Brew Shed - Soliciting Feedback

[nosnhojm20]

I think I have SWMBO sold on a brew shed build. I'll be taking out a massive loan to buy/build this and fence in the yard so that the kids and dogs can play outside without much supervision, freeing me up to brew way more often.

Now I'm soliciting feedback because this is NOT something I can afford to do twice (estimated at $5k based on below). Any feedback is completely welcome, I'm sure some people here have already done something similar and any "if I could do it again" are particularly welcome.

The Plan:

• I'm planning electric and automated. I will be using High Gravity Brewing's cheaper electric control panel (EBC II). This will keep costs relatively low and fit my needs (automating a HERMS mash/HLT). I will be adding a second pump as this will be a single tier build. Actually, all/most electrical equipment will be coming from them, too.
• The shed will have an extra window in the back for a box fan for ventilation pulling the steam out, cracking other windows for cross-vent. I'll be going with a 10x12 shed.
• I want to use 3 19 gallon vessels from AIH to be flexible with 5/10 gallon batches.
• Two pumps to run the rig allowing me to whirlpool the HLT while recirculating, and of course for transferring the wort.
• Professional electrician will be contracted to run the electricity to the shed.
• The sink would only provide water on brewday, and for light rinsing. I am not sure the code in my area but I am not too interested in running drain lines and hooking up to the septic system (other side of house).

The Picture (attached):

• The computers are supposed to be the vessels. The free software doesn't have brew kettles, go figure.
• The green boxes are the kegerator and fermentation chamber.
• I'd like to have a sink that is hooked up to the garden hose. I need to figure out the regs on drainage for my area but am not overly concerned right now. The brown thing on the right is shelving.

The Questions I have off the top of my head:

• Do I have to insulate for the winter/summer? I figure the chest freezers will do alright in the summer, and then fans and heating pads for the winter to regulate the cold.
• This is a shed, it is not insulated. Do I need to put up some kind of sheetrock or other wall material due to the moisture created by the boil? I figure long term this would be a good idea as the shed isn't cheap but I am not sure where to start on this one.
• With the temperature swings for summer/winter are my ideas adequate?
• Any feedback about the vendors I plan on using? This is my first go at electric, I've never actually seen one in action so... yea, any feedback would be helpful.
• Do I need a hood for the ventilation or is the cheapo box fan enough? In a year or two I'd like to install a hood but right now in an effort to keep costs low (cue to laugh as I'm planning on dropping 5-6k already) I'd prefer to hold off.

Thanks in advance, all. It is much appreciated.

 

[Puddlethumper]

Congrats on taking on this project! Sounds like its going to be fun.

I can't address the brewing set-up because I have no experience with anything but my simple gravity rig. But I have done a fair amount of construction and repairs to buildings.

You do need to check the codes on the sink installation but it's usually OK to drain gray water to a lawn or shrub bed. And +1 to hiring an electrician for that part. (Getting that wrong can be dangerous.)

Even here in temperate California I would definitely insulate if possible. And sheetrock on the walls with a good coat of paint. Not only will it stabilize the temperatures making it more comfortable for you both winter and summer, but it will help with sanitation. Open framing provides lots of horizontal surfaces for dust, etc. to accumulate and it would be very difficult to keep clean.

You might also want to consider some sort of protection for the wallboard right behind the sink and the brewing kettles. Plastic laminate panels can work. + there are a ton of other choices out there.

Looks like a great project. If I lived closer I'd offer to help for a beer or two.

Good luck!

 

[nosnhojm20]

Thanks for the reply. I didn't connect the dots in terms of sanitation and the walls. That is a great point.

I am less concerned about my comfort while brewing as I would greatly prefer not to have to heat the whole damn thing all winter or keep it cool all summer, SWMBO would not be a fan of that on-going expense. I am not trying to completely avoid this topic though. Again, any feedback is welcome!

 

[Airplanedoc]

For your drainage, why not install a small collection tank under the sink or sump pit under/outside, throw a sump pump into it and let it pump your waste water via garden hose to a drain at your house. When the brewshed is not in use you could just roll up your hose and hand on the outside of the shed.

Did you consider a porch on the shed? If you entertain outdoors, you might want to consider a bar or tap setup on the outside of the shed, to prevent people from being in (contaminating) your brewspace.

Electrical add 25% to the number of outlets you think you might need. In the future you wont be disappointed.

