Bicarbonate and pH, better understanding.

[TroelsHagensen]

Hi there,

I need help understanding the role of bicarbonates better than I do at the moment.
I am brewing in Greenland, with very soft water - you can see the water profile below.
At the moment I am working on a brown ale. For the style I see a lot of suggestions
aiming for 100 - 200 HCO3.
So here is my question. Are there any reasons to aim for those levels, when 35 ppm
HCO3 should result in a mash pH of 5,5? Adding no HCO3 = mash pH of 5,48.
I have done mashes with 140 ppm HCO3, but then I need to add acid to reduce the
pH.
If the only role of HC03 is to increase the mash pH it seems wired to add a lot of
HCO3 to hit the called for levels just to add acid.

Also, if somebody has something clever to share about mash-pH 5,4 vs 5,5 in my Brown Ale,
then please do!

One of my goals is to avoid acidity and astringency in the finished beer. I want round,
pleasant notes of chocolate, toffee and coffee. And no muddyness

Ca: 7,5
Mg: 1,5
Na: 6,4
SO4: 3,5
Cl: 13
HCO3: 24,1
Pretty close to a blank canvas.

My Brown Ale water profile:
Ca: 60-70
Mg: 0-5
Na: 25
SO4: 50
Cl: 60

Thank you in advance!

 

[Dgallo]

In the most simplistic explanation;

bicarbonates are basic “buffers” that effect the affect acid has on lowering your ph. So the higher bicarbonate level is the more acid you will need to lower the ph and the opposite is true as well, low bicarbonate less acid needed

 

[mabrungard]

Yep, pretty much rain or snow fall. Great starting point.

In my opinion, the bicarbonate or alkalinity values presented in ANY water profile should be considered to be placeholders only. The true bicarbonate content that will be needed in your mashing water should be that which produces an acceptable mashing pH result. Don't use any water profile's bicarb value as your brewing target.

The bicarbonate content in your sparging water should always be low. At the maximum, the alkalinity for sparging water should be 50 ppm as CaCO3 (60 ppm bicarbonate). But for better results, keeping the alkalinity of sparging water between 0 and 25 ppm alkalinity (0 to 30 ppm bicarbonate) is wise.

 

[TroelsHagensen]

@ #2 I know that. I am not looking for most simplistic. I hoped and thought that, that would get across from what I wrote.

 

[TroelsHagensen]

Yep, pretty much rain or snow fall. Great starting point.

In my opinion, the bicarbonate or alkalinity values presented in ANY water profile should be considered to be placeholders only. The true bicarbonate content that will be needed in your mashing water should be that which produces an acceptable mashing pH result. Don't use any water profile's bicarb value as your brewing target.

The bicarbonate content in your sparging water should always be low. At the maximum, the alkalinity for sparging water should be 50 ppm as CaCO3 (60 ppm bicarbonate). But for better results, keeping the alkalinity of sparging water between 0 and 25 ppm alkalinity (0 to 30 ppm bicarbonate) is wise.

Thank you Martin, that has been my procedure for a long time! Then i started researching the subject a bit, but I don't really think I have come across any writings where bicarbonate is explained as something primarily to consider if your pH is off, instead of the other way around.
I have seen much writing where 'X-value bicarbonate is a good starting point for X style'.

 

[Dgallo]

@ #2 I know that. I am not looking for most simplistic. I hoped and thought that, that would get across from what I wrote

Gotcha. So there’s no need to aim for a bicarbonate level. The only thing to worry about is having your ph range for the type of beer your brewing. Also make sure your acidifying your space water as that will matter

Are you using Bru’n Water for your water calculations. If so, that spreadsheet was created by @mabrungard who has responded to you in this thread

 

[TroelsHagensen]

Gotcha. So there’s no need to aim for a bicarbonate level. The only thing to worry about is having your ph range for the type of beer your brewing. Also make sure your acidifying your space water as that will matter

Are you using Bru’n Water for your water calculations. If so, that spreadsheet was created by @mabrungard who has responded to you in this thread

Thanks, I guess that is the simplified answer I was looking for
I know who Martin is and have read some of his stuff. I have yet to move to bru n water. I am using beer Smith at this point.

