Candi syrup experiment, trying to clone D2

[jpoder]

It cost more to make in time and materials then it does to just buy it.

Meh...the same could be said for the beer one makes using the D2 sugar!

That being said I am one of the folks buying a quart from you on this group buy. (I'm setting up to have the mother load of doubles and quads ready for next winter!)

On a similar, but different note, someone in the "Pious" thread suggests that the dark candi syrup in Belgium is different/better than the Dark Candi stuff we get here. Anyone know if this is true or has tried any of the syrups from the vendors linked in that post?

 

[rjwhite41]

but different note, someone in the "Pious" thread suggests that the dark candi syrup in Belgium is different/better than the Dark Candi stuff we get here. Anyone know if this is true or has tried any of the syrups from the vendors linked in that post?

I don't know if it is true but those vendors are from Belgium. I'm not going to pay to have it shipped from Belgium and I doubt anyone else is. Supposedly, the candi syrup that we covet for beer is sold on store shelves in every grocer in Belgium. They eat it like a spread. There is a place in Portland that has it in stock for $9 a jug for anyone who is interested.

I apologize for helping this thread get off track. Please let us know how your continued experiments turn out.

 

[Douglefish]

What is the store name in Portland?

 

[rjwhite41]

What is the store name in Portland?

http://www.fhsteinbart.com

I have never ordered from them but I did send an email and they told me they had it in stock a couple of days ago.

 

[KYB]

I've only briefly looked into sugars, so correct me if I am wrong...

However, it seems you only have tried Dextrose/Corn Sugar/Glucose. Why don't you try Sucrose (which is glucose and fructose bonded)? From what I've been reading, even though cane sugar and beet sugar are just sucrose, they still behave differently when cooked. Plus, D2 is made from beet sugar. I'm going to try my hand at some experiments and see what I come up with. I want to make my own for my BDSA I just decided I want to brew very soon.

Edit: Just really read through Rex's thread. Nevermind.

 

[Nateo]

After a fast ferment, I racked off the yeast and sampled the beers. It fermented with any temp control, and it had a large amount of simple sugar, so it fermented pretty dry.

Impressions: Color and aroma were the same, as far as I could tell. One had a little bit thicker, slicker mouthfeel than the other, but the other had a bit better/more complex flavor. I'm still not sure which one was which. I really thought it'd be obvious in the finished beer, but it isn't. They're close enough that if they weren't back-to-back I doubt I could tell the difference, though I don't have a formally trained palate.

So, initial impression is encouraging. It'd take a larger scale comparison to draw a definite conclusion, but at this point, I'll say that I've been able to make a good, though not "exact," substitute for D2 syrup.

Let the nay-saying commence!

 

[GuldTuborg]

It would be tough for me to dispute your claim if I had, say, a couple of sample bottles. Hint, hint.

Good work, by the way!

 

[Crustovsky]

Great thread, and I appreciate all the work that has gone into this. Two questions come to my mind though (my apologies if I missed them being asked and answered earlier):

First, is there a chance that the differences in the water in Denver and whatever water they use to make d2 syrup are responsible for certain aspects of the experimental syrups? Would it maybe be wise to make up multiple versions of the same experimental syrup using different water sources (tap, distilled, filtered, etc) and see if anything notable changes between them?

Two, would it perhaps be easiest to split any given batch up part way through the cooking process to preserve certain aspects of the syrup while pushing the rest towards more cooked results? So perhaps at a certain point where desirable fruity aspects arise split however much of the batch off to cool down while continuing to cook the remaining syrup until the desired chocolatey notes are achieved, then mixing both parts back together?

Again, great thread. This has inspired me to start experimenting with making syrups myself.

 

[tchuklobrau]

Ok here it stupid ? of the week. How is everyone reaching these temps? i can only get my stove to heat water to 218. what kind of flame source do i need?

 

[rjwhite41]

Your stove will be fine it puts off much more heat than 200F. Water has a boiling point of 212 (which means I would recalibrate your thermometer because it doesn't get to 218) other solutions have various boiling points. You will need a candy thermometer for this though because your standard thermometer won't read high enough.

 

[Nateo]

tchuklobrau - As the percentage of sugar increases, the boiling temperature increases, so as the water evaporates, the boiling point will rise.

Crustovsky - I think with the amount of additives, between the DAP and the KHCO3, I think the water wouldn't make a big difference. FWIW, Denver water has a bicarbonate level of around 80, and is pretty soft. I think if you have really hard water, it might make sense to use distilled or RO water.

I've thought about just making several syrups and blending them together to get certain flavors. The batch sizes I've been experimenting are pretty small, so it'd be easy to scale them up or down. One that comes to mind is doing a mix of like 2:1 the H syrup, and one of the syrups with more vanilla flavors.