 

[brew_ny]

Electrical add 25% to the number of outlets you think you might need. In the future you wont be disappointed.

that and good lighting is a must

S_M

 

[northcal]

I've been working on my brew shed for the past year. It's 10x12 like your plan.

I decided to really go all in and make it a little bit more than just a shed. It's framed with 2x6's, insulated with R-19, sheetrocked, painted, etc. Easy to heat with a small electric heater or to cool with a small window AC unit I put in a wall.

I guess, I'd suggest adding more windows to yours. I have 3 and a door, you won't need a vent hood if you have enough windows. I just use a box fan and it blows out the humidity just fine.

Good luck!

 

[nosnhojm20]

Thanks! I appreciate the comments and validation that I'm on track. Do you have your AC/heater running year round or just on brew day?


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[IslandLizard]

I find headroom is important. I'm 6'1 and prefer 8' to ceiling or trusses in working areas; 7' is too low to my taste. Depends on your roof line too.

 

[northcal]

Heated while doing the mudding for the sheet rock, haven't really tested out the AC yet. I'll probably use the AC while I'm messing around in there but I don't think it'll be on 24/7 as I use a chest freezer and a lagering fridge.

You should plan out your drainage early on as well. Squeegee/toweling up water or spilled wort from the floor is no fun! I put in a pit in the concrete pad for a Zoeller pump. The brew area drains into there and liquids and solids up to 1/2" get pumped outside.

 

[CoolZone]

Sounds like a great project!

18 inches of clearance between the sink and the brewing counter (based on the scale in the drawing) may not be enough space for that corner. An option to consider, build your brewing platform like a workbench with locking castors on all four corners. This way you can move it around and when you lock each wheel it will be very stable. (I did that with my two-tier system and am glad I did.) For the wiring, not sure which voltage you plan on using, but your electrician could install an extension cord that would go from the mobile bench to the outlet.

I second the comment by Airplanedoc, install more outlets than you think you will use, because eventually you will use them.

 

[Airplanedoc]

Looking more at your pic. Did you consider using a square utility sink, instead of a dual basin kitchen sink? I find utility sinks more useful for washing kegs, buckets, carboys and other large items vs a kitchen sink. They are easier on your wallet.

Also have you considered running water over to where you brew similar to a faucet over a stove similar to this.

 

[Epimetheus]

I would not put a window behind the vessels

• The vessel would block the light. and
• for ventilation, a through-the-wall fan is more effective
• a fan is less expensive.
• later you can add a hood

You are essentially building a kitchen or a maple syrup shed, use this link for estimating kitchen ventilation reqirements. You could downsize a bit to a sensible level.

Plastic laminate behind the brew vessels sounds good. It is flammable, but you are going electric. Your choice.

I would put the door in the center of the long wall, flanked by windows. That would give a balanced appearance to please your spouse, and more light and ventilation to please you. The windows opposite the vent fan would cause the fan to sweep the whole space.

I would also plan on a window either over the fermentation chamber or over the sink or both. You would not believe how much better it feels to get natural light. An alternative is a staggered roof line, one side steeper than the other to give room for 1ft high windows along the ridge.

 

[Epimetheus]

I find headroom is important. I'm 6'1 and prefer 8' to ceiling or trusses in working areas; 7' is too low to my taste. Depends on your roof line too.

I live in a house with 7' 6" ceilings, built in the '70s to supposedly save cost and heating. It does neither. It feels crowded. I would go with full 8' high.

 

[nosnhojm20]

Airplanedoc - Freakin' genius with the pump to an indoor sink idea. I love it. With the porch... I don't have the space. It will actually sit about 10 feet from the patio (we live on a hill), but good call on the contamination aspect. I could just roll the keezer to door way though if need be. The picture you posted almost gave me a gasm. I will have to put some serious thought into that. I guess I could run a T from sink to that, too, right? Keep in mind all water coming in will be from a garden hose... I have no idea what that will look like in real life. I am not committed to two basin sink, I think you might be right to have a larger utility sink that will actually be smaller than the two basin. I use a two basin now and like that I have a "clean" and "dirty" side, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter.

brew_ny - Lighting. That is a good call. I don't rememeber what the shed looks like inside, but I would ideally like to add a rail across the top to add some track lights, possibly create some more storage space up there, too. (editUltimately I think I will go with 4 windows for light/ventilation. Ideally I will keep the doors open during the brew session.

