Can they call this 'beer'?

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James at basic brewing dispelled that myth that freeze distillation of beer is illegal at least two years ago by actually calling the TTB and clearing it up. It's prefectly legal to do it. There's several threads on here with that information.

Just like there are a few threads discussing tactical nuclear penguin.
 
Home distillation of alcohol (hot or cold) is prohibited for two reasons: taxes and methanol poisoning. Germans have been doing this forever with Eisbier. I would imagne with Eisbier it's more difficult to get rid of the methanol, but I have no doubts that it can be done.
 
Beernik said:
Home distillation of alcohol (hot or cold) is prohibited for two reasons: taxes and methanol poisoning. Germans have been doing this forever with Eisbier. I would imagne with Eisbier it's more difficult to get rid of the methanol, but I have no doubts that it can be done.
Click to expand...

Again, freeze distillation of beer is NOT illegal in the US. Everyone assumed it was, when in reality it wasn't. Because it is NOT distillation, in reality it is concentration.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/freeze-distillation-104882/

The Basic Brewing folks even demoed it here making a barleywine.

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=february-20-2009-barleywine-ice-beer
 
Video brings up an interesting thing (though I haven't finished it yet...) how do you find out the ABV of your eisbeir? I forget if there is a method to use a refractometer and hydrometer in conjunction to do so.
 
Ugh. Yet another freeze distillation thread were the ill-informed chime in with such "authority".

It's simple common sense people. There are many craft breweries right here in the U.S. producing Eisbocks. Do you REALLY think they all have distillers permits?

And methanol poisoning from freezing beer? COME ON. PLEASE tell me you're kidding...
 
Beernik said:
Home distillation of alcohol (hot or cold) is prohibited for two reasons: taxes and methanol poisoning. Germans have been doing this forever with Eisbier. I would imagne with Eisbier it's more difficult to get rid of the methanol, but I have no doubts that it can be done.
Click to expand...

How did the methanol get in there in the first place?
 
conpewter said:
Video brings up an interesting thing (though I haven't finished it yet...) how do you find out the ABV of your eisbeir? I forget if there is a method to use a refractometer and hydrometer in conjunction to do so.
Click to expand...

Good point. Wouldn't it still be og - (post freeze) fg x 131?

And since there's no carb, maybe it would be ok to use the refractometer on it?

I don't really have an answer just a couple ideas to throw out there.

EDIT

'Oly Carp...I just googled looking for an answer, and evidently it is really complicated to calculate. Michael Tonsmier the made fermentalist went through all this to figure it out.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/07/testing-alcohol-content-of-ice.html
 
conpewter said:
how do you find out the ABV of your eisbeir? I forget if there is a method to use a refractometer and hydrometer in conjunction to do so.
Click to expand...

This article explains the math. Easy way is to go to the refractometer tab in Beersmith and it will do it for you. Yes, you need a hydrometer and a refractometer. Get rid of the bubbles and it will work on commercial beers, too.
 
passedpawn said:
This article explains the math. Easy way is to go to the refractometer tab in Beersmith and it will do it for you. Yes, you need a hydrometer and a refractometer. Get rid of the bubbles and it will work on commercial beers, too.
Click to expand...

Ok cool, I do have beersmith, I just have to set that up. Need to calibrate the refractometer to the hydromter and all that.
 
My *ahem* 45th birthday is this August. I am planning to brew a Barleywine on or around that day that I am going to lay up for 5 years, and share on my 50th. Maybe even give them as gifts to friends.

I'm considering pulling off at least a gallon, maybe 2 of that batch and freeze concentrating that as well. Maybe that will be the "private stock."

I'm also planning to do a mead to lay up as well.
 
Beernik said:
You get trace methanol in any fermentation just like you get trace fusels (higher) alcohols.

Its only when you concentrate them during distillation that they become problematic.
Click to expand...

Absolute bunk, disproved by science long ago. The methanol / booze link goes back to the moonshiner days when unscrupulous distillers bumped their ABV with wood alcohol. It didn't come from the fermentation.
 
jkarp said:
Absolute bunk, disproved by science long ago. The methanol / booze link goes back to the moonshiner days when unscrupulous distillers bumped their ABV with wood alcohol. It didn't come from the fermentation.
Click to expand...

