just remembered that it is good practice to add sulfites along with potassium sorbates if you are not heat pasturizing becase malolactic bacterial can metabolize soribic acid into hexadienol (aka geraniol) which tastes like geraniums. MLF bacteria are particularly sensitive to sulfites, whereas wine yeasts are quite resistant to low dosing.

 

[Kees]

OK, I have never tried this but this is a way you could do this. You can plot the duration of fermentation vs. the SG. After a few readings you can guestimate how much time a 0.06 drop in SG will take. A 0.06 drop in SG will cause an amount of CO2 that good quality bottles can handle.
When your fermenting cider has almost reached the flavour you are looking for you can bottle the cider and give it the time for a 0.06 drop in SG. When you have reached that point you can pasturize your bottles.
Jolicoeur in his book on cider making explains the plotting of fermentation time vs SG. In one of the stickies you can read how to pasturize bottles with cider. For this method I would use champagne bottles.