Brewing First Sour - Open to any ideas, criticism, hints, or suggestions

[LowNotes]

I am attempting to brew the clone of Russian River's Supplication Ale from the HBT Recipe section, but as AG instead of partial mash.

I started it this past weekend, 2/1/2014, and am expecting it to take about 18 months total. Here is what I did so far, and my plan going forward:

10.00 lb Belgian Pale Malt
1.75 lb Vienna Malt
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L
0.50 lb Special B Malt
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt
1.75 oz Styrian Goldings (60 min) Hops
0.25 oz Styrian Goldings (10 min) Hops

I mashed for 60 minutes, BIAB, and my temp dropped from 152 to about 148 over that time. Did a 90 minute boil, cooled down to 65*, and pitched WLP530. I forgot to make a starter before...but I did make a little booster before starting my mash, 1cup of wort shaken periodicially throughout the brew day...seemed to at least get things going.

OG ended up high, 1.062, but hopefully not so much over that I ruined anything. I aerated by shaking the fermenter for 3 minutes. Set it in a room inside, ambient temp is 68* and I am hoping the fermentation kicks the temps up to the 70* that was recommended on the yeast vial.

It has been bubbling steadily for 3 days, and I feel good about it so far. Now for what I am planning next:

2 weeks from brew day, rack to a new bucket and add sour cherries. I have 8 cans of the "Oregon" sour cherries in water, 14.5oz each. I haven't decided exactly how many cans to use...possibly all 8, but was thinking at least 6. Any input here would be great. Add 2 oz. of medium toasted oak, and 12oz of pinot noir. Pitch the Brett (WLP650), with no starter.

2 months after adding Brett, pitch WLP655, with no starter.

Wait 12 months before touching anything, then give it a sniff and maybe a small sample. Once I think it is close, I plan on kegging it and putting about 18psi on it. My goal is for it to be ready to serve at a beach house with extended family the summer of 2015.

I have doubles of most gear, and plan on marking everything the beer touches post-brett with red tape and/or red marker, so I have dedicated sour-beer gear.

If anyone sees anything suspect in my plan, please let me know. I am totally new to this, and am nervous I am setting the bar a bit high for my first sour...

Thanks in advance!

 

[metic]

I prefer to add the fruit along with the bugs after it's been in secondary for a while. That way sugars aren't just eaten by sacch, which will still be dominant early on.

Sent from my VM670 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[dcHokie]

If you've already gone with a sacch primary, then I'd suggest adding the bugs/bugs together, soon, or when you rack to secondary. Go ahead and soak your oak cubes in some pinot now and then add the cubes in a few weeks/months. Let that ride for 12 months or so, then add your cherries for the last few months and the actual pinot wine to taste at bottling/kegging time.

 

[Calder]

You would have done better just to pitch the WLP655 right at the start and save the Belgian yeast.

As soon as fermentation slows, rack to secondary. If the beer is still fermenting, you will take across a lot of yeast, which you want, and leave behind much of the trub. Many will say you don't need to rack. Once racked, add the bugs, wlp655, and leave until Christmas.

Then, add the cherries. The sacc will be good and dead, and the brett and bugs will slowly work on the fruit. You can add the oak any time you like.

It will be ready for next year.

 

[LowNotes]

If you've already gone with a sacch primary, then I'd suggest adding the bugs/bugs together, soon, or when you rack to secondary. Go ahead and soak your oak cubes in some pinot now and then add the cubes in a few weeks/months. Let that ride for 12 months or so, then add your cherries for the last few months and the actual pinot wine to taste at bottling/kegging time.

I've only used oak once before, and I used the microwave/steaming method for sanitization. Do you need to do that if you soak them in pinot, or will the wine keep them from developing unwanted bugs?

So it seems like everyone is suggesting to add the Brett and bugs at the same time. Is that just something that has been determined to be the best practice/conventional wisdom? It sounds like the aim in this is to give them both more time to grow? Would there ever be a case where you would want the Brett to have a head start on the bugs, so more of the sugars get eaten by Brett proportionally? I am just trying to understand the reasoning behind all this, and if there was some specific purpose that the original recipe said to wait two months between pitching Brett and the bugs?

