Bru'n dry Irish stout water/mash pH questions

[makisupapolice14]

hey folks planning to brew my first Irish stout later this week being modeled after this recipe from zymurgy in Nov/Dec 2013:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/brun-dry-stout/

Looking at the listed instructions, if I do a full volume biab mash in about 7.75 gallons of 100%ro water, omitting the roast barley until the end the mash, my resulting room temp mash ph is 5.43 with a 3.75oz acid malt addition.

Does this seem like too much acid malt for a dry stout? Should I add even more to further acidify? When exactly should I add the roast barley? I was thinking the last 10-15 mins of the 60 min mash.

How does this resulting water profile look with 4g gypsum and 2g cacl added to my mash water?
Ca 50
Mg0
Na0
Cl 33
So4 76

Is the amount of so4 too aggressive for this style? I figured it could accentuate the dryness of the style.

I'm also a bit concerned yeast health wise with the calcium barely being >50 ppm. When I followed Martin's guideline to add 2g of gypsum and 1.7g cacl per 8 gallons ro water, these mineral values seem too low to me.

Thanks in advance! Excited to try this style for the first time.

 

[bitteritdown]

Lots of questions. I don't think Mr. Brungard would lead you astray.

Adding the roast barley at the end of the mash (or even the sparge) means that its acidity is not contributing to the mash itself, therefore add the recommended amount of acid malt. You probably wouldn't want to acidify any more than that though.

Your calcium and SO4 look to be just fine, it's personal preference. Brew it, taste it, adjust for next time, repeat ad nauseam until perfection is attained.

 

[mabrungard]

An Irish Dry Stout (ala Guinness), is a somewhat tart beer. Its the late addition of the roast barley that brings the wort down from a 'normal' mashing pH to a much lower kettle wort pH. With only the base malt and barley, its likely that you'll need to add some form of acid to that main mash to bring the pH into the proper range around 5.4.

The reason we need to mash the base malt and barley at normal mashing pH is that enzymatic and proteolytic activity is too high at lower pH. Guinness does the same at their breweries, mashes the base malt and barley and then adds the Guinness Flavor Extract (roast barley steeped in very low alkalinity water) to the kettle wort.

It's good stuff.

 

[makisupapolice14]

An Irish Dry Stout (ala Guinness), is a somewhat tart beer. Its the late addition of the roast barley that brings the wort down from a 'normal' mashing pH to a much lower kettle wort pH. With only the base malt and barley, its likely that you'll need to add some form of acid to that main mash to bring the pH into the proper range around 5.4.

The reason we need to mash the base malt and barley at normal mashing pH is that enzymatic and proteolytic activity is too high at lower pH. Guinness does the same at their breweries, mashes the base malt and barley and then adds the Guinness Flavor Extract (roast barley steeped in very low alkalinity water) to the kettle wort.

It's good stuff.

Thanks for the info. I recall reading that I the zymurgy article that your authored. My main concerns are weather my acid and mineral additions as stated above seem appropriate for the style (which they seem to be given the replies thus far) . I'm also genuinely curious about the actual timing I should use for the late mash roast barley addition.

I love Guinness and we had our fair share from the source and in pubs but I've never attempted a dry Irish stout in my almost 2 years of all grain brewing.

 

[mabrungard]

Roast addition in the last 15 minutes should be fine.

 

[makisupapolice14]

Roast addition in the last 15 minutes should be fine.

Perfect thanks again martin! Can't wait to try your recipe

 

[cire]

Not much calcium is needed to keep the yeast healthy, zinc is what they might need for that. Calcium will aid yeast to flocculate, as it does for break materials in the kettle. A fear for the lack of calcium is well founded all the same, but more for the flavors it aids with the associated sulphate and chloride as well as for clarity, although the latter may not be as vital in a dark beer.

It would seem many North American beers are made with less calcium than their equivalents in UK. Martin's description of the manufacture of Guinness differs vastly to that by Alfred Barnard in his third volume of The Noted Breweries of Great Britain and Ireland published in the eighteen nineties when the beer was also equally different. I'm not sure what versions of Guinness are currently available in North America, most Guinness now appears to to be made from sorgum in Nigeria, but I have an analysis of Draught Guinness made in Dublin in recent times. This is from the finished beer, not the liquor used.
Ca 57.5, Mg 63.4, Na 17, SO4 337, Cl 150ppm.

This might put the cat amongst the pigeons, but the above is what I have and recognise the authenticity of its source. Often the information we receive is passed on in good faith without contested by those who know better, particularly the breweries concerned for they know how valuable the true information is. It sometimes happens after a brewery closes, when secrecy is no longer necessary that true facts may be learned. While the following wasn't written by someone expert in brewing liquor, the last paragraph shows how easily one can jump to the wrong conclusion about commercial brewers and how they might treat water.

