Brett in secondary for a 10% ABV beer?

[Birrus]

Hello folks, will inoculating a 10% beer after fermentation with Brett work? I brewed and kegged a Scottish Quad (a wee heavy kit I bought and fermented with Belgian yeast) in January, and 7 months later I still had 4 gallons of it. It wasn't bad at all, but Florida and 10% ABV beer somehow do not mix. I took the keg out of the keezer and up to room temperature, and pitched a pack of 1 week old Omega Yeast "All the Bretts". It's been a month and I've seen no activity whatsoever. Is it safe to assume the high alcohol killed all my bugs? Or do they still have a chance and need more time to thrive? Should I introduce some oxygen (the horror), to give 'em a push? I appreciate all the help and thank you in advance.

 

[Funky Frank]

Probably didn’t kill it but you are really close to it’s tolerance. If you want it to do something, I’d suggest adding a half gallon of 1.030 wort. Or something to that effect.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I think you need to wait, 10% is nothing for brett, some strains can go as high as 15% and I think 10% although a hard environment, it's still good for brett to grow, just give them some time

 

[Funky Frank]

Omega rates the blend at 11% and most of their individual isolates are rated at 10% so my bet is that most of the cells in the blend actually tap out at 10.

https://omegayeast.com/yeast/bretts-and-blends/all-the-bretts

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Omega rates the blend at 11% and most of their individual isolates are rated at 10% so my bet is that most of the cells in the blend actually tap out at 10.

https://omegayeast.com/yeast/bretts-and-blends/all-the-bretts

Yes, but this is only the ideal range, we all know you can go way higher with any yeast if the wort has the appropriate conditions

I think that the best option is to wait, rather than "watering" down a finished beer

 

[Funky Frank]

In “normal” conditions it can deal with about 11% but I suspect this is not the “normal” case that the yeast lab was considering. It’s not watering down a finished beer, it’s adjusting a beer that has just become a sour. In my experience, making that adjustment is reasonable.

Waiting to see what it does is also perfectly reasonable. The Brett is hardy so if you wait and it doesn’t do as much as you had hoped, then you can try adding some low OG wort later.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

In “normal” conditions it can deal with about 11% but I suspect this is not the “normal” case that the yeast lab was considering. It’s not watering down a finished beer, it’s adjusting a beer that has just become a sour. In my experience, making that adjustment is reasonable.

Waiting to see what it does is also perfectly reasonable. The Brett is hardy so if you wait and it doesn’t do as much as you had hoped, then you can try adding some low OG wort later.

I think it would vary depending on the other factors present in the wort, or in these case the beer, if even the alcohol is a bit high, if the beer is still welcoming for the brett, it will give it character over time

IMO the pitch rate is too low to expect a super fast Brett character presence, and if we consider the ABV, it's even harder, I think it will need at least 2 or 3 more months of conditioning in the keg

The OP can always take the shortcut and add wort to try and make a more rich environment for the Brett

 

[Birrus]

Thank you all very much for your input. I apologise it took me a while to reply, but I was out of commission for a few days. At this point I think I'll follow OldDogBrewing advice, and will leave it alone for a few months. I'll add the bottle dregs from every sour I drink from now on, in an effort to help the Brett do its thing. If nothing has changed after that period, I'll then add more Brett and some low gravity wort, as Funky Frank suggested. I'll post the results in a few months, if we are still around.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Thank you all very much for your input. I apologise it took me a while to reply, but I was out of commission for a few days. At this point I think I'll follow OldDogBrewing advice, and will leave it alone for a few months. I'll add the bottle dregs from every sour I drink from now on, in an effort to help the Brett do its thing. If nothing has changed after that period, I'll then add more Brett and some low gravity wort, as Funky Frank suggested. I'll post the results in a few months, if we are still around.

