lehr
Well-Known Member
I see the electric brewery guy does not use the little breakers in his control panel but others do, what are the pros and cons of this arrangement ?
Thanks,
Pat
Thanks,
Pat
I see the electric brewery guy does not use the little breakers in his control panel but others do, what are the pros and cons of this arrangement ?
Thanks,
Pat
Thanks Augie for the words of wisdom, bling is over rated, form over function
like my junk
It gets to a point where its just for bling and impractical.... fuses dont look as sophisticated so arent used often here it seems... then again you have a lot of people going overkill on everything it seems.. We all like bling and bragging rights. and some try to top others...
As far as element wiring, even though the soow 12/3 wire is rated at 25amps up to 600v and the cable run is usually pretty short, many people suggest to others they need 10/3 so the more expensive impractical 10/3 has become the size of choice for both 19 amp 4500w elements and 23amp max 5500w elements.... even though it barely fits through the connector collars and it not very flexible Why? IMO many of us are just copying what we see out of fear and ignorance without asking the right questions why and if its really needed. I questioned this recently in another thread were someone complained that the wire barely fit through bobby m's element enclosures and what did I get in response? "Well thats what they recommend on the electric brewery website"...
I did have the 1/2a fuse protect my pids when I had rewired and alarm switch incorrectly.
I'm sorry, I don't think the point was clear. If you have any wiring that is only capable of 25 amps protected by an upstream 30amp breaker, you have a potential overheat situation if something goes wrong. For sure, it would have to be a rare situation where a malfunctioning element pulls 29 amps, but no more than that. Given the short runs we're talking about, is it really worth saving 60 cents a foot? Granted, 12/3 SJ is a bit easier to handle than 10/3 so I can see the attraction.
IMO many of us are just copying what we see out of fear and ignorance without asking the right questions why and if its really needed. I questioned this recently in another thread were someone complained that the wire barely fit through bobby m's element enclosures and what did I get in response? "Well thats what they recommend on the electric brewery website"...
It is not fear, nor ignorance. It is N.E.C code and it would be unwise for any business to suggest wiring something that violates code. Lawsuits and such.
OK so how does it violate code?
Yes I did go off on a rant, lets reiterate.My response was a statement on why businesses specify size X,Y or Z conductors based on the overprotection amp ratings of the circuit. Conductors need to be sized to overcurrent protection or better. If not, it is a code violation. Pretty simple really. What business entity would do otherwise? Who would want the liability?
The rest of your post appears to be a rant, so I'll leave it at that and agree with your statement about having work inspected.
As far as element wiring, even though the soow 12/3 wire is rated at 25amps up to 600v and the cable run is usually pretty short, many people suggest to others they need 10/3 so the more expensive impractical 10/3 has become the size of choice for both 19 amp 4500w elements and 23amp max 5500w elements.... even though it barely fits through the connector collars and it not very flexible Why? IMO many of us are just copying what we see out of fear and ignorance without asking the right questions why and if its really needed. I questioned this recently in another thread were someone complained that the wire barely fit through bobby m's element enclosures and what did I get in response? "Well thats what they recommend on the electric brewery website"...
But we are not talking about a 30 amp circuit? We are talking about either 19A or 23A max circuits depending on the wattage of the heating element used being powered off a cord rated for 25a.The bolded remarks are the reason for my post. The recommended wire sizes are what is based on code for 30amp circuits. Nothing to do with fear or ignorance, as you were implying, then alluding to comments based on recommendations from a commercial website.
That is the reason for my post, that commercial entities have a valid reason to recommend the minimal requirements to meet NEC code.
I didn't want a reader to presume commercial recommendations were all about bling or not valid.
You made the argument against me?You seem to want to have an argument with me based on nothing I have said based on my post my defending commercial recommendations. You defend yourself with arguments I am not making.
On the other hand, when you have a circuit protected by a 30 amp breaker, that is a 30 amp circuit. Period. I don't care how you want to justify not protecting conductors properly. Yes, you can use 12 gage wire. Do not suggest it is proper to protect it with 30 amp overcurrent protection. It is amazing that you keep on suggesting price isn't a factor, yet you keep bringing it up. Use the damn .50 cent 20 amp fuse and all is good. That was the entire point. You were suggesting it is ok to not protect the wiring correctly because of your misunderstanding of how to size conductors vs overprotection.
You were suggesting it is ok to not protect the wiring correctly because of your misunderstanding of how to size conductors vs overprotection.
Yes but as you yourself even admitted an element that somehow failed in a way that its starts drawing more current would likely not stop at under the 30a breakers threshold ... and even so a 25A fuse with 12G soow is a safer (and more economical) choice than 10G without the fuse or additional breaker... right? a short to ground is much more likely to happen when the element fails.First let's be very clear that since these panels are wired as temporary use appliances via SJ or SO cord, "code" doesn't apply per say. The electric brewery is about as close to true industrial controls as any homebrewery panel is going to be and it's clear that there was a certain standard it was designed to. Yes, perhaps it's a bit overkill in both build and function, but since when is that odd in these circles?
Again, I'll reiterate my point that the reason 10 gauge is appropriate if you're following electrical best practices is due to the size of the breaker directly upstream. Whether you accept that ultimate failure is probable or not is a different topic perhaps. If you contend that 12 gauge is fine because the load is only pulling 19 amps, the next breaker upstream should be 20amp. Sure, 20a fuses are fine also. The point is better demonstrated when you consider a 50 amp panel. In that case, the control panel is also acting more like a sub-panel. If you created a panel like that, and had 6/3 running to the panel, it would be best to split it with a pair of 25amp breakers if you wanted to use 12/3 to each element. It's more dangerous to just use a tap because the upstream breaker is 50amp.
The code police are not going to knock on the door. Like many things in life, there's an adequate way of doing things and then a slightly overbuilt way. People are free to make their own choices but it's always better to er on the safer side when giving someone advice when taking shortcuts can cause fires. By the way, if an element starts pulling more current, there's no reason why GFCI would get involved as there would be no current mismatch between L1 and L2.
Please by all means enlighten me because this is the exact type of comments im talking about?? They are made to imply things with no explanation!
How does a 19A or 23a 240v load on a cable rated for 25a at 600v not sized correctly for this application??
The elements are on their own power cords one their own outlets and just plug into the the control panel ... they are not hardwired...I thought I was clear that the 30amp overprotection means it is a 30amp circuit. It does not matter if a device on that circuit uses 1 amp or 30. Using your logic, you could use 22 gauge wire to a device using 3 amps and still use a 30amp breaker. Does this make sense?
I think we are done beating this dead horse.
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