Can fully carbed cider be pasteurized?

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Maylar

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If I carb using a CO2 tank and a "Carbonator" gizzmo then bottle, would it be safe to stove pasteurize in the bottles or would that likely cause them to be bombs? I'm trying to figure out how to get the best of both worlds, controlled carbonation and sweetened naturally too.

TIA
 
I think that you'd be making bombs.

You don't need to pasteurize. You can cold crash to halt yeast activity and then carb and keep everything cold. There are also several chemicals you can add to halt yeast activity.
 
Don't heat carbed bottles. They will explode. Not might explode, they will explode...
 
Don't heat carbed bottles. They will explode. Not might explode, they will explode...


Then why is there a 111 page tutorial stickied at the top of this forum showing us how to heat carbed bottles to halt further fermentation?
 
Then why is there a 111 page tutorial stickied at the top of this forum showing us how to heat carbed bottles to halt further fermentation?

That's up to anybody who wants to give it a shot. Not something I would ever try and not something I could ever in good faith or legality suggest somebody else do...
 
That's up to anybody who wants to give it a shot. Not something I would ever try and not something I could ever in good faith or legality suggest somebody else do...

I've done 48 bottles so far with no issues.
 
I've done about 60 bottles, one exploded as it was cooling, I would sorbate + campden if it's already carbed.
 
I've done about 60 bottles, one exploded as it was cooling, I would sorbate + campden if it's already carbed.

Do those chemicals add any funky flavors? I have a gallon of cider in secondary that's clearing nicely and reads about 0.996 SG. When I bottle it I want to add some frozen concentrate for flavor and sweetness but I don't want it to carb naturally since I'll be force carbonating it. If sorbate or campden taste like acid that would suck.
 
If I carb using a CO2 tank and a "Carbonator" gizzmo then bottle, would it be safe to stove pasteurize in the bottles or would that likely cause them to be bombs? I'm trying to figure out how to get the best of both worlds, controlled carbonation and sweetened naturally too.

TIA

This may be my ignorance - or lack of imagination - but why would anyone need to pasteurize bottles of cider that have been primed for carbonation. There is no more sugar left to ferment if you ferment dry and then prime with a fixed and known quantity of sugar. Of course, if you don't ferment dry and try to use the residual sugar as your priming sugar then you have no really good idea the pressure that you are subjecting the bottles to as the CO2 produced by the yeast increases. That's a bit like blowing the tires on your car each time you want to stop rather than pressing on your brakes. Failure to allow complete fermentation seems to me to be a peculiarly poor way of making cider. There are ways of creating a sweeter cider that allow you far more control of the process.
 
This may be my ignorance - or lack of imagination - but why would anyone need to pasteurize bottles of cider that have been primed for carbonation. There is no more sugar left to ferment if you ferment dry and then prime with a fixed and known quantity of sugar. Of course, if you don't ferment dry and try to use the residual sugar as your priming sugar then you have no really good idea the pressure that you are subjecting the bottles to as the CO2 produced by the yeast increases. That's a bit like blowing the tires on your car each time you want to stop rather than pressing on your brakes. Failure to allow complete fermentation seems to me to be a peculiarly poor way of making cider. There are ways of creating a sweeter cider that allow you far more control of the process.

Thanks. I'm new at this. I was under the impression that even though the sugar in primary has been completely converted, that the yeasts will "wake up" when you add sugar at bottling time. That leads to carbonation, as I understand it, and I don't want that. I want to force carbonate. So, if the secondary ferments totally dry (no more bubbles) can I safely add sugar for taste without adding chemicals or doing pasteurization?

It's a small batch and will be refrigerated and consumed in a short period of time.
 
Do those chemicals add any funky flavors? I have a gallon of cider in secondary that's clearing nicely and reads about 0.996 SG. When I bottle it I want to add some frozen concentrate for flavor and sweetness but I don't want it to carb naturally since I'll be force carbonating it. If sorbate or campden taste like acid that would suck.