Is the beer highly hopped? If not, you might end up with a sour dark beer, which not always ends well, as any mixed ferm sour dregs will at least contain pedio or lacto

If it's roasty and dark, I would avoid the risc of acid production, if you think it can taste good, maybe you can add dregs, I'm assuming your beer is low in IBUs as Scottish beer tends to be low in IBUs

I think some pedio and lacto strains can survive in wort (or beer) with up to 30-35 IBUs, the lacto in Jolly Pumpkin's sours is famous for souring at high IBUs

 

[Birrus]

Is the beer highly hopped? If not, you might end up with a sour dark beer, which not always ends well, as any mixed ferm sour dregs will at least contain pedio or lacto

If it's roasty and dark, I would avoid the risc of acid production, if you think it can taste good, maybe you can add dregs, I'm assuming your beer is low in IBUs as Scottish beer tends to be low in IBUs

I think some pedio and lacto strains can survive in wort (or beer) with up to 30-35 IBUs, the lacto in Jolly Pumpkin's sours is famous for souring at high IBUs

Thank you for that. The beer is dark, but not roasty nor highly hopped, as you very well assumed. I actually dialed down the Roasted Barley when I decided to go the Belgian route for the Wee beer, and according to calculations, the IBU were around 30 originally, (and 8 months of ageing most likely have made a dent in them as well). I think it might work, if the pedio and lacto strains survive, of course.

 

[sweetcell]

I'll add the bottle dregs from every sour I drink from now on, in an effort to help the Brett do its thing. If nothing has changed after that period, I'll then add more Brett and some low gravity wort, as Funky Frank suggested.

i wouldn't add the dregs to every bottle you drink from now on - that's a lot of opening up the fermentor and letting oxygen in. instead, i would have a sour "bottle party" - drink a few sours in one evening, collect those dregs (maybe even make a weak wort with extract and use that to "rinse" out the bottles into a sealed jar/container) and pitch all at once. too much oxygen can lead to all sorts of nasty flavors.

i brett'ed a ~12% barleywine with a multi-brett blend and it was amazing. took over a year for the brett to do its thing. worth the wait.

if you pitched All The Bretts then you don't need to add any more. you can if you want, but not required. you've got a minimum of 10 strains in there.

 

[mashpaddled]

I wouldn't worry about it--the ABV ranges are safe ranges given by the lab to ensure you have decent activity within a reasonable period of time. As long as brett has food and nutrients I would not worry about it. Brett often works slow getting started so you may not see much airlock activity and it may be months or never to see a pellicle. Give it a taste in a few months and it will almost certainly show signs of developing brett flavor.

 

[Birrus]

Thank you all. Sweetcell, the result of your barleywine gives me hope. It looks like all I have to do is wait. Btw, I had a sour party all by myself, and dumped dregs from 4 bottles of Petrus Oud Bruin in there, . Let's see what comes out of it.

 

[twd000]

I'm planning something similar with a finished English Barleywine. 1.105 down to 1.024 when it was all said and done. 60 IBUs. It's been sitting for three months in the keg I fermented in. Was thinking of bottling half and pitching brett cultures in the other half to see what develops.

My basement varies from 55-65 year round. I can also pressurize the keg if that would help

Which conditions and brett cultures would give me the best results?

 

[jrgtr42]

OP - have you had any updates on your experiment?
FWIW, I'm in the camp that it needs time.
I have a sour, based on Russian River Consecration I've done a few times.
It's 1.082 OG, FG after primary 1.017, giving about 8.9%. I then pitch bug blends, and let them do their thing.
It takes about a year in secondary for it to finish up.

 

[twd000]

OP - have you had any updates on your experiment?
FWIW, I'm in the camp that it needs time.
I have a sour, based on Russian River Consecration I've done a few times.
It's 1.082 OG, FG after primary 1.017, giving about 8.9%. I then pitch bug blends, and let them do their thing.
It takes about a year in secondary for it to finish up.

what temperature and pressure is your fermenter sitting at during the year? My basement is 55-65 but I'm wondering if that will slow down the brett culture development

 

[jrgtr42]

what temperature and pressure is your fermenter sitting at during the year? My basement is 55-65 but I'm wondering if that will slow down the brett culture development

it's right about there for temp. I don't keep pressuized - |I'll leave an airlock on the first few months them switch to a solid bung.

