Bine Theory

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frazier

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I've heard it said (here in this forum) that you should only let a few shoots go up each string, and prune the rest. This supposedly improves the vigor of the shoots.

I heard a guy on NPR (he was talking about trees) who didn't agree with this idea. He said that if the "weak sister" shoots, or branches, had leaves and were healthy, then they were at least pulling their weight, and not detracting from the plant. He said you can prune for shape if you want, but cutting off healthy parts does not improve the overall vigor of the plant.

So, I'm going to let everything grow this year. I've got a dozen or more shoots from each second-year crown, and I'm going to let them grow in a glorious jumble. I'll report back in August.

What do you think?
 
I think the folks who grow hops for a living know how to maximize production and if the theory was correct than they would be commercially growing hops in the same manner. Further, just because they have healthy branches doesn't mean its pulling its weight...parasites are perfectly healthy when sucking the life from a host. You also get into feeding the growth, hop bines grow rapidly and suck nutrients from the soil just as quick, if you let everything grow you will need to feed them accordingly.
 
You might wind up with 12 bines and much less hop production.

But then again most of my hop growing career has been a failure due to APHIDS, poorly timed windstorms and a general lack of that yellow disk in the sky.
 
Wait - you mean there are people who grow hop for a living, and they might actually know what they're doing??

Maybe I should conduct a controlled experiment - prune one crown as advised, and let the other go.

Bensiff, your point about needing extra nutrients to feed the growth is a good one. I'll try to take that into account.
 
Hops and trees are very different plants. Hops are near the top of the heap when it comes their photosynthetic capability. This means that they can produce more than enough energy to sustain their vigorous top growth with the excess going for storage in the crown. I had a Brewer's Gold plant that I experimented with and removed all the top growth for about 3 successive years. Last year I decided to let it grow, and grow it did. It produced like the experiment never occurred.

When it comes to the number of shoots that are allowed to climb, I think that is more of a harvest issue as too many hops on the individual strings would end up binding the picking equipment up. Personally on my more vigorous varieties, I usually only let 4 or 5 at the most climb. This is due to the fact that any more than this creates big problems as the sidearms become tangled and picking is a nightmare. The poor producers may have 6-8 trained as their sidearms are much shorter and don't really pose a big problem.

Also, if the plants are growing in relatively good soil/environmental conditions, the difference in growth from the first year and second can be amazing. AND, the difference between the 2nd and 3rd year can be equally amazing. Usually after the 3rd year they are in line for a good beating to keep them under control. The girls growing at my place have been very well behaved after they realize that I keep more than one shovel handy at all times. Grow On!
 
B-hoppy is right on - I'd be more prone to compare them to grape vines. Those grape growers prune like madmen.
 
I've heard it said (here in this forum) that you should only let a few shoots go up each string, and prune the rest. This supposedly improves the vigor of the shoots.

I heard a guy on NPR (he was talking about trees) who didn't agree with this idea. He said that if the "weak sister" shoots, or branches, had leaves and were healthy, then they were at least pulling their weight, and not detracting from the plant. He said you can prune for shape if you want, but cutting off healthy parts does not improve the overall vigor of the plant.

So, I'm going to let everything grow this year. I've got a dozen or more shoots from each second-year crown, and I'm going to let them grow in a glorious jumble. I'll report back in August.

What do you think?

I agree with this entirley. All plants have one goal in their life and that is to set seed. That is what they do, so just let them do it. Commercial growers want them to set seed at the same time, so they can gain the most out of their harvest. Hops , wheat , corn , rice it doesnt matter. What does matter is the fact that they all ripen at the same time, so they can harvest.
For the average homebrewer who has a few hop plants in his garden, its totally different, we can harvest the ones when theyre ready by picking them by hand.
 
I think the folks who grow hops for a living know how to maximize production and if the theory was correct than they would be commercially growing hops in the same manner. Further, just because they have healthy branches doesn't mean its pulling its weight...parasites are perfectly healthy when sucking the life from a host. You also get into feeding the growth, hop bines grow rapidly and suck nutrients from the soil just as quick, if you let everything grow you will need to feed them accordingly.

