Bottom Drain Keggle - Whirpool and Hop Debris

[sasky7777]

I am going with bottom drain keggles on my electric HERMS Kal clone. I have three questions about the BK for those of you running them.

1) With a nipple, ball valve, maybe a street elbow all beneath the BK do I have to worry about liquid sitting in there? My plan is to use this (http://brewhardware.com/valves-69/137-tcsanke) but I am concerned about wort sitting in the pipe and not being mixed with the rest of the liquid. The HLT and MT aren't concerns since I will be recirculating. Should I put the ball valve immediately after the TC fitting or am I worrying about nothing?

2) False bottom or Hop Spider to control hop debris and hot break?

3) Whirpooling seems to be more and more popular. Is it possible to do it with a bottom drain keggle? I am concerned that even if I can get a good whirpool despite the element, won't I just end up putting a pile of garbage over top the drain and clogging the system? I am planning on a CFC chiller and hop rocket hop back. I am also considering taking the TC fitting off the top of the keg and using the top as the opening and welding the TC off to the side on the bottom, kind of a reverse bottom drain.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

I concur, with your "pile of garbage over the drain" happening.

Now I'm watching for more info.

 

[Setesh]

1) With a nipple, ball valve, maybe a street elbow all beneath the BK do I have to worry about liquid sitting in there? My plan is to use this (http://brewhardware.com/valves-69/137-tcsanke) but I am concerned about wort sitting in the pipe and not being mixed with the rest of the liquid. The HLT and MT aren't concerns since I will be recirculating. Should I put the ball valve immediately after the TC fitting or am I worrying about nothing?

The most common solution is to have a bottom drain AND a side drain/diptube. This is what I do. You can recirculate through the bottom port the entire boil, and then after whirlpooling you shut off your pump, let everything settle, and use a side mounted diptube to pull off the wort. I have tried just draining out the bottom port into a bucket and shutting the valve after most of the trub has drained off. This works, but not as well as the side drain method, and I never make IPAs or things with tons of hops so I don't really tax my bottom drain much. YMMV.

2) False bottom or Hop Spider to control hop debris and hot break?

False bottom WILL clog with pellet hops. Hop spider is the better option here.

3) Whirpooling seems to be more and more popular. Is it possible to do it with a bottom drain keggle? I am concerned that even if I can get a good whirpool despite the element, won't I just end up putting a pile of garbage over top the drain and clogging the system?

During whirlpool you shouldn't have a problem since the break/hop material is dispersed throughout the liquid. If you have a ton of hops you can run into a problem when it is time to drain. This is where your side drain comes into play.

 

[dlaramie08]

Are you gonna do stainless or has anyone thought of an hdpe electric kettle?

 

[Huaco]

I actually have the same setup. You can look through my build to see if it helps you out any.

I ABSOLUTELY love my bottom drain keggles.

On the boil kettle, I went with the large hop strainer basket sold by StainlessBrewing.com

You can't really whirlpool in these anyway so don't worry about it. The element doesn't really allow for it and the dome bottom of the vessel really hurts the formation of a hop cone in the middle. I simply boil and add all additions to the screen basket. Pull the basket out when the time is up and then chill. I don't elbow any of my connections. I wanted as straight of a run as possible to the pumps. You will want to recirculate the hot boiling wort through the CFC for several minutes prior to chilling so this will mix up the very small amount of wort that will be living in the pipe. (See here)

I will be more than happy to help you out on your build with any questions you have. What kal system are you building? I built the 50Amp Back to Back system and really like it.

RDWHAHB

 

[sasky7777]

Thanks Huaco, I have been following your threads closely.

My HERMS coil came from stainless brewing.com, and I am quite happy with it. I think I will be going with one of the biggest version of this - http://stainlessbrewing.3dcartstores.com/Hop-Spider-with-rigid-bottom-_p_123.html.

Anyone else have an opinion on the elbow after the bottom drain?

I have been a protracted build, so my plans when I saw Kal's sight 4 years ago compared to now have changed. The more I think about what I want out of my system, the more I am leaning to the Back to Back system. I am the only beer drinker, so it will be 5 gallon batches mostly, but I can't drink stouts every day, so I want lots of variety in selection. Since I won't have much time to actually brew if I can knock out a saison and then an IPA in one brew day that is a plus for me.

 

[Setesh]

The more I think about what I want out of my system, the more I am leaning to the Back to Back system.

That is what I ended up building, and for the same reasons you list. I actually end up giving away about 1/3 to 1/2 of the beer I make. I am the only one in the house that drinks it, and after my daughter joined our lives our social life kinda fell on it's face. I enjoy brewing as much, if not more, than I enjoy drinking the beer. I also have a few buddies that are just getting into brewing and we usually end up making one batch for me and one batch for them. Because of this the back to back panel made the most sense. And since I still have my original gas fired keggle we can either run off into that kettle or the electric depending on if the first batch has vacated the ekeggle or not. It should save a lot of time on brew days.
Also, I'm realizing the bottom drain is going to save my back. I don't know how much my EHERMS HLT weighs, but it's heavy enough I don't want to move it around. The bottom drain allows for CIP, and that will be a huge benefit.