It's in most wines, so I don't imagine it tastes like much, campden will kill the yeast and sorbate will inhibit things from reproducing if anything is left alive.

http://www.eckraus.com/wine-making-stop-fermentation/#.
 
This may be my ignorance - or lack of imagination - but why would anyone need to pasteurize bottles of cider that have been primed for carbonation. There is no more sugar left to ferment if you ferment dry and then prime with a fixed and known quantity of sugar. Of course, if you don't ferment dry and try to use the residual sugar as your priming sugar then you have no really good idea the pressure that you are subjecting the bottles to as the CO2 produced by the yeast increases. That's a bit like blowing the tires on your car each time you want to stop rather than pressing on your brakes. Failure to allow complete fermentation seems to me to be a peculiarly poor way of making cider. There are ways of creating a sweeter cider that allow you far more control of the process.
If you want a sweet cider, with carbonation, not using artificial sweeteners and lack the means to force carbonate in a keg, you're kinda stuck going with backsweetened, bottle carbed and pasteurized cider.

Basically, you ferment dry, then add flavors and/or sugars and bottle. Since the flavors (usually fruit juice or apple juice concentrate which will contain sugar) and/or additional sugar of some type that you add will go right on past the amount of priming sugar you'd need, it's easy to get too much carbonation. The trick is to fill a plastic soda bottle with the cider. When the cider has carbed to the point that the bottle is firm like a store bought soda, you open one of the glass bottles. If the level of carbonation is suitable, you pasteurize. If not, you test another bottle every day or so until you get the right level of carbonation, then pasteurize. I reference the 111 page sticky in this forum.


as for the question at hand:
Thanks. I'm new at this. I was under the impression that even though the sugar in primary has been completely converted, that the yeasts will "wake up" when you add sugar at bottling time. That leads to carbonation, as I understand it, and I don't want that. I want to force carbonate. So, if the secondary ferments totally dry (no more bubbles) can I safely add sugar for taste without adding chemicals or doing pasteurization?

It's a small batch and will be refrigerated and consumed in a short period of time.

The yeast, if not killed off or filtered out, will indeed wake up if sugar is present and the temperature is right. Where you are in the process doesn't matter.

Force carbonation is outside my limited knowledge, but if you want it sweet, you'll likely either have to kill the yeast first or use artificial sweeteners. Again, I would not accept my word for it, but that's what I would venture to guess.

As for refrigeration, it's at least possible to sweeten a cider with "sugar" and keep it cold (like under 40 degrees F) and you'll be fine. If the temperature rises, though, the yeast could wake up and begin making CO2 again...
 
So if you're force carbing, why don't you pasteurize, sweeten, then carb? That's what I do
 
Don't heat carbed bottles. They will explode. Not might explode, they will explode...


No they won't. Not "will" in every sense but could I suppose. Maybe one out of a batch or something but there's no definite. As long as they're not over carbonated. I've done it both ways and let bottles carbonate for 5 days...disaster. Bottles that carbonated for 2 were fine to boil.

OP, how many volumes of CO2 did you pump in?
 
So if you're force carbing, why don't you pasteurize, sweeten, then carb? That's what I do

I was told that pasteurizing before bottling would boil off alcohol. Please tell me your procedure.

OP, how many volumes of CO2 did you pump in?

What's a volume of CO2 mean? (Noob question). My intention is to use a Carbonator cap on a plastic soda bottle and infuse CO2 via agitation, per LiquidBread's instructions. This is my first attempt at this method. In fact I'm on my way out now to buy the CO2 tank.

A gallon batch only yields 8-10 12 oz bottles after secondary, so I'm just gonna toss them in the fridge after sweetening and carbing. FG is below 1.000 and there are zero bubbles. My dilemma is whether to use natural sugar or Xylitol.
 
I was told that pasteurizing before bottling would boil off alcohol. Please tell me your procedure.

Temperatures above 120F/50C will kill yeast, but the boiling point of ethanol is 173F/78C. So for small batches I put my cider in a sanitized pot with a lid and put it in the oven at 150F/70C for about half an hour. You could do the same thing on the stovetop, but you'd have to watch it more closely.
 
