Biotransformation Hop Schedule?

[ultravista]

Is there a preferred biotransformation hop schedule? Reading through the Google, hop additions in the fermenter are all over the place.

Day 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or ?

 

[day_trippr]

That's a good question. For my neipas I've been adding the "bio-hops" 24 hours after a healthy pitch but I've also seen recommendations for 48 and even 72 hours post-pitch. I'm not a microbiologist (actually, one of my sons does that, come to think of it...But I digress...) so frankly I've just stuck a stake in the ground and gone with it...

Cheers!

 

[ultravista]

Do you only do 24 hours, nothing thereafter?

 

[day_trippr]

For my typical neipa recipe I do the bio-hops 24 hours post-pitch, let 'em simmer for 4 days, then do the traditional "dry hopping" - while leaving the bio-hops in the fermentor. After another 4-5 days I start the cold-crash and keg two days later...

Cheers!

 

[gunhaus]

FULL disclosure - I loathe the NEIPA style. However this is very interesting to me because i think there is some seriously interesting possibilities for adding what i like to think of as a mild hop "burst" or hop Freshness to "mild brews' like blonde or cream ales. I have thought a lot about how to; say dry hop "briefly" to give a little boost to these beers for my friends that like that hop bite. What kind of time does it take to add that little bit of hop brightness to a a light ale with dry hopping? An hour? A day? For instance BM's Centennial Blonde - If i wanted to give it a little citrusy brightness and bite from like Cascade or Citra- - -How long?

 

[day_trippr]

tbh I can't recall where I read this but purportedly a respected pro brewer claimed 80% of the dry-hop "bang" happens in the first 24 hours.
As character goals are far from universal I think you'd need to do a benchmark batch and adjust according to your desires going forward...

Cheers!

 

[ultravista]

For my typical neipa recipe I do the bio-hops 24 hours post-pitch, let 'em simmer for 4 days, then do the traditional "dry hopping" ...!

You are dry hopping only in the fermenter, correct? 1st DH = 24 hours then 2nd DH 96 hours later?

 

[day_trippr]

Yes, I do both additions in the fermentor, but I also do keg hops on occasion as well...

Cheers!

 

[ultravista]

Do you find that fermenter hopping only gives the 'juicy' flavor & aroma of most NEIPAs? This is my first time w/this process.

If I stick with this plan, there is a total of 5 ounces of hops in the fermenter - zero in the keg.

I also dumped the 3 ounces of whirlpool hops into the fermenter before pitching the yeast. These hops steeped <150 F for about 30 minutes in the kettle.

 

[marjen]

This is the million dollar question. I think we all just kind of guess. Since so many people are doing it different ways, maybe there is no right/wrong answer. I have been doing a single hop addition on day 2 or 3 recently with good results. This batch I am trying 3oz on day 2 and 6 oz on day 3 to see if it makes a difference.

I think to be more accurate we would need to be looking at where the gravity is when adding the additions. I use a tilt hydrometer so can see where I am at when I add hops. My goal with this last batch was to add an addition in the first half of fermentation (around peak) and one with a few points left. I missed the first window as at 48 hours it had already gone from 1.068 to 1.024. I should have probably tried to catch it around 36 hours. I had planned on day 4 for the 2nd addition, but this morning (day 3) it was already sitting at 1.017 so I will add the final 6 oz tonight as it will probably be around 1.012-14. I expect it to finish around 1.010 or so. Because I have a unitank I will also close the blow off and finish under pressure the rest of the way.

 

[kingmatt]

I do a large hop charge about 12 hours after the first signs of active fermentation and then keg hop. I try to get the hops in there before high Krausen so the hops don't just float on top of the foam. I want them to churn around in the beer while the yeast do their thing.

No science behind it, just makes sense to me.

 

[couchsending]

You need very little yeast activity to get any sort of biotransformation. In my opinion adding anytime before say .06 to go is literally wasting money.. all that aroma will be volatized and with so much yeast in suspension at high krausen most of the oils will be pulled down with the yeast when they floc.

 

[marjen]

" all that aroma will be volatized and with so much yeast in suspension at high krausen most of the oils will be pulled down with the yeast when they floc."