CoolZone - Good call. I am not married to that exact build. The sink in the picture was just what was available in the mock up, I'll definitely keep that in mind though. As far as the table being on casters, that is also a good call. Will probably want that for moving it around for cleaning at the least. As far as outlets I have no idea how many I want/need. I haven't gotten that far. I think it will depend on the what the electrician says. I will be probably 20 feet from the interior outlets, worst case scenario I suppose I can run an extension cord on brew day for supplementary lighting.

Epimetheus - The shed company can install windows wherever, I could ask them to raise it higher. I do like the idea of a fan and a DIY hood though, long term less moisture left lingering would be best. I appreciate the link, good looks. I am looking at either of these two sheds. Again, all windows/doors can be placed wherever I want. I like the first one more, I like the idea of a bit of an overhang in case it ever rains and I want to crack windows/doors.


Additional question: Do you think heating the inside of the ferm/keezer will be enough for below freezing winters?

 

[Airplanedoc]

Water in Plumbing
For the line in I would just put a hose bib on the outside of the shed, labeled "In" hook a hose from your house to the shed and open your valve. Then on the inside just run your water lines as you would in a house copper, or PEX. ---Just Tee over your line in to the sink to the brew area. You might also want to think about a future water filter station even if you don't install it at this time. As long as you don't have both lines open inside you should have sufficient pressure,and volume.

Drainage -- I had suggested this concept to someone else in another thread. He was looking at floor/cooler - ferm chamber/ sink drains to a under floor drain line. Which then ran to a sump pit in the ground next to/or under the brewshed. Then using a sump pump to pump discharge out via hose to a drain or away from the shed. The other idea I came up with was to use a rubbermaid storage tub under the sink, with the sump pump and float installed in the tub. Then use PVC to plumb a discharge line from the pump to the outside wall of the shed, and have a roll of garden hose hanging one the outside you could just unroll when brewing. This sounds like it might be more suitable for your situation.

Lighting -- If you typically brew during the day, you might want to consider a skylite of some sort in your shed. This would minimize your electrical load and line in requirements. Your e-brewery will already require a costly line in.

 

[nosnhojm20]

Yea, I still need to figure out the code regarding the drainage. It is on a hill that is full of shrubbery (cue Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail here), it would be excellent to be able to let it run off there for watering. I've seen a bunch of threads do similar drainage, but you are the first to nail the issue and solution of how to bring it back inside.

I'll definitely keep the idea of a skylight in mind. I will have to see if the shed company can handle it or what the roof looks like. The shed is solid and quality, I just forget what the inside/roof looks like as it has been about a year since I gave 'er a gander. What do you think I"m looking at in terms of cost of running electricity out? I haven't had an electrician look at it yet, but am getting anxious to build an estimate into the budget.

 

[Airplanedoc]

I have no clue on electrical cost, I generally do my own, I have a friend who is a retired electrician, who can talk me thru or help with anything I can't handle. The inside the shed wiring is not to difficult, and you could save some cost wiring the shed yourself and just having a electrician wire the from your house to the shed. You will certainly save money if you know a electrician and have him do the work vs hiring someone from a electrical contractor.

 

[nosnhojm20]

Thanks for the heads up. I clearly don't know this stuff from my elbow. I have a buddy who can do electrical work but wouldn't trust him to run it from the breaker. Maybe we can knock out a bunch of it and then have the contractor double check it.


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[IslandLizard]

I hate the way "hose water" tastes. I wouldn't brew with it, even from those RV hoses. PEX or some other taste-free poly is the way to go. Are you digging a trench for water and electric?

The electrical contractor may eat 1/4 of your budget without a blink. Whatever you can do yourself or with help from a savvy friend the more you have left.
Do you have at least 50-60 Amps left on your main panel? If not, you'll need a 2nd service. That's not talking about AC or a heat pump.

I am actually looking at a similar setup, but envision a larger shed, as the other side will be a Jacuzzi room. There are a lot of decisions to make, and you better do it right the first time. If you only heat or cool when you're using it, you can keep the utilities cost down. But when you use it, you run all the electric needed at once. Insulation will help a lot.

 

[IslandLizard]

Let the electrician do the mains connecting. You can run the wires, dig a trench, put in conduit. That takes most of the time.

 

[Puddlethumper]

You might check with your local brew club. If it's been around a while you can bet someone there has done something like you're planning. Their experience might also get you connected with an electrician who would be willing to work with you. And +1 to running as much of the wiring as you can yourself.