+1,000000000

I'll quote from someone who I usually disagree with, but here he is right.

oldschool said:
There is very little methanol in beer, if any at all. There is only methanol in distilled grains because of crude mashing techniques and certain yeasts strains used. Keep in mind our beer yeast can not ferment cellulose, nor is there enzymes present(cellulase) to break it down to fermentables. If there were cellulase present in our grains the plant would decompose it's husks naturally.
Click to expand...

In fact if you google "amount of methanol in beer" you get no real information, just more discussions like this about freeze distillation, with the same idiotic arguments.

I couldn't find any concrete numbers.....

If there is any methanol present in beer it is of such a trace amount that even if you managed to concentrate it through freeze concentration, that it still would be too negligible to worry about.

So let's not. :D
 
Of course, that's why every distillation page I read talks about removing the fore shots, which are typically composed of: acetone, methanol, various esters and aldehydes, and other volatiles.

Even if not in concentrations high enough to be toxic, it doesn't mean I want the off flavors in my liquor.

So how do they toss the fore shots in freezing distillation?
 
Of course, that's why every distillation page I read talks about removing the fore shots, which are typically composed of: acetone, methanol, various esters and aldehydes, and other volatiles.

Even if not in concentrations high enough to be toxic, it doesn't mean I want the off flavors in my liquor.

So how do they toss the fore shots in freezing distillation?
 
Revvy said:
My *ahem* 45th birthday is this August. I am planning to brew a Barleywine on or around that day that I am going to lay up for 5 years, and share on my 50th. Maybe even give them as gifts to friends.

I'm considering pulling off at least a gallon, maybe 2 of that batch and freeze concentrating that as well. Maybe that will be the "private stock."

I'm also planning to do a mead to lay up as well.
Click to expand...

revvy, it's YOUR birthday, you don't need to give out gifts. ;)
 
Beernik said:
Of course, that's why every distillation page I read talks about removing the fore shots, which are typically composed of: acetone, methanol, various esters and aldehydes, and other volatiles.

Even if not in concentrations high enough to be toxic, it doesn't mean I want the off flavors in my liquor.

So how do they toss the fore shots in freezing distillation?
Click to expand...

Freeze Distillation is a misnomer. It is freeze CONCENTRATION, you are not distilling anything using this procedure. Freeze concentration simply reduces the water content, which intensifies ALL flavor components. Distillation has a completely different goal.

Eiswein, Eisbock, a freeze concentrated barleywine, the goal is to intensify flavors (and alcohol). As you just stated, distillation would remove the aromatics that give the beverage it's characters.

Freeze concentration isn't for cleaning up that pile of rotted potato/green pea/corn slop you tossed bread yeast on top in the bathtub.
 
Revvy said:
Good point. Wouldn't it still be og - (post freeze) fg x 131?

And since there's no carb, maybe it would be ok to use the refractometer on it?

I don't really have an answer just a couple ideas to throw out there.

EDIT

'Oly Carp...I just googled looking for an answer, and evidently it is really complicated to calculate. Michael Tonsmier the made fermentalist went through all this to figure it out.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/07/testing-alcohol-content-of-ice.html
Click to expand...

maybe I'm totally over simplifying this but couldn't you figure it out by converting your original ABV to ABW and weighing how much water you took away create a new ABW and go back to ABV from that?

I didn't read the link but I'm just kinda thinking out loud about a way to do it.
 
Revvy said:
My *ahem* 45th birthday is this August.
Click to expand...

My 45th is also in August (15).

Revvy said:
I'm considering pulling off at least a gallon, maybe 2 of [the barleywine] and freeze concentrating that as well.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't recommend that. You want to do this to a particularly flavorless beer. I.e., a mild. The flavors are intensified, which a barleywine definatly does not need.

I have concentrated a beer in this way and did not like it. Good luck to you.
 
Anyone worried about the methanol level in either beer, or freeze concentrated beer should stop drinking orange juice or tomato juice or anything with aspartame.

In the low ppm levels involved, it is broken down into formaldehyde then into formic acid. This is a normal enzymatic action of our metabolism.

That is, if you are really worried about methanol.
 