Have you read or watched any of the bruology eperiments? I have been really digging into them lately and they have basically disproved all of these assumptions. An interesting one was when they added all hops at pitch and the other batch all hops right at the tail end of fermentation. No difference in color, clarity, taste or smell was perceived. I am actually going to try this my next brew session. If you follow the NE IPA thread here, also a lot of feedback that just a single addition basically at anytime seems to yield the same results.

 

[couchsending]

I’ve read them all and done a lot of my own.. I tend to not agree with a lot of their findings...

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I've experimented. I think I get the best hop flavor when I add a bit later in the fermentation. I used to add pretty late and do a second dry hop 5 days later but found that the brightness was dropping too quickly. Then I started doubling my early addition and the flavor/aroma were fantastic. I moved the single addition earlier and it seemed to drop off a bit. I think there is a sweet spot.

My latest I added a bit later in the fermentation, but then did a second one just two days later so I can still follow my accelerated schedule. That one gets kegged Sunday so the jury is still out. I ordered a tilt hydrometer that was supposed to be here before I brewed but they changed the ship date after I ordered, so I had to fly blind on this batch.

I'm looking forward to knowing more detail about the fermentation progress and being able to make more informed decisions about this stuff. I think the tilt will enable me to brew more consistent NEIPAs since I'll be able to adjust to varying batches of yeast or differences in how they behave from one batch to another.

 

[kingmatt]

You need very little yeast activity to get any sort of biotransformation. In my opinion adding anytime before say .06 to go is literally wasting money.. all that aroma will be volatized and with so much yeast in suspension at high krausen most of the oils will be pulled down with the yeast when they floc.

I've done a lot of experimenting on when to add the hops and have found adding them just prior to high Krausen and then in the keg yields the best aroma for my palate.

It is certainly an inexact science.

 

[noiz2]

I’ve read them all and done a lot of my own.. I tend to not agree with a lot of their findings...

not to cloud the issue with actual research but this page would be of interest to the OP.

The short answer is that results vary depending on the compounds. For some the longer they are in the fermentor the lower they go but for a couple the biotransformation takes some time so certain compounds will actually increase. For those it looks like it takes about two days for the transformation to begin and it continued to change for quite a few days. So depending on the hops you use and the flavors you want to end up with you may want to hop really late or really early, or somewhere inbetween.

 

[MGamber]

I've experimented. I think I get the best hop flavor when I add a bit later in the fermentation. I used to add pretty late and do a second dry hop 5 days later but found that the brightness was dropping too quickly. Then I started doubling my early addition and the flavor/aroma were fantastic. I moved the single addition earlier and it seemed to drop off a bit. I think there is a sweet spot.

My latest I added a bit later in the fermentation, but then did a second one just two days later so I can still follow my accelerated schedule. That one gets kegged Sunday so the jury is still out. I ordered a tilt hydrometer that was supposed to be here before I brewed but they changed the ship date after I ordered, so I had to fly blind on this batch.

I'm looking forward to knowing more detail about the fermentation progress and being able to make more informed decisions about this stuff. I think the tilt will enable me to brew more consistent NEIPAs since I'll be able to adjust to varying batches of yeast or differences in how they behave from one batch to another.

^^^ This

I've done early (day 1), late (day 5) and somewhere in the middle and my best results have been to add the hops as close to right after high krausen as possible...usually day 3 or 4. Earlier or later than that still makes a good beer but the aroma, taste and whatever biotransformation actually is seems to peak when the hops are added then. I've also had the best luck with Conan (Vermont IPA, etc) yeast. I've tried several other kinds of yeast and noticed no change in hop aroma or flavor. With Conan it can be very noticable depending on the yeast generation, pitch rate and fermentation temp. At least that's been my experience.

 

[MVKTR2]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole point in dry hopping during active fermentation is biotransformation. Otherwise you could follow traditional dry hopping techniques or keg hopping for intense hop aroma/flavor.

To further clarify biotransformation is about activating properties of the hops, typically fruit character in hops most often linked to neomexicanis, that wouldn't otherwise be present/prevalent in the beer.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I've done a lot of experimenting on when to add the hops and have found adding them just prior to high Krausen and then in the keg yields the best aroma for my palate.

It is certainly an inexact science.

I usually keg hop all my beers, but am trying out a "biotransformation" dose for the first time. I added about 16 hours after pitch after it showed a healthy start.

The hops all seem to be hanging around the top and sticking to the top of the carboy rather than sinking down in suspension. Do you usually just let it do its thing, or do you give it a couple shakes to kick the hops back down?