Also, does anyone have any advice on how many cherries to add? I think the recipe called for 3 lbs, so I suppose I can just weigh the contents of the cans and just do 3 lbs...some of it would be water weight, but I guess the water has absorbed a lot of cherry flavor.

Oh, another thing, does the timing of adding cherries matter if they are sour cherries or sweet cherries? I had to look all over for sour cherries, and I assume there is less sugar in them, and therefore the sacch might not go crazy on them?

 

[dcHokie]

I've only used oak once before, and I used the microwave/steaming method for sanitization. Do you need to do that if you soak them in pinot, or will the wine keep them from developing unwanted bugs?

So it seems like everyone is suggesting to add the Brett and bugs at the same time. Is that just something that has been determined to be the best practice/conventional wisdom? It sounds like the aim in this is to give them both more time to grow? Would there ever be a case where you would want the Brett to have a head start on the bugs, so more of the sugars get eaten by Brett proportionally? I am just trying to understand the reasoning behind all this, and if there was some specific purpose that the original recipe said to wait two months between pitching Brett and the bugs?

Also, does anyone have any advice on how many cherries to add? I think the recipe called for 3 lbs, so I suppose I can just weigh the contents of the cans and just do 3 lbs...some of it would be water weight, but I guess the water has absorbed a lot of cherry flavor.

Oh, another thing, does the timing of adding cherries matter if they are sour cherries or sweet cherries? I had to look all over for sour cherries, and I assume there is less sugar in them, and therefore the sacch might not go crazy on them?

Calder and I were basically making the same points, I'd follow the suggestions he gave.

To answer your questions:

Supplication is really sour, so you want to get the bugs in there early to build a good population. As Calder noted, you could've just pitched the 655 from the start as that blend already has sacch/brett/lacto/pedio. As to the recipe's timing of the bugs/brett and Vinnie's comments, I would just guess that his specific process is dialed in for the RR brewhouse and their goal of producing a consistent sour beer. They are likely filtering out all yeast when transferring and then racking into already soured barrels, then blending those barrels at bottling.

You're steaming the oak cubes to sanitize and mellow them a bit. Since we want to replicate barrel aging, after boiling/steaming I like soaking them in wine/spirit for weeks/months before adding (I keep jars of cubes soaking in everything year-round). Anecdotally, I think this contributes more nuanced flavors than just oak + wine directly into the vessel. And you can always add more wine later, if you like.

The type of fruit shouldn't affect the timing of when you add it, but you definitely want sour cherries for the tartness they'll add to this beer I would drain them. You add fruit late in the game so that the sacch is dead and your bugs/brett have already soured your beer to a near-finished product and then will slowly eat the fruit to add complexity.

Hope the beer turns out well!

 

[BryanThompson]

I emailed Vinnie once and he told me that they underpitch to get low attenuation then centrifuge the beer to get out all yeast then move it to the barrels with their critters.

 

[LowNotes]

I emailed Vinnie once and he told me that they underpitch to get low attenuation then centrifuge the beer to get out all yeast then move it to the barrels with their critters.

Interesting...hmmm, well I don't have a centrifuge, and won't be getting one anytime soon...so I guess I will be better off waiting longer before adding the cherries, to minimize the sacc consuming their sugar. So it will be more like:

2 weeks from brew day: Rack to secondary, pitch Brett and bugs, add oak that has soaked in pinot for a week+

6-8 months from brew day: Add cherries, and possibly more pinot.

14-16 months: add more pinot to taste, rack to keg and put under pressure.

18 months: chill, carb, and serve.

 

[BryanThompson]

I've thought about cold crashing and fining to get as much yeast out as possible. He says that the esters produced from this really help.

 

[LowNotes]

I've thought about cold crashing and fining to get as much yeast out as possible. He says that the esters produced from this really help.