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks, I guess that is the simplified answer I was looking for
I know who Martin is and have read some of his stuff. I have yet to move to bru n water. I am using beer Smith at this point.

Not just saying it because he is a HBT member but Bru’n water is so easy to use. I started using it having no idea at all about water chem and after reading the intro sheet (regarding water and what ph and specific ions do to the finished beer) and toying around with the inputs, I quickly was able to use it and my ph almost always hits directly to what the spreadsheet calculated.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Water with the following mineralization 'profile' requires ~110.4 mg/L (ppm) Bicarbonate in order to be real (I.E., to exist in the real world):

Ca: 65
Mg: 2.5
Na: 25
SO4: 50
Cl: 60

The requisite need for any water profile is that it exhibits Cation:Anion mEq/L balance. This midrange taken from your stated target mineralization desire exhibits Cation:Anion mEq/L balance only when Bicarb. is 110.4 mg/L (ppm).

Note carefully that this is not stating that you would actually want or need to either mash or sparge with such a high Bicarbonate level.

 

[TroelsHagensen]

Water with the following mineralization 'profile' requires ~110.4 mg/L (ppm) Bicarbonate in order to be real (I.E., to exist in the real world):

Ca: 65
Mg: 2.5
Na: 25
SO4: 50
Cl: 60

The requisite need for any water profile is that it exhibits Cation:Anion mEq/L balance. This midrange taken from your stated target mineralization desire exhibits Cation:Anion mEq/L balance only when Bicarb. is 110.4 mg/L (ppm).

Note carefully that this is not stating that you would actually want or need to either mash or sparge with such a high Bicarbonate level.

That's interesting. What is the consequence of not reaching an equilibrium then? Precipitation?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

That's interesting. What is the consequence of not reaching an equilibrium then? Precipitation?

That or electric shock.

That's why all "real" water, regardless of its mineral analysis, is charge neutral.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Have no fear (this side of broken mineralization profile dreams), as you can only make real water.

 

[TroelsHagensen]

Have no fear (this side of broken mineralization profile dreams), as you can only make real water.

Well that kind of takes me back to my initial question, suddenly it seems that there is a use for the bicarbonate not just for manipulating the pH, but to keep the minirals where I want them. So what is the proper procedure?
Making 'unreal' water? We are not getting the adjustments we are aiming for then? Why go for something not in equilibrium?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You can't make unreal water, you can only dream of it. The answer is to stop dreaming. I.E., make a water that is real, and ignore worshiping at the alter of water profiles.

 

[Dgallo]

You can't make unreal water, you can only dream of it. The answer is to stop dreaming. I.E., make a water that is real, and ignore worshiping at the alter of water profiles.

You’re tripping me out man lol

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You’re tripping me out man lol

Well, I could have stated that if you must dream (of mineralization), it's better to dream your own dream than to dream the dream of someone else.

Wherein one generally finds the latter to be impossible.

 

[RBQ]

After I started using Bru'n Water I started (selfishly) praying for Martin's continued good health....

 

[TroelsHagensen]

Water with the following mineralization 'profile' requires ~110.4 mg/L (ppm) Bicarbonate in order to be real (I.E., to exist in the real world):

Ca: 65
Mg: 2.5
Na: 25
SO4: 50
Cl: 60

The requisite need for any water profile is that it exhibits Cation:Anion mEq/L balance. This midrange taken from your stated target mineralization desire exhibits Cation:Anion mEq/L balance only when Bicarb. is 110.4 mg/L (ppm).

Note carefully that this is not stating that you would actually want or need to either mash or sparge with such a high Bicarbonate level.

I can come pretty close to the desired 'dream-profile' I presented, by having a little less Ca, and a little more Cl and SO4. Mashing at 5,5 I end up with 32,5ppm HCO3.

 

[Dgallo]

.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I am using beer Smith at this point.

When I started into water chemistry adjustments, I was using BeerSmith 3.0. I found the pH was always off. I started using Bru'n Water (and also used Mash Made Easy a bit). Then BeerSmith 3.1 (I think) updated the pH model and also included the "BW" model (which I think is based on the Bru'n Water model?). I found that the updated MPH model in BeerSmith 3.1 fairly closely matched my measured pH values, so I have been using just BeerSmith since then.

