Brew day but no Yeast!

[Banter]

I have a window of opportunity to brew in the next couple days but i wont be getting my yeast until the weekend. a 5 hour window rarely pops up for me and i need to capitalize. My idea is this. I am going to mash in on wednesday night and create my wort. I am then going to chill it down and keg it. Put some CO2 on and purge the air then stick it in my fridge. when the yeast gets here i will make up my starter. Once the yeast is ready i am going to dispense the wort from the keg at a decent enough pressure to aerate into the fermentor...throw in yeast and then its business as usual.

Can anyone see any floors in this plan. Basically i am storing my Wort for approx 5 days under CO2 before fermentation. Can it still oxidise slightly? will it effect the flavour at all? I have brewed plenty of beers but i have one strict process and this is not it. Has anyone tried this or something similar?

 

[Qhrumphf]

I would be less worried about oxidation than I would be about infection. If your sanitation is absolutely top notch you might be ok, but remember that boiling is not sterilizing (as in it's not a 100% kill rate unless done under pressure), and anything that survives the boil, plus gets in there from cooling and transfer, might have time to get a foothold before it could be outcompeted by yeast. Normally yeast would consume all the nutrients and food sources rapidly before contaminants can multiply meaning trace microbes aren't an issue. But a few day headstart (even cold under CO2), might be enough time to be an issue.

 

[noggins]

Sounds similar to no-chill brewing:
1. Siphon hot wort into sanitized keg
2. Seal keg, flip upside down for a min or two to sterilize top
3. Leave at ferm temp until you get your yeast
4. Pitch yeast directly into keg, attach blowoff tube to gas in post

 

[d3track]

That just doesn't sound like a good idea...wild fermentation maybe. This is why you should always have a couple packets of dry yeast.

 

[OmmeGerd]

If you have any bottle conditioned beers you could try to make a starter from the dregs.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

I'm not afraid to let you try it. Keeping it cold should prevent wild fermentation. Let us know how it comes out. Oh and while your at it buy a extra packet of dry yeast for last minute brewing.

 

[Bellybuster]

Yup, go for no chill, do it all the time.
Fill well sanitized keg with wort right from the boil kettle and top off with co2.
No need to chill. Turning upside down for a while may be a good thing too??

As far as bacteria or spores able to survive boiling....well......if you gotta worry about that you've got bigger issues than when to pitch yeast

 

[kombat]

Sounds similar to no-chill brewing:
1. Siphon hot wort into sanitized keg
2. Seal keg, flip upside down for a min or two to sterilize top
3. Leave at ferm temp

4. Buy new keg

Ever take an empty 2L pop bottle, rinse it out with hot water, then seal it back up with the cap and throw it in the garbage/recycling?

Science!

Kegs are designed to hold large amounts of positive pressure. I have no idea how their rated for vacuums, but I wouldn't be willing to risk one of my own kegs finding out. Your suggestion might work, or it might cause is keg to crumple. Who feels like gambling?

 

[eric19312]

Sounds similar to no-chill brewing:
1. Siphon hot wort into sanitized keg
2. Seal keg, flip upside down for a min or two to sterilize top
3. Leave at ferm temp until you get your yeast
4. Pitch yeast directly into keg, attach blowoff tube to gas in post

Dont use a plastic autosiphon in step 1 of this procedure...

I would just pump the near boiling wort into the keg. Fill it as full as possible. Don't worry about a little bit of O2. Do the flip to sanitize the top.

I would use the autosiphon to get the wort out of my keg and into a fermenter when my yeast is ready. Lots of splashing cause you do want to oxygenate it now.

 

[Aristotelian]

When you get your yeast, why not re-boil, just for a couple minutes to kill anything?

 

[noggins]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=137209

 

[Banter]

Firstly, thank you all for your replies. I have to look into no chill. That sounds very interesting. I wouldn't be worried about external pressure as I can regulate that easily with my co2 tank. My first thought was actually warping my o rings but no one brought that up so perhaps not an issue?

As to sanitation. I hear this a lot in the forums. So much so that perhaps it has created an OCD with me. In 3 years of brewing I have never had a contaminated beer. Perhaps I'll get my come upance here. I live in Singapore where it's rarely below 31 degrees so I have had issues with chilling fast enough and often leave in the fermenter in the fridge overnight and never had an issue. But 5 days...well we'll see.

Reboil? I have to think more about that one...it would rule at whirl pooling but i didn't plan it this time anyway.... I think the encouragement out ways the warning but all views appreciated. I am going to press on and will let you know how it goes. If it is fine I might try a split batch with one left for a while then reboiled but that depends on the first run. Noggin I'll get to that link now.
Thanks everyone!