I was told that pasteurizing before bottling would boil off alcohol. Please tell me your procedure.

Temperatures above 120F/50C will kill yeast, but the boiling point of ethanol is 173F/78C. So for small batches I put my cider in a sanitized pot with a lid and put it in the oven at 150F/70C for about half an hour. You could do the same thing on the stovetop, but you'd have to watch it more closely.

Thanks very much for that. I'm going to have to test my oven and see if it'll go that low.
 
It really is easiest (and safest!) to stabilize with sorbate and campden (neither which kill yeast, but sorbate inhibits yeast reproduction in a clear and finished cider/wine and works better in the presence of sulfites/campden).

Then, sweeten to taste, force carb, and bottle from there.

Sorbate has a slight taste, but in the proper dosage it won't be noticed. It's used all the time in juices and things you buy at the store as a preservative and safe to use.
 
It really is easiest (and safest!) to stabilize with sorbate and campden (neither which kill yeast, but sorbate inhibits yeast reproduction in a clear and finished cider/wine and works better in the presence of sulfites/campden).

Then, sweeten to taste, force carb, and bottle from there.

Sorbate has a slight taste, but in the proper dosage it won't be noticed. It's used all the time in juices and things you buy at the store as a preservative and safe to use.

I've read a lot about that and the consensus is that both sorbate and campden leave undesirable flavors like rotten eggs or burned matches. It's OK if you wait a couple months for the stuff to dissipate but I'm making small batches that will be consumed within a week or 2.
 
I've read a lot about that and the consensus is that both sorbate and campden leave undesirable flavors like rotten eggs or burned matches. It's OK if you wait a couple months for the stuff to dissipate but I'm making small batches that will be consumed within a week or 2.

I don't know that I agree with 'the concensus', as winemakers routinely use both products. Perhaps in an improper dosage, it may do that. But even table salt has a bad taste when overdone. I've only been making wine for 25 years, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. :D

Anyway, bottle bombs are serious so be careful!
 
I don't know that I agree with 'the concensus', as winemakers routinely use both products. Perhaps in an improper dosage, it may do that. But even table salt has a bad taste when overdone. I've only been making wine for 25 years, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. :D

Anyway, bottle bombs are serious so be careful!

Perhaps 'consensus' is a a poor term. What I meant is that there are lots of posts on this and other forums where people mention funky flavors from these chemicals even when used in correct quantities. Apparently some people are more sensitive to them than others.

Your point is taken that wine makers use them all the time, and I'll bow to your experience on this. If you think I can slow down those hungry little Nottingham yeasties with campden and sorbate without tasting it in my cider, I'll go that route.

Thanks.
 
Perhaps 'consensus' is a a poor term. What I meant is that there are lots of posts on this and other forums where people mention funky flavors from these chemicals even when used in correct quantities. Apparently some people are more sensitive to them than others.

[snip]

Count me in that group. I've given up on sulfates for the same reason I don't eat hard boiled eggs. They smell like sulfur.
 
If I carb using a CO2 tank and a "Carbonator" gizzmo then bottle, would it be safe to stove pasteurize in the bottles or would that likely cause them to be bombs? I'm trying to figure out how to get the best of both worlds, controlled carbonation and sweetened naturally too.

TIA

I usually keg my cider and don't sweeten until it's going into the kegerator. But it's nice to be able to bring bottles to BYOB places (wife doesn't drink beer). I force carb and use a Blichman Gun to bottle, cap and pasteurize on the stove. But I know it's dangerous and wear eye protection and cover the pot with a heavy towel while the bottles are heating. I haven't had a bottle explode yet, but it's probably a matter of time.

One of these days I'll do the pasteurization in the keg and they force carb and bottle.
 
Hey Bender, If whole eggs are not over boiled, the yolks don't turn green and smell like sulfur. YMMV
I pasteurized a batch of cider in my dishwasher. One bottle blew in the dishwasher, and none have blown since. It has been over a year.
 
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