 

[Nateo]

I measured the gravities of the finished beers, and one was 1.007, and one was 1.011. The one with the higher gravity was actually the one that tasted more complex, and the lower gravity was the one that was slicker/thicker, which seems weird to me. I would guess my syrup was less fermentable than D2, in which case it would be the more complex, thinner one.

 

[Nateo]

Have a full size batch in the fermenter right now made with Syrup H. I'll let you all know how it turns out.

 

[Crustovsky]

Well there be a control with D2 as well, or are you just going with Syrup H? Also, will this be brewed traditionally with just a whole lot of base malt and the syrup, or does it include specialty malts as well? Very interested to hear about the results, keep us updated.

 

[Nateo]

I have a batch I brewed a few months ago with pale and D2, but also some turbinado. The new batch will be just pale and H. It won't exactly be apples to apples, but if I feel it's not a good comparison, I'll brew an identical batch with the D2 I have left to compare them.

 

[rjwhite41]

I appreciate all your efforts Nateo but I think you need to be more exact in order to get any usable information of this. On your last experiment you don't even know which beer had which sugar in it and you are using your assumptions to decide which is which. In this experiment you have the added turbinado in one which means it won't be a useful comparison either. Apples to apples, that's how you compare products. Not trying to be an a-hole but I just don't see how unstructured experiments are doing us any good.

 

[Nateo]

I appreciate all your efforts Nateo but I think you need to be more exact in order to get any usable information of this. On your last experiment you don't even know which beer had which sugar in it and you are using your assumptions to decide which is which. In this experiment you have the added turbinado in one which means it won't be a useful comparison either. Apples to apples, that's how you compare products. Not trying to be an a-hole but I just don't see how unstructured experiments are doing us any good.

Well, that's why I listed all my ingredients/process for the different syrups, so you can make them yourself, and decide for yourself. I never take anyone's word for anything, and I don't recommend you do, either.

 

[rjwhite41]

Well, that's why I listed all my ingredients/process for the different syrups, so you can make them yourself, and decide for yourself. I never take anyone's word for anything, and I don't recommend you do, either.

Well I guess you took that a little bit personal. The reason I am following is to see if you have success and then I will duplicate your experiments to see if I like the results. If you don't take a more scientific approach to this then I'm afraid the only useful info you have to contribute on the matter was on page 1. However, if you start eliminating all the variables then your info could be of use to all of us who are interested in this subject. You do as you want and I will follow this thread either way to see if I can gain any insight from it but I don't see how it helps anyone, including yourself, if you can't do something as simple as remembering which syrup you use in which beer. That's just as bad as not trying to compare in first place and claiming that your syrup is better and more complex then d2 even if you've never used it. Just sayin...

 

[Nateo]

I didn't really take it personally, but to address a couple points you've raised:

When my current batch top-crops I'll skim some yeast off and make a batch of the same beer with D2 instead. It won't be the same size batch, it won't be brewed on the same day as the first batch, with the same wort, or with the same ambient temperature, or pressure, or yeast pitching rate, or lunar cycle, or zodiac sign. I'm sure there are a hundred other variables that won't be the same, either.

Since I don't have a lab to work in, I can't really control all the variables. Where do you want to draw the line? How many variables are necessary/practical/preferable to control?

I'm not pretending I'll win "scientist of the year" with my experiments, but I do think it's informative if, in my first test batch, one was not obviously 'better' than the other. If I can't tell the difference between them, that tells me they're "close enough" for me.

Are they close enough for you? I can't answer that, and I don't particularly care. Only you can answer that. If you want to buy D2, you should buy D2. If you want to make your own, you should make your own.

Orangehero and ODaniel have suggested that pH may have an effect on the flavor compounds created. So I'd say if you want to strike out on your own, I'd experiment with adding varied amounts of KHCO3 before the DAP to see what happens. I had some paid days off a few weeks ago when I did most of my experiments, and I don't know when I'll have time to try some more. But that's where I'd go next.

 

[camiller]

So I decided to add some baking soda to my syrup.

Added 1/8 tsp. baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to 1/4 cup of a mix of all the previous syrups I have made. It turned into about 3/4 cup of delicious caramel mousse. ...

Had you also been cooking raw peanuts in your syrup you would have found yourself getting close to peanut brittle. Also (at least with peanut brittle) the longer you stir after adding the baking soda the darker it gets, and really quickly also.

 

[rjwhite41]

Since I don't have a lab to work in, I can't really control all the variables. Where do you want to draw the line? How many variables are necessary/practical/preferable to control?