I agree.
It is my understanding that cutting back the number of bines aids in reducing mold/mildew by improving air circulation around the cones at harvest time.
Less crowding = less chances of water being trapped within the cones and leaves = healthier plant.
 
There is more to it however with the pro's than just getting all to ripen at the same time. Redusing the risk of mold and mildew is = as important as crop #'s. The east coast at one time was the premier hops producer of the USA then i believe powdery mildew took care of that. SO lon and short pruning helps reduce disease chances, however going as small as 3-4 bines perplant is also not necessary. if harvest is sole concern trim if apearance is also a key(my case) then let a few more grow. I have 12-15 per crown going right now. however i am slowly removing all lower leaves to help with the mold/mildew elimination
 
Given discussion as it continues, I would add to the experiment using multiple lines to let the bines grow on...fanning them out in a way so that you can increase air circulation and sun exposure while limiting how much the sidearms tangle things up. I would also agree that you should run it as an experiment as suggested with having one grow in the traditional fashion as a control. I'm also wondering if not pruning back will impact the quality of the flowers ie pruning fruit trees...you get a lower yield, but higher quality fruit.
 
ultravista,

I can only tell you what's going on at my little patch of the earth. My education dealt with turfgrass so that's what I know very well. The different positions I've held over the years have exposed me to many different aspects of agriculture and I've seen too many examples of folks taking things to extremes when it comes to plants (sometimes it doesn't take too much of what you think is a good thing to push plants over the edge). When it comes to fertilizer - I think this is probably one of biggest ways folks do more harm than good to their plants.

The 'weeds' we are growing, at least in my garden, don't seem to need a whole lot of additional nutrients from fertilizer to perform at their peak. I did utilize some small amounts of an ag-grade 20-10-10 fertilizer when I first started growing them (a small handful per hill). At that point, they were just becoming established and I really didn't know what I was in for. The following year, I think it was their 3rd full year in the ground, they EXPLODED with growth to the point that I couldn't keep up with them. After that episode I decided to just dress the crowns with a nice layer of compost after spring rhizome digging was done, and then again while putting them to bed in the late fall.

Sorry for sounding so philosophical but some questions deserve more than a two sentence response. There are many many variables, especially when it comes to soil texture. I've got a lot of clay and a good bit of additional organic matter that tends to have a lot of nutrient holding ability (as opposed to very sandy soils). I guess long story short, if you can grow a decent variety of plants on your property, you probably don't have to mess with the hops too much. I really like to try to keep my life as simple as possible for many reasons so I just rely on good soil amendments - lots of compost. That's just me though.
 
I've heard it said (here in this forum) that you should only let a few shoots go up each string, and prune the rest. This supposedly improves the vigor of the shoots.

I heard a guy on NPR (he was talking about trees) who didn't agree with this idea. He said that if the "weak sister" shoots, or branches, had leaves and were healthy, then they were at least pulling their weight, and not detracting from the plant. He said you can prune for shape if you want, but cutting off healthy parts does not improve the overall vigor of the plant.

I've been wondering about this myself. There are many factors to think about here.
First off why did people start doing this: well is sure make things easier if your growing hundreds of plants. But what if you have five or six... So for agriculture it works, but is it best for horticulture?

From the botany side of things; Cutting a plant will cause shock, which will slow it's growth down for up to a week. Hops are quite strong plants and are less effected by this compared to many other plants. And on the flip side; a plant that undergoes traumatic stress may produce flowers/fruit sooner and more prolifically, as an "oh s***! I'm going to die! make babies!" response.
Another thing to consider is plant hormones. I'm not an expert on this, but the plant produces hormones which cause the plant to grow and flower. Some of these are simply less dense than other fluids in the vascular system and thereby "float" to the highest points of the plant. By removing parts of the plant, your taking these away from the plant.

Sun light is something to consider too. In an agricultural setting the 2 strings work well, but when you have just a few plants, and a lot of space, you can train them to get more light. Last year I set up netting at about 45der. This gave a large space for the plant to grow on and a lot of light for it to grab. I kept it branchy rather than just a few bines. It was a first year plant, and I had no control, so I have nothing to compare it too. But I did notice something which brings me to my next point.