 

[cosmatics]

Just seeing this thread, some great ideas. I'm embarrased that I didn't think about the whirlpool bottom/front drain solution. Simple elegance. I'm in a similar boat to setesh, I love to brew but don't really drink so much lately as I've been low-carbing.

I'd like to do some more whole leaf hop brews, where do you guys put the hop spider, etc.? I'm currenly plate chilling, but can whip out the IC if thats better, but I prefer to plate chill.

 

[TheZer]

My process using bottom drain BK.
1. Last 15 minutes of boil, put IC inside a 5 gallon paint stainer.
2. Drop the whole thing into BK.
3. Turn on march pump, recirculating wort through center of IC.
4. Turn on IC water supply to cool wort.
5. Once wort is cool, fill fermenter with wort.
6. Remove IC with paint strainer filled with trub.

 

[Setesh]

My process using bottom drain BK.
1. Last 15 minutes of boil, put IC inside a 5 gallon paint stainer.
2. Drop the whole thing into BK.
3. Turn on march pump, recirculating wort through center of IC.
4. Turn on IC water supply to cool wort.
5. Once wort is cool, fill fermenter with wort.
6. Remove IC with paint strainer filled with trub.

That sounds extremely promising. What problems , if any, do you notice with this process. For example, does it work great until you make an ipa, wheat beer , etc.?

 

[mwill07]

My process using bottom drain BK.
1. Last 15 minutes of boil, put IC inside a 5 gallon paint stainer.
2. Drop the whole thing into BK.
3. Turn on march pump, recirculating wort through center of IC.
4. Turn on IC water supply to cool wort.
5. Once wort is cool, fill fermenter with wort.
6. Remove IC with paint strainer filled with trub.

any problems with the paint strainer touching the heating element?

 

[jcaudill]

I can't speak at all to the elements or the keggles because I'm not as familiar with either. However: I will say that it is very typical in a commercial brewery to whirlpool, and then cast out through a drain in the bottom of the kettle that is as far to the side as possible. This is usually outside of the trub pile you generate from whirlpooling. You'll eventually pull a little trub through - but most of it remains. This said, the design of the bottom of the vessel is important. It either needs to be flat or slighly raised cone. If it is more convex then you'll lose some wort you'll have to account for in the recipe formulation.

I really can't see the element getting that much in the way - maybe I'm wrong. A lot of commercial kettles are dual-purpose mash/brew kettles which means they have agitators mounted in the bottom center. I've seen trub piles form just fine around the agitator so I can't see why the element would be any different.

IMHO: if you can whirlpool and get a bottom drain as far to the side as possible, do it. If you can't whirlpool or are going to be forced to use a diptube in a bottom mounting config, then I'm not sure why you go through the effort. You can just side mount it with a diptube.

Although I will say - the thought of having a bottom drain is kind of appealing for cleanup reasons!

Hope these thoughts help somehow.

 

[Setesh]

Now that I have done a few IPAs in my new setup I thought I would report back. These have ranged from 6 to 8 ounces of pellet hops in a 6 gallon batch. After whirlpooling and pulling the wort off the trub I went to drain the kettle through the bottom drain. It let out a little bit of liquid and then wouldn't flow anymore. If you were going to try and drain your finished wort off into the fermentor from the bottom drain then I think you would have constant problems with high hop loads. Since I am only using the drain for CIP I got the hose out and hit the trub pile with the water stream and that was all it took to start the drain flowing. I was able to CIP without any problems. I don't see why it would be different for anyone else. Thin the pile out and it will flow.

 

[TheZer]

any problems with the paint strainer touching the heating element?

Strangely, no problems. You would think that the element would burn a hole in the stainer, but it hasn't happened...yet.

 

[rgauthier20420]

Now that I have done a few IPAs in my new setup I thought I would report back. These have ranged from 6 to 8 ounces of pellet hops in a 6 gallon batch. After whirlpooling and pulling the wort off the trub I went to drain the kettle through the bottom drain. It let out a little bit of liquid and then wouldn't flow anymore. If you were going to try and drain your finished wort off into the fermentor from the bottom drain then I think you would have constant problems with high hop loads. Since I am only using the drain for CIP I got the hose out and hit the trub pile with the water stream and that was all it took to start the drain flowing. I was able to CIP without any problems. I don't see why it would be different for anyone else. Thin the pile out and it will flow.

Were you using any kind of hop strainer for this? I'd imagine a regular drain would get clogged if nothing was used to strain the hop material.

I'm about to be building my eKeggle and am considering a bottom drain. I hate that I'm leaving wort behind in there and the CIP aspect is just to appealing. I use a paint strainer bag clipped to the inside of the keggle for putting my hops in and haven't had issues in the least with clogs with my side pick up. I don't whirlpool for the sake of creating the cone either. I'm expecting that with the bottom drain and paint strainer, I shouldn't have issues with a clogged drain. Should I reconsider?