Would "fining" be adding gelatin? I do have some...I wanted to start using it, but have yet to need it as the last 3 beers I brewed were all very dark to begin with.

So the idea would basically be to put the bucket in the fridge overnight after 2 weeks in primary, add gelatin (I have heard a tsp in 150* water works) the next day, leave cold for a couple hours, rack it to secondary and return to room temp? And then proceed from there as outlined above, but possibly moving the cherry addition up to two months from brew day, since there will be less yeast?

 

[BryanThompson]

Yes. If you want a quick sour add some JP dregs. Or if you can't get JP out there I can send you a vial of my bugs which has everything under the sun. I would wait on the cherries though. You want the beer to be closer to finished before you add them.

 

[LowNotes]

Okay, so I racked to secondary this weekend after cooling the beer and adding gelatin mid-week. I sort of went halfway between the original recipe I was working off of and what was recommended here.

I decided to hold off on adding the cherries, as it made sense that the sacc would still probably be more active, and I want it to basically go away from here on out. I added the oak, and I went ahead and put 12oz of pinot noir in now. I know it was suggested to add it for taste later, but since it is supposed to replicate aging it in an old wine barrel, I figured giving it some time in the mix might allow flavors to develop as they would in an old barrel. I also don't know if either the brett or the bugs can eat any residual sugars in wine (kind of doubt it since the tend to be dry compared to beer).

I also only pitched the brett at this point. My basic thought process is:

Minimize sacc by cold crashing and adding finings. Pitch brett, but no other sugars, so brett will start to build as it consumes the remaining beer sugars (gravity after primary was 1.020). As it ages, the balance between brett and sacc should shift towards the brett.

For the next addition two months from now, I will add the cherries and the bugs. At this point I am hoping the sacc will be largely dormant/dead, and the brett will have slowly built up. The cherries will give a boost to the brett, and give the bugs some extra stuff to chew on while they grow.

In the end, I am expecting this to help bring more brett flavor out, since it is given preferential treatment and allowed to grow prior to adding cherries. It will have an advantage over the bugs in eating those sugars, but the sacc will be low enough that the bugs can still get a nice meal and add their sour notes.

Oh, also I am using a regular bucket for my secondary, as it seemed like a carboy would be a pain when it came time to add cherries, plus I don't know how much volume they will add. I was going to use a mesh bag to lower the cherries in, so I can pull them out before kegging and minimze the amount of liquid I use. Is there any reason I shouldn't do it this way?

Does this make sense? I appreciate all the input so far, and will definitely have more questions down the line.

 

[sweetcell]

For the next addition two months from now, I will add the cherries and the bugs. At this point I am hoping the sacc will be largely dormant/dead, and the brett will have slowly built up. The cherries will give a boost to the brett, and give the bugs some extra stuff to chew on while they grow.

Oh, also I am using a regular bucket for my secondary, as it seemed like a carboy would be a pain when it came time to add cherries, plus I don't know how much volume they will add. I was going to use a mesh bag to lower the cherries in, so I can pull them out before kegging and minimze the amount of liquid I use. Is there any reason I shouldn't do it this way?

wait on adding the cherries. there is plenty in there for the brett to eat, don't worry about those guys. put cherries in 6-8 weeks before bottling.

bucket = a lot of O2 transfer. could lead to aceto. i wouldn't use a bucket for long-term aging. get a 5 gal carboy. when you're ready for cherries, add them to a 6 or 6.5 gal carboy, then rack the beer on top.

 

[BryanThompson]

When you rack it off the cherries put some cheesecloth on the end of your auto siphon. It will reduce the amount of chunks in the final product.

 

[LowNotes]

When you rack it off the cherries put some cheesecloth on the end of your auto siphon. It will reduce the amount of chunks in the final product.

Cool, thanks for the advice. I will treat it the way I do my dry hops. I usually just run the out-end of the tube from the autosiphon into a mesh bag (I do BIAB, so I use one of those) so any particals that make it through the siphon get caught in the bag, which I can then lift right out.

 

[WissaBrewGuy]

good luck subscribed to see how it goes