 

[IslandLizard]

I don't see a reboil being necessary if you filled your keg with boiling wort and seal it. Flip over to sanitize the top area, and flip back on its foot. Remove the gas post and drape a 2-3x folded over Starsaned washcloth over it as a filter to allow air to be sucked in while it cools. Keep it wet/damp.

Now what kind of yeast are you getting? Liquid or dry? Liquid yeast needs a starter, which takes another 24 hours, or longer.

Notes:
Don't splash the hot wort.

 

[ACbrewer]

When you get your yeast, why not re-boil, just for a couple minutes to kill anything?

Read up on how to make sour beers.

But the short answer is, if he gets an infection, it will produce off flavors, even after killing the infection, the products of it will still be there - still have off flavors.

 

[soccerdad]

This is why you should always have a couple packets of dry yeast.

Or save some yeast in the fridge as is detailed here ... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=519995

 

[Banter]

Great link noggins. Thanks. Soccer dad...yeah totally right but have just moved house and my limited yeast store couldn't take the heat....on that note...I always find my washed yeast from previous beers makes a better tasting beer if similar to the previous batch. So this problem shouldn't arise again. Thanks again all!

 

[Bellybuster]

4. Buy new keg

Ever take an empty 2L pop bottle, rinse it out with hot water, then seal it back up with the cap and throw it in the garbage/recycling?

Science!

Kegs are designed to hold large amounts of positive pressure. I have no idea how their rated for vacuums, but I wouldn't be willing to risk one of my own kegs finding out. Your suggestion might work, or it might cause is keg to crumple. Who feels like gambling?

no gamble at all, I've done it a few times with no issue. I also do it in sealed plastic speidels with no drawing in of the sides. Of course its possible my kegs leak a vacuum, I don't know.

 

[RmikeVT]

Some of these no-chill crazies (j/k I've no chilled before) will take the boiling hot wort and go straight to winpak's and keep them without pitching yeast for weeks. I'm not sure a keg is a great idea because of the vacuum it creates. Might want to hook up to CO2 and leave at 2psi or something.

In addition, I don't think any of the bugs that spoil beer live much past 160, so if you have spores surviving a 212 degree boil, I think you might have bigger problems.

 

[kombat]

I don't think any of the bugs that spoil beer live much past 160, so if you have spores surviving a 212 degree boil, I think you might have bigger problems.

Clostridium botulinum.

"Temperatures well above 100°C (212°F) are needed to destroy the spore."

They can't survive in beer, but we're talking about wort here, not beer. Wort doesn't offer the alcoholic, low-oxygen, low-pH protection that beer does.

 

[JonM]

Clostridium botulinum.

"Temperatures well above 100°C (212°F) are needed to destroy the spore."

They can't survive in beer, but we're talking about wort here, not beer. Wort doesn't offer the alcoholic, low-oxygen, low-pH protection that beer does.

Very good point.

 

[soccerdad]

I definitely had these symptoms the last time I drank 16 homebrews in 2 hours .. probably infected.

Symptoms include:

Double vision
Droopy eye lids
Difficulty speaking and swallowing
Difficulty with breathing
Paralysis

 

[RmikeVT]

Clostridium botulinum.

"Temperatures well above 100°C (212°F) are needed to destroy the spore."

They can't survive in beer, but we're talking about wort here, not beer. Wort doesn't offer the alcoholic, low-oxygen, low-pH protection that beer does.

Very good point.

I was aware of botulism but I was also aware of how rare and unlikely a botulism infection is. There are something like 20 cases a year in the US. Although, rare it is not something you want to mess around with.

I found an article on the exact topic. The conclusion being, an overnight chill and pitch is probably fine, a couple days before pitching is probably fine, keeping it below 36 degrees reduces the risk even more, but storing wort fermented past a "couple" days increases the risk.

This is from the beer and wine journal:
http://beerandwinejournal.com/botulism/

"Risk Assessment

The risk of botulism from storing wort for an extended period of time is low. However, the risk is real, and the consequences are severe, perhaps fatal. The good news is that it is easy to avoid the problem. I would advise no-chill brewers to pitch their worts as soon as is feasible, and there should be no problem. It takes awhile for the bacteria to grow, so overnight chilling and a few days of sitting around should be fine. Beyond that, it is hard to say. The risk will always be small, but that needs to be weighed against the large, negative consequences."

I think OP is ok letting the wort set for a few days before pitching. To my prior comment, I would not recommend storing wort for weeks in your closet with out properly treating the wort, which involves methods beyond what most home brewers are capable of, 20psi and 240* F for a period of time. I was simply presenting something anecdotal information I had read. It turns out that there is a company that sells pre-packaged wort that you can store for weeks and they probably use best practices to prevent botulism. I'm not sure home brewers practicing packaging and storing themselves for weeks.