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Magee,_Marshall_and_Co

 

[makisupapolice14]

Not much calcium is needed to keep the yeast healthy, zinc is what they might need for that. Calcium will aid yeast to flocculate, as it does for break materials in the kettle. A fear for the lack of calcium is well founded all the same, but more for the flavors it aids with the associated sulphate and chloride as well as for clarity, although the latter may not be as vital in a dark beer.

It would seem many North American beers are made with less calcium than their equivalents in UK. Martin's description of the manufacture of Guinness differs vastly to that by Alfred Barnard in his third volume of The Noted Breweries of Great Britain and Ireland published in the eighteen nineties when the beer was also equally different. I'm not sure what versions of Guinness are currently available in North America, most Guinness now appears to to be made from sorgum in Nigeria, but I have an analysis of Draught Guinness made in Dublin in recent times. This is from the finished beer, not the liquor used.
Ca 57.5, Mg 63.4, Na 17, SO4 337, Cl 150ppm.

This might put the cat amongst the pigeons, but the above is what I have and recognise the authenticity of its source. Often the information we receive is passed on in good faith without contested by those who know better, particularly the breweries concerned for they know how valuable the true information is. It sometimes happens after a brewery closes, when secrecy is no longer necessary that true facts may be learned. While the following wasn't written by someone expert in brewing liquor, the last paragraph shows how easily one can jump to the wrong conclusion about commercial brewers and how they might treat water.

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Magee,_Marshall_and_Co

Wow super interesting info thanks for passing on

 

[mabrungard]

Martin's description of the manufacture of Guinness differs vastly to that by Alfred Barnard in his third volume of The Noted Breweries of Great Britain and Ireland published in the eighteen nineties when the beer was also equally different.

As you note, things have changed in the hundred plus years since that was written. Methods, materials, and the resulting beers have all changed markedly. The use of Guinness Flavor Extract is widely known and that component was exported to the brewer's various world-wide breweries to help maintain the consistency in the products.

Another important factor that is discussed in the original Zymurgy article but omitted in this discussion, is that the water supplied to the St James Gate brewery historically came directly from the Wicklow Mountains and it was nearly Pilsen quality. With that realization, most can recognize why Guinness brews their stout that way and why it tastes as it does.

 

[cire]

Another important factor that is discussed in the original Zymurgy article but omitted in this discussion, is that the water supplied to the St James Gate brewery historically came directly from the Wicklow Mountains and it was nearly Pilsen quality. With that realization, most can recognize why Guinness brews their stout that way and why it tastes as it does.

Sadly another of those misconceptions. From Barnard's book for any who doubt, St James Gate is the first brewery described taking eight chapters in Volume III which can be found and read on the web.

The Guinness Flavour Extract is, I believe, true. Produced in Dublin it is shipped to Nigeria for use in their otherwise non-barley malt brew made from locally obtained sorghum. I don't know if this is available in USA, but it can be found in UK and to me tastes sickly sweet. I don't have a mineral analysis for that, but it might perhaps be worth having done should anyone ever wish to replicate that brew.

Is there a list of beer analyses on this site? It does hold a vast amount of advice for water profiles based on personal experience and belief rather than bona fide fact.

 

[Miraculix]

As you note, things have changed in the hundred plus years since that was written. Methods, materials, and the resulting beers have all changed markedly. The use of Guinness Flavor Extract is widely known and that component was exported to the brewer's various world-wide breweries to help maintain the consistency in the products.

Another important factor that is discussed in the original Zymurgy article but omitted in this discussion, is that the water supplied to the St James Gate brewery historically came directly from the Wicklow Mountains and it was nearly Pilsen quality. With that realization, most can recognize why Guinness brews their stout that way and why it tastes as it does.

Very good info, thanks. I was always wondering how the guiness brewers manage to get such a dark colour without creating an overly roasty beer. Cold water extraction! And now I even see why they started using it.

 

[cire]

Very good info, thanks. I was always wondering how the guiness brewers manage to get such a dark colour without creating an overly roasty beer. Cold water extraction! And now I even see why they started using it.

Volume III by Barnard can be found here .....
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/aai-f...-Breweries-of-Great-Britain-and-Ireland-3.pdf

It describes the roasting and mashing during his visit. It was roasted to a turn and added to the mash. What Martin describes is done today for Nigerian Guinness and maybe others too.

 

[mabrungard]

Sadly another of those misconceptions. From Barnard's book for any who doubt, St James Gate is the first brewery described taking eight chapters in Volume III which can be found and read on the web.

The main water source for the Grand Canal is the Wicklow Mountains. The hard and alkaline water that many sources call Dublin water, is largely from River Liffey.

As further proof that Guinness relies on the Pilsen-like water from the Wicklow Mtns is the fact that they now have a rather large RO system to supply the brewery when the Wicklow source runs low (Dublin has pretty severe droughts on occasion). With the RO system, they can use the regular water from the Dublin water system for producing their beer.