But you'll almost certainly need and want to get a permit to tie into your electrical panel. It would really suck to have your house catch fire from improper wiring and then find you'd voided your homeowner's insurance with a bootleg wiring job.


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[nosnhojm20]

There isn't a snow ball's chance of running water to it. The solid concrete patio is standing in the way. While SWMBO is a fantastic individual there is no chance of tearing that up.

As far as the panel, I have no idea. It is her house, I only pay rent and brew in it, I've never had the need to look (or the knowledge to know what to look for).

 

[nosnhojm20]

Puddlethumper, good call. It is funny, I'm actually the VP of the club know of no one who has an electrical rig. I'll have to bring it up at the next meeting.

 

[northcal]

For running wire or water lines through concrete, you can rent a concrete saw for a couple of hours. Just cut out a narrow trench a few inches wide. Run your stuff and seal up with some bagged concrete.

The walk behind saws are quick and EZ:

There isn't a snow ball's chance of running water to it. The solid concrete patio is standing in the way. While SWMBO is a fantastic individual there is no chance of tearing that up.

As far as the panel, I have no idea. It is her house, I only pay rent and brew in it, I've never had the need to look (or the knowledge to know what to look for).

 

[nosnhojm20]

I'll keep that in the back of my mind. Thanks!


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[Puddlethumper]

Wiring is really no big trick. Just keep in mind that "Long John Silver was a white man."

White wires to silver colored screws. Black wires go to brass colored screws. And green wires always are ground wires and go to green screws. I would run 12 ga. wires to your plugs and 14 ga.wires to your lights. Let the electrician make the final connections to your panel. Buy a "How to do it book" at Home Depot on wiring. Its really not all that hard if you can grasp the fundamentals of how electricity flows. Outlets will draw more current than lights.

And another +1 to the advice to install double the outlets you think you'll need. They cost about a buck or two to install and if you find you installed more than you needed will add that couple bucks to the build. If, however, you need more outlets they can be a major expense and PITA to install after the build is done.

 

[nosnhojm20]

That's a great point. Thanks. I've got some calls in to electricians to come out to give estimated. I luckily work for a public agency and the guy who is in charge of contracts vetted a bunch for me. I'll keep all posted regarding "all the things".


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[Haussenbrau]

I would change the size of the shed from 10X12 to a 12X12. Once it is built you are stuck with the size. The extra two feet will be used. Come over to my house and see my brew room and get a perspective of the size. I have the same suggestion about treating your waste as gray water and use it to water plants (Hop Bines). I would insulate and would use bead board instead of sheet rock.

You could go to Harbor Freight and get a portable exhaust fans that have elephant trunk connections for the inlet and outlet.

 

[Doed]

Additional question: Do you think heating the inside of the ferm/keezer will be enough for below freezing winters?

I have my ferm chamber in an uninsulated shed and this past winter it was below zero a few times, I had no problems with frozen beer.

I use an old hair dryer as my fermentation heater.

 

[Doed]

You could also go with FRP for the walls. The stuff is water proof and cuts with a utility knife. Sheetrock is most likely cheaper though.

 

[nosnhojm20]

Haussenbrau - PM sent!

Doed - great to know about the freezer. I've read where the oil can coagulate during the winter which is an issue if it is running, I guess it goes back to it's "normal" state when thawed. Great to know, great to know. Thanks. That eases my mind a lot. I'll also looking to the wall option, a quick search showed it was more expensive, yes, but not completely ridiculous either.

I've got a quote request for a 100a panel install and 40 ft of wiring to be run (trench dug myself), I'll post the quote price here for others input/reference. Turns out a 100a panel is basically the same price as a 50a, so why not go bigger for the "just in case" factor I figure.

 

[illinoisbrassman]

Something else to think about is to make sure your wire is in a PVC (grey) electrical conduit when you run your underground wire. The larger the conduit the better. Larger size will make it easier to remove your service line should you ever decide to move. ( I assume you would be taking your brew shed with you). Also think about running a smaller conduit next to the main power conduit, never know when you might want to add speakers, network cable, or anything else to your brew shed in the future. A wired connection will be faster than wireless that far from the house. Got to stay in touch with homebrewtalk somehow.

When running your conduit, pull or blow some string thru, so you can pull a line later time. If your electrician is going to run the line, this will save you some time.(Money).

 

[Doed]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is very good advice. I wish I had ran an extra pvc pipe when I ran electric to my shed.

Use a vacuum to pull the string through the pvc pipe while someone else is feeding it into the other end. The vacuum works like a champ.