BYO Magazine clone recipes; not enough extract?

[WhataMack]

(I've searched the forums and can't find any threads about this subject)

I've been going through some of the recipes in the BYO Magazine's "150 Classic Clone Recipes" special edition, looking at the "extract plus grains" versions. I've noticed that the amounts of extract for the recipes I've made or want to make seem to be way too low to achieve the target OG's, according to the calculation resources I always use when preparing ingredient amounts (which have always been very accurate for determining extract required for target OG's).

Some examples of these recipes are below. They're all partial mash:

* Paulaner Hefe-Weizen clone -
1.5 lbs. DME
3.75 lbs. LME, late addition
2.1 lbs. wheat malt
0.9 lbs. pilsner malt
Target OG is 1.053, but the above will yield only about 1.038. I made this recipe per above amounts before confirming this, and measured OG of 1.040. Next day I added 1.5 lbs. more DME and had measured gravity of 1.053.

* Bell's Brewery Two Hearted IPA clone -
4.5 lbs. DME
1.0 lbs. 2-row malt
2.0 lbs. Vienna malt
0.5 lbs. crystal
0.33 lbs. Carapils malt
Target OG is 1.058, but the above should yield only about 1.036. I made this recipe but converted the DME to about 8 lbs. of LME with same amount of grains and had measured OG of 1.060.

* Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone -
1.8 lbs. DME
4.0 lbs. LME, late addition
1 lb. 6 oz. 2-row pale malt
10 oz. crystal malt
Target OG is 1.052 (Sierra Nevada site says OG is 13 Plato, which is close to BYO recipe's OG), but the above should yield only about 1.040. Have not made this recipe yet.

* Troges Brewing Co. HopBack Amber clone -
7.75 lbs. LME
2.5 lbs. Munich malt
0.25 lbs. crystal malt
1.0 oz. chocolate malt
Target OG is 1.063, but the above should yield only about 1.052. Have not made this recipe yet.

BYO credits the brewers throughout the magazine who directly helped in creating the different recipes. None of the above recipes have these credits.

So, I'm curious if anyone else has seen these inaccuracies in this BYO special clone edition. I've shown these recipes to my local homebrew shop (they're very experienced) and they're just as puzzled as I am. It sure seems odd that these could all be just misprints.

 

[D2T]

Have you taken into account your own efficiency in the calculations? BYO may be using a higher one.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Efficiency is fixed with extract brews.

 

[D2T]

Whoops That's right. I noticed the same kinds of discrepancies with the all grain recipes until I realized my efficiency at the time was much lower.

 

[WhataMack]

Have you taken into account your own efficiency in the calculations? BYO may be using a higher one.

Not sure what you mean by my "efficiencies" (is that an all-grain measurement? I've never made all-grain), but my partial mash measured OG's have always been extremely close to the target OG's for other recipes that I've made from other (non-BYO) sources. Again, I've reviewed these with my experienced LHBS as well as my brother, who's been partial mash brewing for years, and both say these amounts seem way too low for the target OG's.

 

[D2T]

Not sure what you mean by my "efficiencies" (is that an all-grain measurement? I've never made all-grain)

Yeah, just ignore me. I'm still waking up I skipped straight from extract to all-grain so sometimes I forget partial mash exists.

 

[Bokonon]

Are you including gravity points from the partial mash? I stuck the numbers of the SNPA into beersmith. I'm going to assume exactly 5 gal batches since it wasn't listed and I don't have that mag. I've also never done a partial mash so I'm not sure what efficiency you get extracting from the partial mash (maybe 50%?)

So with just the malt extracts it says the OG should be 1.043. If you get 50% efficiency mashing the grains then the OG would be 1.050, 60% would be 1.052

I guess you would need to figure out what your partial mash efficiency has been in the past to be able to apply it to future recipes

 

[Brett0424]

Yeah the problem is that they for some reason, on some of those recipes, calculated OG's as if you were mashing and sparging the specialty grains to get a 60-70% efficiency. Well, if you just steep the grains you'll only get a couple gravity points (maybe up to 25% efficiency) out of them and you won't hit the gravity. It is a flaw in the recipes because they don't tell you to mash. Just take this into account and fix them as needed.

