Calcium Content In Lagers

[wobdee]

I'm a little confused while researching water profiles for Munich Helles. Many say forgo the gypsum and just go with a little calcium chloride to get your calcium up to 50. (This is basically with RO water) then I read others stating to throw in a little bit of gypsum to dry it out a bit.

What about Chloride levels? What is too high? If I add calcium chloride to my water to get up in the 50 Ca range my chloride jumps up around 80.

Isn't Calcium all about yeast health and floc where Chloride is about maltiness? Seems most push a certain Ca level and don't talk about Cl. What are good ppm levels for a Helles? Thanks

 

[ajdelange]

No doubt calcium does nice things (like precipitate oxalate as discussed in another current thread) but the idea that it needs to be above 50 has more or less faded away as home brewers reach higher levels of sophistication with respect to this subject. Chloride is a stylistic ion. It can be as low as say 7 mg/L or as high as let's say 200 and should be set to your taste. Some very fine beers are made with low calcium and low chloride. I personally (and I emphasize 'personally' here) find that a higher level of chloride brings out more of what makes those beers good. You may not find that to be the case or, conversely, you may find that you like even more chloride than I do. As for 'drying' the beer up with gypsum, that is also a matter of personal taste. It wouldn't be for me but you might like it. How to find out? Brew or obtain a fairly neutral beer and add drops of calcium chloride and/or gypsum solution to it to get and idea of what these ions do to the flavors.

 

[wobdee]

Thanks AJ. All I brew are malty lagers, Helles, Dunkel, Ofest and Reds so I want the malt to shine. Also starting to look into some Czech lagers.

I like that idea of adding some salts to your glass, I'll have to try that.

So if you don't mind, what levels of Ca, So and Cl do you like in your Helles? My last one which I haven't tapped yet was somewhere around 50, 30, 80. I'll be brewing another soon, maybe I'll try cutting that in half and see what happens?

 

[ajdelange]

Apparently I use 14 g CaCl2 in 55 gal of water which would work out to 42.6 mg Cl- per liter if the stuff I use is really the anhydride which, as it probably isn't means that the actual chloride level is 80 - 90% of that. This is added to RO water.

 

[wobdee]

No gypsum at all? I punched that into Brewers Friend water calculator and it gave me 18.3 mg/l of Ca and 32.4 mg/l of Cl.

 

[mabrungard]

In the case of malty beers, chloride is a requirement. The only reason to include sulfate is to help dry the beer finish and that might take some trial and error. In a malty lager, I would keep sulfate well under 40 ppm. As an example, Munich water has a natural concentration of around 20 ppm sulfate and they make fine malty lagers there. So somewhere in the 20 to 40 ppm range is workable. Keeping your chloride level in that same range is also wise for a malty lager since you want the beer to do the talking, not the water.

Low Ca in the overall wort seems to be more acceptable in lager brewing. To give your mash the greatest potential to precipitate oxalate, I recommend adding all your calcium salts directly to the mash and sparging with low TDS water such as RO or distilled. This technique boosts the Ca content in the mash so that it can precipitate oxalate and the sparging dilution brings the ion levels back down.

 

[wobdee]

Thanks guys, I'll play around with my recipe and bring my salt levels down some.

 

[ajdelange]

No gypsum at all? I punched that into Brewers Friend water calculator and it gave me 18.3 mg/l of Ca and 32.4 mg/l of Cl.

Must assume you are using the dihydrate which everyone (including me) thought was what the LHBS sells. Any way, no - no gypsum at all. I really don't like what sulfate does to noble hops. And dry? My beer isn't Rheingold the dry beer (you'd have to be as old as I am and from the NYC area to get that). Not much point in shooting for rich maltiness and then drying it up with sulfate.

As I said in the earlier post some very fine beers are made with very low chloride and very low calcium. I just like the extra richness that comes from a higher chloride level.

 

[dfhar]

For beers like Helles, count me in as one who uses distilled water + enough calcium chloride to hit 50ppm of calcium.

 

[wobdee]

Must assume you are using the dihydrate which everyone (including me) thought was what the LHBS sells. Any way, no - no gypsum at all. I really don't like what sulfate does to noble hops. And dry? My beer isn't Rheingold the dry beer (you'd have to be as old as I am and from the NYC area to get that). Not much point in shooting for rich maltiness and then drying it up with sulfate.

As I said in the earlier post some very fine beers are made with very low chloride and very low calcium. I just like the extra richness that comes from a higher chloride level.

Yes, that is what I'm using. Is there something I should know?

 

[ajdelange]

Yes. You should look at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=501377

 

[wobdee]

Yes. You should look at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=501377

Thanks, this water stuff is getting more complicated the more I look into it! Lol

 

[trentm]

I'm a little confused while researching water profiles for Munich Helles. Many say forgo the gypsum and just go with a little calcium chloride to get your calcium up to 50. (This is basically with RO water) then I read others stating to throw in a little bit of gypsum to dry it out a bit.

What about Chloride levels? What is too high? If I add calcium chloride to my water to get up in the 50 Ca range my chloride jumps up around 80.

Isn't Calcium all about yeast health and floc where Chloride is about maltiness? Seems most push a certain Ca level and don't talk about Cl. What are good ppm levels for a Helles? Thanks

Would like to add the profile I've been using for a Belgian Triple. While this is not a lager, the big Belgian Pales were developed to compete for market share back when European lagers started to dominate. They do emphasize a medium to strong malt character with a medium-dry finish. So for what is worth: Ca - 30, Na - 10, SO4 - 15, and Cl - 60 (in PPM). To achieve this profile I'm using RO water and the Bru'n Water spreadsheet, adjust the sparge and mash the same and use: 0.1 g - Gypsum, 0.25 g - Calcium Chloride, and 0.1 g - salt (per gallon). I do dissolve the Calcium Chloride in water as per the sticky. I switched to this profile for my last Triple and won 2nd place BOS at the Mayfaire Competition in Los Angeles this spring and more recently, 1st in class at the Indiana State Fair. Thanks to the advice from Martin, A.J., and the Brew Science forum!

 

[wobdee]

Just read Martin's article in Zymurgy Mar/Apr 2015 about Calcium and Magnesium. What a great article, I didn't realize there was so much Ca and Mg already in the malt and the relationship of both to yeast health and flocculation. That article answered many of my questions, thanks Martin.

So if the malt already has these ions naturally do the water calculators out there take this into account?

 

[mabrungard]

So if the malt already has these ions naturally do the water calculators out there take this into account?

No. Since malt and its ionic content are variable, it would be a fool's errand to chase after that ionic content and try to account for it. Just settle for quantifying the starting water ionic content and adjust that to meet your taste goals.