 

[sweetcell]

so i have another entry for our collection of brett'ed barleywine… sort of.

back in early spring i bought a 15-gallon whiskey barrel and ran an imperial milk stout through it. everything went great, only complaint is that it's under-carbonated. i added wine yeast at bottling but looks like the ABV was already too high for the yeast to kick in. still very drinkable.

for round 2, i made an enlgish barleywine. my fermentation cooling failed at one point so temps got higher than desired, resulting in some esters. my hopes were that some would age out in the barrel. after a few months in the wooden cask, i noticed that the star san-filled air lock had bubbles. a quick hydrometer check confirmed that gravity had dropped 6 points since i racked it - there was something alive in the barrel, further attenuating the beer. my original plan was to bottle 10 gallons and age the last 5 gallons on brett C, but this unexpected visitor upped the timeline and scope: i pitched the brett C into the (entire) barrel. my thought/hope is that the brett C will take over and cover up whatever contaminant is in there. it's entirely likely that uninvited guest is brett, could have been picked up in any number of ways in my brewery. i wouldn't be surprised if i screwed up by accidently using a piece of sour-beer equipment like an auto-siphon.

so i'm going to give it about 6 months then start checking again. 15 gallons is a lot of bourbon barrel-aged barleywine to deal with... but i shall soldier on. round 3 for the barrel will be the start of a sour solera...

 

[sweetcell]

My basement varies from 55-65 year round. I can also pressurize the keg if that would help

Which conditions and brett cultures would give me the best results?

what temperature and pressure is your fermenter sitting at during the year? My basement is 55-65 but I'm wondering if that will slow down the brett culture development

brett will do just fine at those temps. it will work slower than it would at higher temps but the benefit is that bacteria and other contaminants are slowed down even more at those temps - so brett will essentially have the playground to itself. i remember hearing that Vinnie aims for 60*F for RR's barrel-aged sours.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I'm planning something similar with a finished English Barleywine. 1.105 down to 1.024 when it was all said and done. 60 IBUs. It's been sitting for three months in the keg I fermented in. Was thinking of bottling half and pitching brett cultures in the other half to see what develops.

My basement varies from 55-65 year round. I can also pressurize the keg if that would help

Which conditions and brett cultures would give me the best results?

Brett B is most likely the one you're familiar the most, horse blanket, earthy and so on.

Then you have Brett L, which really is a strain of Brett B, a bit more fruity.

Brett C is another option, I used it for a Tripel and so far so good, hay like notes and some fruit notes, but it's more expressive in the nose than on the palate.

Brett B is probably the best option as that's what's in most commercial bretted beers you may have tried before, but, take into account that you're sitting at 1.024, bottling a non stabilised beer over 1.008 is considered dangerous among lambic brewers so to reach a safe FG you're looking at a year or more ageing time, unless you go the stabilising route

 

[OldDogBrewing]

brett will do just fine at those temps. it will work slower than it would at higher temps but the benefit is that bacteria and other contaminants are slowed down even more at those temps - so brett will essentially have the playground to itself. i remember hearing that Vinnie aims for 60*F for RR's barrel-aged sours.

I think most temp controlled barrel rooms sit around 16°C so yeah, it's more than probable that RR aims for 60 (this like 15 something C)

 

[twd000]

Thanks for the tip on the Brett bruxellencis

As far as stabilizing, my plan is to leave it in the keg at cellar temp and just pour samples until the flavor develops, then move to the kegerator and serve Brett barleywine on draft!

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Thanks for the tip on the Brett bruxellencis

As far as stabilizing, my plan is to leave it in the keg at cellar temp and just pour samples until the flavor develops, then move to the kegerator and serve Brett barleywine on draft!

Then if you keep it cold enough once the beer is where you want, it should work for you.

 

[sweetcell]

Brett B is most likely the one you're familiar the most, horse blanket, earthy and so on.

Then you have Brett L, which really is a strain of Brett B, a bit more fruity.

Brett C is another option, I used it for a Tripel and so far so good, hay like notes and some fruit notes, but it's more expressive in the nose than on the palate.

Brett B is probably the best option as that's what's in most commercial brett'ed beers you may have tried before, but, take into account that you're sitting at 1.024, bottling a non stabilised beer over 1.008 is considered dangerous among lambic brewers so to reach a safe FG you're looking at a year or more ageing time, unless you go the stabilising route

aside: i don't believe that we can generalize quite so much anymore, at least not for brett B. Brettanomyces bruxellensis is a species, same as Saccharomyces cerevisiae. so just like you can't attribute a single set of characteristics to sacch (RE: chico vs. any belgian), you can't describe brett brux as a homogeneous whole. check out the flavor descriptors for single-strain brett offerings at the Yeast Bay:
- "lemon/pineapple, with a restrained funkiness"
- "tart tropical fruit ester profile reminiscent of SweeTarts"
- "mild tartness and soft funk with a solid backbone of tropical fruit esters (papaya, guava, pineapple, guinep)"
- "complex tropical fruit that is dominated by pineapple with a noticeable earthiness"
- "delicate mixed fruit cocktail character that touches the palate just enough to let you know it's there but doesn't overtake the character of the beer, and exhibits a very restrained but pleasant earthiness."
- "complex and multi-dimensional Brettanomyces character (...) a mixed dark berry quality with earthy undertones.