Like many software packages, BeerSmith has a feature where you can select a target profile and then click a "Calculate" button to calculate exactly how much of each salt to add. I don't use that myself. I could see where it would be handy, but just keep in mind that if it says to add 0.42 g of Epsom Salt to hit an exact Magnesium value, it likely does not matter much if your Magnesium level is 5 or 15.

BeerSmith will calculate how much acid is needed to lower your pH, but the flow is a bit awkward. On the Mash tap, you enter the "Unadjust Mash pH" value into the "Measured Mash pH" field. Enter a value in the "Target pH" field, and select an acid type. It will then calculate how much of that acid is needed. You then enter that amount of acid (or acid malt). I don't think it has a model to calculate additions to raise your mash pH.

 

[TroelsHagensen]

When I started into water chemistry adjustments, I was using BeerSmith 3.0. I found the pH was always off. I started using Bru'n Water (and also used Mash Made Easy a bit). Then BeerSmith 3.1 (I think) updated the pH model and also included the "BW" model (which I think is based on the Bru'n Water model?). I found that the updated MPH model in BeerSmith 3.1 fairly closely matched my measured pH values, so I have been using just BeerSmith since then.

Like many software packages, BeerSmith has a feature where you can select a target profile and then click a "Calculate" button to calculate exactly how much of each salt to add. I don't use that myself. I could see where it would be handy, but just keep in mind that if it says to add 0.42 g of Epsom Salt to hit an exact Magnesium value, it likely does not matter much if your Magnesium level is 5 or 15.

BeerSmith will calculate how much acid is needed to lower your pH, but the flow is a bit awkward. On the Mash tap, you enter the "Unadjust Mash pH" value into the "Measured Mash pH" field. Enter a value in the "Target pH" field, and select an acid type. It will then calculate how much of that acid is needed. You then enter that amount of acid (or acid malt). I don't think it has a model to calculate additions to raise your mash pH.

I don't understand why I am given a lecture on how beer Smith works , was my initial question so elementary? I am well aware of how beer Smith works, been using it since 2018. In 2020 I started working in a different brewery where they actually knew what they were doing (largely), and also did more water treatment, the first brewery actually didn't, but I got them started doing so. The second brewery were using version 3, so no more version 2, which is where I started. Been trying other software too.

What has left me questioning the way I approach my water treatment is a lack of descriptive work flow, especially when suggested water profiles for certain beer styles are presented.
Why suggest a level of HCO3 between 100 and 200 when the goal, way before matching that, is to obtain a proper mash pH, which arguably is one of most important aspects of water treatment.
If I have understood what has been written here correctly, I would personally omit a suggested HCO3 level and just write something like: 'Appropriate amount of HCO3 to obtain proper mash pH', which for me was only 35ppm for a mash pH of 5,5.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Such poor advice as to "mash this grist in water with 100 or 200 ppm Bicarbonate" should never have been given out in the first place. Advice such as mash this ~40 mEq on the acid side of pH 5.40 grist within 20L of 2 mEq/L Alkalinity water would be much better, albeit not perfect (primarily since it is not accounting for Ca++ and Mg++ interaction with malt phosphates raising the 40 mEq on the acid side grist somewhere above 40 mEq in acidity).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

2 mEq/L Alkalinity = 100.0869 mg/L (ppm) Alkalinity as CaCO3, or 100 ppm Alkalinity for all practical purposes.

And: 100 mg/L (ppm) Alkalinity as CaCO3 ~= 122 mg/L (ppm) Bicarbonate ~= 2mEq/L Alkalinity

But water volume within the mash (and also within the sparge) is critical...

 

[TroelsHagensen]

Such poor advice as to "mash this grist in water with 100 or 200 ppm Bicarbonate" should never have been given out in the first place. Advice such as mash this ~40 mEq on the acid side of pH 5.40 grist within 20L of 2 mEq/L Alkalinity water would be much better, albeit not perfect (primarily since it is not accounting for Ca++ and Mg++ interaction with malt phosphates raising the 40 mEq on the acid side grist somewhere above 40 mEq in acidity).

I think it is connected with a lacking way of presenting suggested water profiles. The same people are well aware of the importance of correct mash pH and how to achieve it.