 

[jcaudill]

You can CIP without a bottom drain. All you need is a simple pickup tube. A bottom drain makes it a little easier in terms of not having to dump the pot but doesn't change anything with CIP.

 

[Setesh]

Were you using any kind of hop strainer for this? I'd imagine a regular drain would get clogged if nothing was used to strain the hop material.

I'm about to be building my eKeggle and am considering a bottom drain. I hate that I'm leaving wort behind in there and the CIP aspect is just to appealing. I use a paint strainer bag clipped to the inside of the keggle for putting my hops in and haven't had issues in the least with clogs with my side pick up. I don't whirlpool for the sake of creating the cone either. I'm expecting that with the bottom drain and paint strainer, I shouldn't have issues with a clogged drain. Should I reconsider?

Nope, no form of stariner, just a whirlpool. I don't think you will have problems clogging the drain as long as you aren't attempting to drain your wort through it. Now if you ARE planning on using the bottom drain to run off your wort then I would advise you to reconsider. The reason is that it is not only hops that you are trying to avoid pulling off with the wort, there is also the hot break to consider. If you are going to repitch your yeast then you want to have the cleanest possible wort going into the fermentor. The cleanest wort is also good for lagers. If you pull the wort off through the bottom drain you are going to get every single bit of crud along with your wort. My recommendation would be to include a bottom drain AND a side pickup tube. Use the side pickup tube for collecting your wort and the bottom drain only for CIP. That is what I do and it works extremely well. After I have chilled the wort I turn off the pump and let the wort sit for 30-45 minutes. All of the particulate settles out. I then sanitize the fitting on my side pickup, attach a sanitized hose, and run off the first little bit into a waste bucket. The first bit inevitably has crud in it. After this I can run off completely clear wort into my fermentor.

 

[Setesh]

You can CIP without a bottom drain. All you need is a simple pickup tube. A bottom drain makes it a little easier in terms of not having to dump the pot but doesn't change anything with CIP.

Unless I am not understanding you, Clean In Place by definition rules out dumping the pot. Leaving the pot in place and thoroughly cleaning it is CIP. Moving it to dump it is not. Now you can CIP without a bottom drain and just use a shop vac to suck out the remaining water. That works fine too. You just have to keep rinsing until all particulate has gone through your pickup tube, then suck out the water.

 

[rgauthier20420]

Nope, no form of stariner, just a whirlpool. I don't think you will have problems clogging the drain as long as you aren't attempting to drain your wort through it. Now if you ARE planning on using the bottom drain to run off your wort then I would advise you to reconsider. The reason is that it is not only hops that you are trying to avoid pulling off with the wort, there is also the hot break to consider. If you are going to repitch your yeast then you want to have the cleanest possible wort going into the fermentor. The cleanest wort is also good for lagers. If you pull the wort off through the bottom drain you are going to get every single bit of crud along with your wort. My recommendation would be to include a bottom drain AND a side pickup tube. Use the side pickup tube for collecting your wort and the bottom drain only for CIP. That is what I do and it works extremely well. After I have chilled the wort I turn off the pump and let the wort sit for 30-45 minutes. All of the particulate settles out. I then sanitize the fitting on my side pickup, attach a sanitized hose, and run off the first little bit into a waste bucket. The first bit inevitably has crud in it. After this I can run off completely clear wort into my fermentor.

My process is some what different. Once the boil is finished, I circulate through my plate chiller then back to the kettle until it's at a temperature I need it to. I then switch valves and it goes straight to the fermenting bucket. I have a 2 valve configuration with a thermometer on the output of my plate chiller. I'm not worried about the hot/cold break getting into there. I've done it this way for awhile and have had no issues with clarity. I also do a cold crash before kegging. A big reason for the bottom drain is so I'm not leaving anything behind. I don't like that loss.

 

[Setesh]

My process is some what different. Once the boil is finished, I circulate through my plate chiller then back to the kettle until it's at a temperature I need it to. I then switch valves and it goes straight to the fermenting bucket. I have a 2 valve configuration with a thermometer on the output of my plate chiller. I'm not worried about the hot/cold break getting into there. I've done it this way for awhile and have had no issues with clarity. I also do a cold crash before kegging. A big reason for the bottom drain is so I'm not leaving anything behind. I don't like that loss.

I see where you are coming from better now. I brew 6-6.5 gallon batches depending on the hop load just so I can have 5.5 gallons of clear wort to run off. The bottom drain will allow you to get everything out as long as you don't have a big pile of hops sitting on top of it, and it sounds like you have that solved, so I think you will be just fine.

 

[rgauthier20420]

Unless I am not understanding you, Clean In Place by definition rules out dumping the pot. Leaving the pot in place and thoroughly cleaning it is CIP. Moving it to dump it is not. Now you can CIP without a bottom drain and just use a shop vac to suck out the remaining water. That works fine too. You just have to keep rinsing until all particulate has gone through your pickup tube, then suck out the water.

Yeah I've done the CIP thing with just adding additional water to sort of fill and drain and fill and drain. It's pretty annoying. Almost seems like you can never get every single thing. This will be a good change.