Only the stronger bines produce flowers. Last year I had a lot of spindly bines that did nothing. The only ones that made cones where the thicker, stronger ones. So if you let a rhizome put off 20 shoots, the energy that is stored and what the roots can take up will be divided by 20. This will result in smaller shoots. This may mean more plant matter (leaves and stems) but no flowers. I think this is the most important thing to think about/study to determent the ideal garden growing of hops.

Pathogens have been brought up, which is a good thing to think about. It would seem that the traditional string method would reduce the potential for problems. I don't have any data on this, and doubt that it exists.

So in conclusion; I think some testing needs to be done here. The standard system of growing hops seems to be based on agricultural systems which don't necessarily apply to the hobbyist. The act of removing parts of a plant defiantly effect it in some way. The way in which the plant is structured will effect the sun light it gets, and potential for mildew. This year I am growing 10 plants in a more traditional way, but would be trying other things if I had more space.
 
Once the plants have a few years in the ground there's a BIG difference in their vigor and how they grow. The first year, some may never produce cones at all. You proved that to yourself.

A lot of the growers here have only seen what these beasts are capable of for a few years. The Cascade crown that I just strung up was SEVERELY cut back last year and did quite well. This year I've already removed 200 or so of the new growth. I will string about 5 shoots per pole (3 poles) and usually end up with about 2 lbs from each pole. Those are just the 'Big Fatties' as they are much easier to pick.

Once the selected shoots are up and climbing I will most likely have to remove at least another 100 straggler shoots that will continue to emerge over the next few months. Believe me, they can get the best of you if you let them. B-Hoppy!
 
B-Hoppy.. Ive always read your posts with interest and I am truly glad of your input. Thank you. I recently spoke to a hop farmer in Worcester, UK. about pruning/selecting bines and his reply to the question about pruning/selecting bines was:-
"just put them in the ground, give them something to climb up and use your experience to know when to harvest"

"Fertilizer ?"
"No, make sure you have the correct soil"

"Pruning?"
"With 17 acres of hop plant, what do you think?"

"Can I have some hops when thyre ready ?"
"No, F**k Off, you can buy some like everyone else"

Them Worcestershire hop growers are a bunch of hard assed Barstewards.
 
johnnyboy1965,

That's the difference between someone who grows them for a living as opposed to someone who grows them for fun. Please don't fault your local growers for giving you a f**** off, about your questions, they have to make a living. Giving advice and answering questions doesn't put food on their table. I have an opportunity to do it as a hobby and I can only offer advice from my personal observations and from the folks I've interacted with. I'm sure if you have a chance to talk to some smaller growers who don't rely on hops as their only source of income that they may be able to help you. Agriculture is a BRUTAL business and you'll find many different personalities as you speak to them individually. Keep plugging along, that's what it's all about! I'm sure if you contacted Wye College that someone there could give you more information than you could possibly use. And remember to 'B-Hoppy'.
 
johnnyboy1965,

That's the difference between someone who grows them for a living as opposed to someone who grows them for fun. Please don't fault your local growers for giving you a f**** off, about your questions, they have to make a living. Giving advice and answering questions doesn't put food on their table. I have an opportunity to do it as a hobby and I can only offer advice from my personal observations and from the folks I've interacted with. I'm sure if you have a chance to talk to some smaller growers who don't rely on hops as their only source of income that they may be able to help you. Agriculture is a BRUTAL business and you'll find many different personalities as you speak to them individually. Keep plugging along, that's what it's all about! I'm sure if you contacted Wye College that someone there could give you more information than you could possibly use. And remember to 'B-Hoppy'.

I think my reply might have come across wrong. It was a very funny and light-hearted conversation and the grower was very helpful. He even invited me to go and have a look around.
 
Wow johnnyboy,

I'm still feeling the burn from that one. Nice job!

I do still stick to my opinion about farming being an uphill battle. Draughts, floods, plagues, government regulations/interference and etc, etc, etc. If there's a desirable crop being grown that doesn't have a pest assigned to it, you can bet that Mother Nature is working on it. Now I have to go find a solution to controlling invasive terrestrial orchids.

By the way, Wye College IS a great source for info. on hops.
 
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