those are all from different strains of brett B. as was rightly pointed out, for some time Brett L ("Brettanomyces lambicus") was assumed to be a different species than brett B given how different it tasted, but genetic testing has confirmed it's brux.

the barnyard/horse blanket/earthy/etc. characteristics traditionally associated with brett brux is likely due to the prevalence of the Orval strain of brett b, which for the longest time was the only widely-available strain of brett available to homebrewers. the brett B from White Labs and Wyeast are Orval.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

aide: i don't believe that we can generalize quite so much anymore, at least not for brett B. Brettanomyces bruxellensis is a species, same as Saccharomyces cerevisiae. so just like you can't attribute a single set of characteristics to sacch (RE: chico vs. any belgian), you can't describe brett brux as a homogeneous whole. check out the flavor descriptors for single-strain brett offerings at the Yeast Bay:
- "lemon/pineapple, with a restrained funkiness"
- "tart tropical fruit ester profile reminiscent of SweeTarts"
- "mild tartness and soft funk with a solid backbone of tropical fruit esters (papaya, guava, pineapple, guinep)"
- "complex tropical fruit that is dominated by pineapple with a noticeable earthiness"
- "delicate mixed fruit cocktail character that touches the palate just enough to let you know it's there but doesn't overtake the character of the beer, and exhibits a very restrained but pleasant earthiness."
- "complex and multi-dimensional Brettanomyces character (...) a mixed dark berry quality with earthy undertones.

those are all from different strains of brett B. as was rightly pointed out, for some time Brett L ("Brettanomyces lambicus") was assumed to be a different species than brett B given how different it tasted, but genetic testing has confirmed it's brux.

the barnyard/horse blanket/earthy/etc. characteristics traditionally associated with brett brux is likely due to the prevalence of the Orval strain of brett b, which for the longest time was the only widely-available strain of brett available to homebrewers. the brett B from White Labs and Wyeast are Orval.

The Orval strain is the more available one, unless you have access to other labs, chances are you're getting this strain when ordering Brett B.
I don't have access to maniacal, Escarpment, Omega, The Yeast Bay, etc (I did had in the past if I bought them from the UK but not anymore as they aren't in the EU anymore) as it's the case of most homebrewers outside the UK or US.

But I did point out that Brett L is really Brett B, as most people are likely able to get Brett L from White Labs, but you're right, Brett B is a family of different strains, one I particularly like is the Trois Vrai which is again a type of Brett B and it's wildly different from the Orval Strain

 

[killsurfcity]

If you're looking for acidity, you want lacto/pedio, brett does not produce much if any acidity under normal conditions. That said, I've made brett barleywines that went up to 15%, but I don't use commercial pitches.

 

[Birrus]

Hey guys, just a quick update for those interested. After 5 months, I measured gravity last week, and it is already @ 1.006; I don't think I ever mentioned the original Wee Heavy ended up @ 1.019. A nice white pellicle is covering the surface of the beer, and it smells wonderful. As far as taste goes, I believe it will benefit from a few more months of ageing to gain complexity. Oh, and it is not sour at all, in spite of all the sour dregs I dumped in it .
Sweetcell, reading about your " brett'ed barleywines" collection makes me drool. Cheers!!!

 

[sweetcell]

Oh, and it is not sour at all, in spite of all the sour dregs I dumped in it .

the high ABV and hops likely prevented any souring. lacto doesn't like hops, and isn't very alcohol tolerant - i think it starts to crap out around 6 or 7% ABV. most pedio that i've seen has a listed alcohol tolerance around 10%. assuming that the barleywine was already at or around 10%, plus the brett driving it up even higher (pedio is even slower than brett), would make it unlikely that the bacteria ever got a chance to really get going.