I would start by using the same recipe fermented in as similar a way as possible (I would do a split batch in order to do this) and I would label them so I know which is which. I would then try them side by side to compare them. In short, I would control all variables the best I could.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Nateo, do you know why your syrups started smoking @ ~320* F? I don't know much about this or candy making but I thought sugar syrup could be heated hotter than that without smoking/burning. IIRC, the one time I made syrup (just heating sucrose and water, no DAP/acid) I got up to 360* F and it wasn't smoking. Sorry if already covered itt.

 

[Nateo]

Nateo, do you know why your syrups started smoking @ ~320* F? I don't know much about this or candy making but I thought sugar syrup could be heated hotter than that without smoking/burning. IIRC, the one time I made syrup (just heating sucrose and water, no DAP/acid) I got up to 360* F and it wasn't smoking. Sorry if already covered itt.

I think someone in this thread, or the Snickasaurus original thread mentioned that you can heat sugar really hot without much, if any, color change. You can also get sugar really, really hot without burning it. So table sugar can go up to 400*, so I've read, before it burns.

If I had to guess why it smokes so low, I'd say that the Maillard reactions turn sugar into not-sugar, and not-sugar burns at a lower temperature than sugar. So it's not the sugar burning, it's the other compounds.

 

[orangehero]

It appears higher pH increases the rate of the maillard reaction.

 

[Nateo]

It appears higher pH increases the rate of the maillard reaction.

Does it increase the rate of the reaction, or change the ratio of byproducts? ODaniel's link made it look like it just changed the ratio of byproducts, but maybe I missed something.

 

[orangehero]

Example.

 

[Nateo]

Interesting. Don't remember if I've posted it before, but pH on my first round was at or below 4, my strips don't go lower than that. The subsequent, adjusted batches were between 5-5.5. One of those pretzels went up to 14, which seems super high to me.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Has anyone done any further testing on fermentability. I have had Snick's thread bookmarked for months anticipating making chemnitz's Vespers Abbey Dubbel ...then I decided to start readin through that thread Doh!!!

Then I started reading through this thread...

Now I am confused...

If I processed all this info correctly through the wetware, the process of making this syrup makes it less fermentable but creates desireable (hopefully ) flavors and colors.

So some questions arise, such as:
1) How much fermentable sugar is left? D2 says it is highly fermentable which is a desirable feature in a Belgian brew as the sugar helps to boost alcohol while creating a dry finish.
2) Should I use enough of this to get the flavor contribution I want and then just add sugar to boost ABV and dry it out?
3) Are the lighter versions of this syrup more fermentable than the dark ones (less Maillard reactions)? If so, has anyone tried blending the dark and light to not only achieve the desired flavor profile but also the desired fermentability?

Thank you to all who have contributed to this process of learning and experimentation. I will certainly add anything I can, thogh many of you seem far more learned in the candy making arts and the science behind it than I.

Happy Brewing

 

[Nateo]

Tanstaafb:
1) I haven't tried a forced ferment test on just the syrups, without malt. I brewed a batch with 16% of the grist being my H syrup, and the FG got to 1.016. I did a batch with 8% D2 and 14% turbinado, and that got down to 1.010.
2) Most Belgian brewers use dark syrup and granulated sugar, either dextrose or sucrose, or some sort of starch adjunct to boost the fermentability. So the syrup is for flavor, mostly, and they use simple sugars to get the attenuation they want.
3) I assume the lighter versions are more fermentable, but I haven't tested that, nor have I tried blending the syrups. There is still a lot of room for experimentation. I've been really busy at work recently, but once I get some more time off I'll keep plugging away the syrups.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Thanks for the quick reply Nateo. I am planning on brewing that Dubbel tomorrow but wanted to be sure I did not end up with residual unfermentables when I thought I was boosting them! I will probably add half a pound of sugar to compensate for the portion of the syrup that was converted to non-fermentables.

 

[Nateo]

After a few more weeks in primary, my Syrup H quad got down to 1.012, so it's a bit more fermentable than I thought it'd be. I tried a bottle of it recently, and the H syrup does make a good beer that compares well to my quads made with D2, and in my own biased opinion, makes a beer that tastes better than my quads with D2.

I'm winding my brewing down because I plan on moving in the next month or so, but I feel I've come to a good stopping point. I've found a combination of syrups that yields a syrup almost identical to D2. Updated the opening post to show my work.

Thanks again to Jpoder who sent me some D2 as a control. Without him I wouldn't have gotten this far. Also thanks to Orangehero who gave me the idea to raise the pH before the DAP does it's thing. Thanks to everyone else who encouraged, and special thanks to the people who said I couldn't possibly succeed, it was strong motivation to continue.