 

[makisupapolice14]

The main water source for the Grand Canal is the Wicklow Mountains. The hard and alkaline water that many sources call Dublin water, is largely from River Liffey.

As further proof that Guinness relies on the Pilsen-like water from the Wicklow Mtns is the fact that they now have a rather large RO system to supply the brewery when the Wicklow source runs low (Dublin has pretty severe droughts on occasion). With the RO system, they can use the regular water from the Dublin water system for producing their beer.

So any idea if this Wicklow Pilsen like water is left completely untreated prior to brewing?

 

[cire]

The main water source for the Grand Canal is the Wicklow Mountains. The hard and alkaline water that many sources call Dublin water, is largely from River Liffey.

As further proof that Guinness relies on the Pilsen-like water from the Wicklow Mtns is the fact that they now have a rather large RO system to supply the brewery when the Wicklow source runs low (Dublin has pretty severe droughts on occasion). With the RO system, they can use the regular water from the Dublin water system for producing their beer.

And there was me thinking the River Liffey rose in the Wicklow mountains. Must Check Wiki.

Similarly thought the Grand Canal had multiple other sources.

https://irishwaterwayshistory.com/a...-grand-canal/water-supply-to-the-grand-canal/

 

[mabrungard]

So any idea if this Wicklow Pilsen like water is left completely untreated prior to brewing?

I don't know that it is or isn't modified for brewing liquor, but I'm sure that they're not adding alkalinity. However with any good British brewer, I expect that they are adding calcium salts to the liquor.

 

[makisupapolice14]

I don't know that it is or isn't modified for brewing liquor, but I'm sure that they're not adding alkalinity. However with any good British brewer, I expect that they are adding calcium salts to the liquor.

Pretty much what I expected. Thanks for everything martin. Giving your recipe a go tomorrow I'll report back in a few weeks. Since I don't have a nitro setup my plan is to target approx 1.5-2 vols of co2 like I do for my mild. Even though it's less carbonated it seems to give the beer a lighter, airy mouthfeel.

 

[thedon986]

The reason we need to mash the base malt and barley at normal mashing pH is that enzymatic and proteolytic activity is too high at lower pH. Guinness does the same at their breweries, mashes the base malt and barley and then adds the Guinness Flavor Extract (roast barley steeped in very low alkalinity water) to the kettle wort.

I'm brewing this recipe up this weekend. Can you elaborate a bit more on steeping the roasted barley (have 1lb for this batch)? I think I would like to give that a go.

 

[mabrungard]

I'm brewing this recipe up this weekend. Can you elaborate a bit more on steeping the roasted barley (have 1lb for this batch)? I think I would like to give that a go.

In the case of brewing this recipe, you just add the milled roast barley on top of the mash bed and either recirculate or mix in. No steeping in a separate liquid required.

 

[Nebraskan]

Looked at the recipe (EXCELLENT) and modified it slightly adding in some Melanoidin malt and Munich Dark malt, but also a small amount 4.2% of Acidulated Malt. With the unmalted barley, I have some dehusked barley, not malted, and wondering if I can just crush it up and add it, rather than looking for barley flakes?

Thinking of just using RO water with the CaCl and Gypsum scaled back a bit since I've developed the recipe for 3.25 gallons in the fermenter. You all should see the water from north of Lewellen and Oshkosh, NE that comes from the Ogallala aquifer in the Sandhills of Nebraska. Some of the finest tasting cleanest water I have ever drank in my 64 years. Very low mineral content, as it is water that is from sand strata.

ADDENDUM: followed Martin's info and my Munich Dunkel had a room temp mash pH of 5.33. Tested the beer tonight that has been through 5 Micron and in keg, and warmed to room temp has a finished pH of 4.44 pH..

 

[Rhaop]

There are two fantastic brew strong episodes from march/april ‘14 on water regions, I highly recommend listening to both of them, they have a special guest on those episodes

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

@mabrungard I've had great success lately with acidifying my lighter color beers to between 5.0 to 5.1 post boil after mashing in the 5.2-5.3 range

for darker style beers I've generally been mashing around 5.5 per you amazing article: Adding Body to your Stout | Bru'n Water

if mashing in that higher range is it still advisable to make PH adjustments post boil on darker color beers (I'm talking about more fuller bodied stouts like Imperial Stouts, not Irish Stouts)? Or would that reverse all the good you have done in the mash to minimize acrid flavors?

Normally the 5.5 mash works quite well for me, and I make post fermentation adjustments ocasionally if the beer tastes at all dull. I think other variables are at play here that might make it dull sometimes like yeast selection and hops schedule.

 

[mabrungard]

Dry stout is a special case. Higher wort acidity is desirable for that style. For other stouts and porters, the higher wort pH is often preferable.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Dry stout is a special case. Higher wort acidity is desirable for that style. For other stouts and porters, the higher wort pH is often preferable.

Thanks Martin! That makes sense