I'm not quite at krausen yet, bear in mind.

 

[couchsending]

In the over 150 batches of hoppy beers I’ve done in the last three years adding dry hops any time before say the last 1* plato of fermentation is a waste of dry hops and tends to produce a more muddled hop expression.

Here’s a statement from Lallemand specifically

“It is also important to note that this interaction may have unfavorable effects if we dry hop our beers under active fermentation (e.g. first fermentation) will lead to the reduction of hop oils by:

- CO2 stripping (hop oils are very volatile)

- Masking (fermentation compounds may mask the hop oil aroma)

- Adsorption (hop oils adsorbed by yeast membrane, which is removed later on)

However, if dry hopping is performed at the very end of the fermentation, where there is lower CO2 production (which kept within the tank) but yeast is still very active, the following benefits occur:

- Less CO2 stripping (more hop oils kept in the beer matrix)

- Reduction of dissolved oxygen (DO) by active yeast during dry hopping

- Ethanol presence (more hop oil solubility)

- Higher temperature (more solubility)- Some fermentation left (mixing effect due to beer turbulence)


Not listed is also the issue with mercaptan production due to the extended contact of high alpha hops with yeast. Alpha acids can coat the yeast and cause them to explode. Essentially leaking their guts into your beer. Some people are more sensitive to mercaptans than others.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

In the over 150 batches of hoppy beers I’ve done in the last three years adding dry hops any time before say the last 1* plato of fermentation is a waste of dry hops and tends to produce a more muddled hop expression.

Here’s a statement from Lallemand specifically

“It is also important to note that this interaction may have unfavorable effects if we dry hop our beers under active fermentation (e.g. first fermentation) will lead to the reduction of hop oils by:

- CO2 stripping (hop oils are very volatile)

- Masking (fermentation compounds may mask the hop oil aroma)

- Adsorption (hop oils adsorbed by yeast membrane, which is removed later on)

However, if dry hopping is performed at the very end of the fermentation, where there is lower CO2 production (which kept within the tank) but yeast is still very active, the following benefits occur:

- Less CO2 stripping (more hop oils kept in the beer matrix)

- Reduction of dissolved oxygen (DO) by active yeast during dry hopping

- Ethanol presence (more hop oil solubility)

- Higher temperature (more solubility)- Some fermentation left (mixing effect due to beer turbulence)


Not listed is also the issue with mercaptan production due to the extended contact of high alpha hops with yeast. Alpha acids can coat the yeast and cause them to explode. Essentially leaking their guts into your beer. Some people are more sensitive to mercaptans than others.

I'm skeptical about the biotransformation as well, but wanted to give it a try.

Saving most of my hops for the keg. Added 2oz on day 1 (16 hours from pitching after it got off to a good start) and going to add 6oz in the keg hop (this is the max I ever hop in a keg as I find diminishing returns after this).

From what I've read not all yeasts are capable of biotransforming hop compounds. So, I think on some yeast strains its probably a waste of hops but for others it might add another dimension of flavor.

I'm not a scientist though, so who the hell knows.

However, I was hanging out at Grimm a few months ago and I was speaking to the person who runs their yeast lab. He analyzes the yeast and wort with a microscope and other scientific apparatuses. He mentioned that he does observe biotransformation of certain hop compounds with only certain strains of yeast. Most of Grimm's IPAs use such a yeast and are given one hop dose early for biotransformation, then another larger dose prior to packaging (with a few points left to reduce O2).

Take it with a grain of salt, but dude seemed to know what he was talking about...and I like their NEIPAs more than most.

Btw...the stain I'm using is OYL-200 tropical IPA (i.e. Sach Trois)

 

[tellyho]

I am tending to split my dry hop into two doses: end of fermentation and keg. I've been happy enough with the outcome that I haven't been driven to experiment with other schedules.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I am tending to split my dry hop into two doses: end of fermentation and keg. I've been happy enough with the outcome that I haven't been driven to experiment with other schedules.

I used to throw in the primary directly too, but now I generally just do a big keg hop. Yeast is out of the way and less chance for O2 exposure vs. dumping in the primary. It's also less messy when transferring to the keg

If I had a conical I'd probably try pulling out the yeast and adding the hops directly with a few points of terminal gravity to go. But I'm fermenting in plastic carboys