 

[WhataMack]

Yes, I'm cracking (not grinding), steeping and sparging the specialty grains per the recipes. btw, they don't say to mash them but to steep and sparge, so it sure sounds like they want you to do a partial mash.

From what I've read, partial mashing doesn't really contribute many fermentables, and isn't meant to do so. It's used mostly for body, head retention, color and some specific flavoring.

 

[david_42]

All of those recipes look like mini-mashes to me. You would never steep 2-row, or Munich for that matter. In fact, unless you steeped at 170F or higher to de-nature the enzymes, the presence of 2-row and Munich will make it a mash.

(WM - you have steeping & partial mashing reversed.)

 

[BlindLemonLars]

All of those recipes look like mini-mashes to me. You would never steep 2-row, or Munich for that matter.

Absolutely. If you plug these recipes into Beersmith as partial mashes with 70% efficiency, the numbers come out dead on.

 

[WhataMack]

Well, if you look at the above Hefe-Weizen recipe, you really wouldn't be getting much in the way of fermentables from the small amounts of those particular specialty grains, would you? The LME should convert to about 3 lbs. of DME, so the total DME is 4.5 lbs. To get to the target OG of 1.053 in a DME-only recipe, you'd need an additional 2 lbs. or so of DME for a total of 6.6 lbs. The specialty grains in that recipe won't contribute that amount of fermentables to increase the OG to that target, would they?

 

[Bokonon]

Well, if you look at the above Hefe-Weizen recipe, you really wouldn't be getting much in the way of fermentables from the small amounts of those particular specialty grains, would you? The LME should convert to about 3 lbs. of DME, so the total DME is 4.5 lbs. To get to the target OG of 1.053 in a DME-only recipe, you'd need an additional 2 lbs. or so of DME for a total of 6.6 lbs. The specialty grains in that recipe won't contribute that amount of fermentables to increase the OG to that target, would they?

At 70% efficiency that 3 lbs of grain (2.1lbs wheat, .9lbs pilsener malt) will give you 16 points.

 

[BlindLemonLars]

Well, if you look at the above Hefe-Weizen recipe, you really wouldn't be getting much in the way of fermentables from the small amounts of those particular specialty grains, would you? The LME should convert to about 3 lbs. of DME, so the total DME is 4.5 lbs. To get to the target OG of 1.053 in a DME-only recipe, you'd need an additional 2 lbs. or so of DME for a total of 6.6 lbs. The specialty grains in that recipe won't contribute that amount of fermentables to increase the OG to that target, would they?

Those are base grains, if you mash them you will get plenty of fermentables. As a partial mash, Beersmith calculates 1.056 @ 70% efficiency. As extract/steeping, just 1.043.

 

[WhataMack]

OK, I guess I'm confused between what partial mashing and what steeping are. Let me describe what I do with the specialty grains and hopefully you can tell me which process this is (or if it's a combo of both, or maybe neither)...

I crack the specialty grains, one type at a time, in a big Ziploc bag using a heavy rolling pin made of marble. I try not to crush them up in order to avoid too many husks and dust in an attempt to minimize astringency. Then I put each different cracked grain into big hop (muslin?) bags, tie them off and put them in a stainless-steel colander.

I use a 5-gallon stainless-steel brewpot, put 2 gallons of filtered water in it and heat it up to the desired temperature (usually in the low-150 degree range). Once it's reached that temperature, I put the bagged grain in the colander into the heated water for the recipe's indicated amount of time...usually 45 minutes. At the same time, I heat up about 2 or 3 cups of filtered water in a small stainless-steel pot, to the same temperature.

After 45 minutes, I pull the colander out of the brewpot, hold it over the brewpot, take the 2 to 3 cups of heated water and pour that rinsing (sparge?) water over the grain, making sure to stop before the draining water comes out clear. I then add the extract to the brewpot and crank up the burner to get the brewpot to a rolling boil. After that, I add hops according to the recipe.

So, what am I doing...steeping, partial mash or what?

 

[FlyingHorse]

I use a 5-gallon stainless-steel brewpot, put 2 gallons of filtered water in it and heat it up to the desired temperature (usually in the low-150 degree range). Once it's reached that temperature, I put the bagged grain in the colander into the heated water for the recipe's indicated amount of time...usually 45 minutes. At the same time, I heat up about 2 or 3 cups of filtered water in a small stainless-steel pot, to the same temperature.