Beernik said:
Of course, that's why every distillation page I read talks about removing the fore shots, which are typically composed of: acetone, methanol, various esters and aldehydes, and other volatiles.
Click to expand...

According to this page, there is no methanol in distillate.

Fusels would be concentrated by fractional freezing, but they're not hazardous and are considered flaws in most beer anyway.
 
Jeez-louise,

How many of you guys are chemists or PHD's?

Come on lets see your credentials....:D

Just thinking here. If methanol is bad and its in my beer. If I have a keg of mild. I drink the whole thing, or I freeze the whole thing and drink whatever I can siphon off while frozen. How is the quantity of methanol worse off in either case? Is it concentration per given time?

Does it even exist? If so, why?
 
Schlenkerla said:
Jeez-louise,

How many of you guys are chemists or PHD's?

Come on lets see your credentials....:D

Just thinking here. If methanol is bad and its in my beer. If I have a keg of mild. I drink the whole thing, or I freeze the whole thing and drink whatever I can siphon off while frozen. How is the quantity of methanol worse off in either case? Is it concentration per given time?

Does it even exist? If so, why?
Click to expand...

if you could drink 5 gallons of beer in one sitting without keeling over from alcohol poisoning i would be very impressed.
 
TipsyDragon said:
if you could drink 5 gallons of beer in one sitting without keeling over from alcohol poisoning i would be very impressed.
Click to expand...

So would I!!!

I was alluding to a concentration of methanol over a drinking session. How much is really in a keg? How much can you extract when frozen?

I think its worse than splitting hairs.
 
Schlenkerla said:
Jeez-louise,

How many of you guys are chemists or PHD's?

Come on lets see your credentials....:D

Just thinking here. If methanol is bad and its in my beer. If I have a keg of mild. I drink the whole thing, or I freeze the whole thing and drink whatever I can siphon off while frozen. How is the quantity of methanol worse off in either case? Is it concentration per given time?

Does it even exist? If so, why?
Click to expand...

I don't see that this is a situation that one needs to be a degreed chemist (which I am not) to sort out. The information is out there, and has been studied by those who are.

For instance, that link shows a higher alcohol ppm level of 82 in a German dark export. If this was freeze concentrated to a 50% reduction in volume, the highest that the higher alcohol level would be is 164ppm. This is still lower than any of the low end ppm levels for brandies from the same link, except the fortified wine for brandy production.

Methanol is converted to formaldehyde, which is the converted to formic acid. The formic acid is the major concern, as it does accumulate in the body, and leads to metabolic acidosis if unchecked. Direct correlation between formic acid concentration and mortality exists, but exact rates of morbidity and mortality from ingestion are not known.

http://www.antizol.com/mpoisono.htm
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-227X/10/3

There are MSDS sheets available for methanol as well, that show time weighted average and lethal death 50 info, but it mostly seems to be for inhalation and absorption.

As an aside, the link I posted regarding the aroma of beer, wine and distilled alcoholic beverages has been a good read so far. I got distracted in my response here reading it.
 
Aging, phenolics, polyphenols... in the barrel over time, fusels congregate.

Secondly, the moonshiners in the Foxfire books always filter the drink through ash/coals, as the final step in distillation, before bottling, it's a great molecular sieve and adds flavor. The longer chains of polyphenols and other bad things don't get through the coals. Use hickory or oak, the old timers used chestnut before the blight. Modern people in other industries use zeolite. Google it.
 
Beernik said:
Of course, that's why every distillation page I read talks about removing the fore shots, which are typically composed of: acetone, methanol, various esters and aldehydes, and other volatiles.

Even if not in concentrations high enough to be toxic, it doesn't mean I want the off flavors in my liquor.

So how do they toss the fore shots in freezing distillation?
Click to expand...

Dude, it's just freezing the beer and removing the ice since ethanol won't freeze until -114*C, but the water in the beer will. Removing water (dilution) concentrates the abv.

Distilling is heating of alcohol. Alcohols have a lower boiling point than water, so they evaporate first, and then the vapors are caught and cooled/condensed into liquid again. Methanol has a lower boiling point than Ethanol, thus the pouring out of the first runnings which maybe contain any methanol, ~50ml.

Understand now?
 

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