If anyone tries brewing with any of the syrups I've made here, let me know. Once I get moved and setup I'll brew D2/Syrup Z comparison batch, but that may be sometime in the late summer/early fall. If anyone else feels like doing so before me, please let us know how it turns out.

 

[Nateo]

Picture of my syrup, right, compared to D2, left. Syrups were diluted equivalent of 1lb/gallon. D2 is 160 SRM, I'm estimating about 40 SRM for my syrup, because my syrup at the equivalent of 4lbs/gallon was about as dark as D2. So 160SRM/4 = 40. Is that reasonable logic? I'm not sure how calculate color contributions of syrups.

 

[Crustovsky]

I'm curious, what pH do your syrups (er, pre-cooked syrups) hit after you add the KHCO3?

 

[Nateo]

Generally in the 5.2-5.6 range, depending on amount of KHCO3.

A few of the batches that were failures used KHCO3 in larger amounts than listed here, but that lead to an unpleasant saltiness and only raised the pH into the 5.8-5.9 range. I guess because the darkening sugar lowered the pH at the same time the higher pH was causing more Maillard reactions.

EDIT: re-read your question, and I didn't actually take any measurements pre-boil, only post-boil.

 

[KingBrianI]

Nateo, where did you get the potassium bicarbonate?

 

[Nateo]

Nateo, where did you get the potassium bicarbonate?

I think I mentioned it before, but the thread got pretty long and it's hard to navigate now. Potassium bicarbonate is a common winemaking chemical. If your LHBS sells winemaking stuff too, they probably have it.

 

[KingBrianI]

I think I mentioned it before, but the thread got pretty long and it's hard to navigate now. Potassium bicarbonate is a common winemaking chemical. If your LHBS sells winemaking stuff too, they probably have it.

Cool, thanks. I tried looking for it in the thread but didn't have any luck. All I could find online was potassium bicarbonate for gardening, which I didn't want to use in something I'd be consuming.

 

[Nateo]

A couple quick notes after a bunch more trials:

When using sucrose, you really should invert it first. I was a disbeliever in that for a long time, but sucrose isn't a reducing sugar, while fructose/glucose are. So while the sucrose will invert from heat and acidity as the syrup darkens, you'll get better results more quickly if the sugar is pre-inverted. The important thing is to neutralize the acidity required to invert before you caramelize the rest of the syrup. Different bicarbonates, like potassium bicarbonate, are used for that.

I came across an article from the 1920's that talks about commercial invert sugar production. The author of that article recommended using citric or tartaric acid over inorganic acids like phosphoric because the flavor isn't as good. Here's his recipe:

On a 1000-pound producing basis, 750 pounds of sucrose,
250 pounds of water (approximately 30 gallons), and 10 ounces
of tartaric or 13 ounces of citric acid are used. The sucrose is
dissolved in the water by stirring while the heat is being raised
to the boiling point. The acid, dissolved in a small quantity
of water, is added to the sugar and water before the heat is applied
and the whole mixture is heated until it boils gently and is held
at incipient boiling for 30 minutes.

The DAP is a good ingredient to use because phosphates increase the rate of Maillard reactions. Ammonia and phosphate compounds are routinely used in commercial caramel production.

The darker the syrup gets, the less useful the thermometer is, and the more you have to go by feel and experience. The Maillard products burn more easily, but more Maillard products are formed at lower water activity levels. Meaning, the drier the product, the more Maillard products, for better and worse. Some Maillard products are good, some are bad. Balancing them is the hardest part of making the really dark syrups.

The weather can also mess up your syrup, low pressure especially. If the weather is bad or there's weather moving in, it's not a great day to make syrup.

 

[Nateo]

After reading a lot of about how to make caramel, and about how labeling laws work, there's no rule requiring manufacturers to disclose ingredients used as process aids. Processing aids are: "Substances that are added to a food for their technical or functional effect in the processing but are present in the finished food at insignificant levels and do not have any technical or functional effect in that food."

This is why the syrup companies can list their ingredients as "Pure beet sugar" or whatever. They're not required to disclose which acids and bases they use, and since you can't patent a recipe, the only way to keep someone from stealing it is to keep it a secret. I think this is why there is so much misinformation about syrup making, and why the companies in question so adamantly insist there is nothing but sugar in their syrups.

 

[DeNomad]

I appreciate the work you have put into this thread Nateo. The recipes were very well documented! I made recipe H and compensated for pressure change (altitude) and it tastes wonderful. I did not have any KHC03 on hand (or did not think of my wine supplies when I read it) so I didn't use any in my recipe, only the DAP. Should I be worried about pH? My beer recipe calls for a 10% addition of Candi sugar to the batch.