After 45 minutes, I pull the colander out of the brewpot, hold it over the brewpot, take the 2 to 3 cups of heated water and pour that rinsing (sparge?) water over the grain, making sure to stop before the draining water comes out clear. I then add the extract to the brewpot and crank up the burner to get the brewpot to a rolling boil. After that, I add hops according to the recipe.

So, what am I doing...steeping, partial mash or what?

You're using partial mash recipes, but your process is more like steeping. If you did eveything the way you described, but sparged with a bigger volume of water (between 1-2 qt/lb), you'd likely see much higher efficiencies, and come closer to the OG in the recipe.

Might want to check out the relevant chapters in www.howtobrew.com

 

[BlindLemonLars]

So, what am I doing...steeping, partial mash or what?

Technically I suppose you're mashing, but achieving extremely low efficiency due to the temps/volumes used.

I'd try mashing with just under a gallon, holding it at about 154° for an hour. Then, sparge with 168° water up to my desired boil volume.

If you mash in with too much water, you dilute the enzymes and don't get proper conversion. The mash should be quite thick. Brewing software makes figuring out the appropriate temps/volumes quite easy.

 

[Brew-boy]

I made several of them, you always have to adjust for your efficiency when doing all grain.

 

[rabidgerbil]

Those are base grains, if you mash them you will get plenty of fermentables. As a partial mash, Beersmith calculates 1.056 @ 70% efficiency. As extract/steeping, just 1.043.

I have the particular issue of BYO in question, and I believe in there that they state that they calculate for a 65% efficiency, and that this has been part of their standard assumptions since 2003. I will have to check it once I get home later today.

 

[Saccharomyces]

All BYO recipes assume a 65% mash efficiency. Plugging in the recipes I get the same OGs they said, not what you were seeing. Your PM efficiency must be really low.

- Eric

 

[Hammy71]

I just finished this receipe from the mag. I came up with 1.048 OG. The only thing I did different was do a 4 gallon boil (most I could do on my stove). That's not to bad is it?.... I'm satisfied. I think if my efficiency was a little better the receipe would be dead on......

 

[ifishsum]

Deathbrewer's thread explains true partial mash brewing quite well - the only thing I really do different is that I use a 2 gallon drink cooler to mash in because it holds temperature well. I'm averaging 70% efficiency with my setup and so far have always hit my target gravities. Basically it's all grain brewing on a small scale, then using extract to get up to 5 gallons. I've even done 2.5 gallon all grain recipes with this method.

 

[dontman]

(I've searched the forums and can't find any threads about this subject)

* Bell's Brewery Two Hearted IPA clone -
4.5 lbs. DME
1.0 lbs. 2-row malt
2.0 lbs. Vienna malt
0.5 lbs. crystal
0.33 lbs. Carapils malt
Target OG is 1.058, but the above should yield only about 1.036. I made this recipe but converted the DME to about 8 lbs. of LME with same amount of grains and had measured OG of 1.060.

I did a quick and dirty hand calc for the og that I would expect to get on this recipe of those that you listed and I came up with an expected OG of 1.060 based on 75% eff of the grains.

I don't know what you are doing wrong in your calcs or mash or boil but you are doing it quite wrong. On second look. I figured it out. You are not accounting at all for the grains. The LME in this recipe ALONE would give you 1.060. The grains would add an additional .020 for a total of 1.080. How is it that you are getting 0% efficiency on your grains???? If you get them wet at all you are going to be pulling some GUs out of the crystal at least.

EDIT: I read a couple of the posts that I missed before posting and I believe there is a basic misunderstanding of what "unfermentables" means. When you steep crystal and vienna and carapils and they contribute "unfermentable" sugar to the wort that sugar will still show up in the OG. So if you have 5 pounds of DME that gets you an OG of 1.045, if you add 2 pounds of Crystal malt to that you WILL raise the OG. To the tune of .010-.015 if steeped and rinsed properly. It is a myth that this is pretty much unfermentable sugar first off. Most of it will ferment into alcohol. The remainder will add to FG. The stuff that remains unfermented is what contributes to mouthfeel, sweetness, and head retention.

So if you are using software and add 2 lbs crystal malt to the recipe you will see a rise in all three: OG, expected ABV, and FG.