Best neutral dry yeast that does not mute hops

[CyberFox]

I've been trying to determine the most neutral dry yeast that doesn't mute hop flavor/aroma. The two main ones I've looked into are US-05 and BRY-97 and I've heard pros and cons about each of them:
Some say that US-05 is more neutral than BRY-97 and others say the opposite.
Some say that US-05 gives undesirable peach flavors and BRY-97 gives banana flavors.
Some say that BRY-97 mutes hop flavor/aroma due to higher flocculation and others say that US-05 does also even though it has lower flocculation.

I know that US-05 was the go-to favorite for a long time, but now seems to be falling out of favor for some reason. I've also considered Lutra Kveik, but some say that it's not as clean as others and I can't keep it at a high temperature anyway.

Overall, I'm just trying to find the best neutral dry yeast that lets malt and hops shine as much as possible. I know opinions and knowledge change over time, so please let me know what you think and give me any suggestions you have that meet my criteria.

Thanks in advance!

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm liking S-04. It's better than it was a few years ago, like the manufacturer cleaned it up and started fresh or something.

 

[PCABrewing]

I've been trying to determine the most neutral dry yeast that doesn't mute hop flavor/aroma. The two main ones I've looked into are US-05 and BRY-97 and I've heard pros and cons about each of them:
Some say that US-05 is more neutral than BRY-97 and others say the opposite.
Some say that US-05 gives undesirable peach flavors and BRY-97 gives banana flavors.
Some say that BRY-97 mutes hop flavor/aroma due to higher flocculation and others say that US-05 does also even though it has lower flocculation.

I know that US-05 was the go-to favorite for a long time, but now seems to be falling out of favor for some reason. I've also considered Lutra Kveik, but some say that it's not as clean as others and I can't keep it at a high temperature anyway.

Overall, I'm just trying to find the best neutral dry yeast that lets malt and hops shine as much as possible. I know opinions and knowledge change over time, so please let me know what you think and give me any suggestions you have that meet my criteria.

Thanks in advance!

I like US-05 or S-04 as good and predictable. Can't say I've ever experienced a Peach aroma or flavor with US-05.

 

[CyberFox]

I'm liking S-04. It's better than it was a few years ago, like the manufacturer cleaned it up and started fresh or something.

Wow. I've always heard that S-04 is VERY English, so it's definitely good to know that they tweaked it. Cool!

 

[CyberFox]

I like US-05 or S-04 as good and predictable. Can't say I've ever experienced a Peach aroma or flavor with US-05.

I haven't gotten peach with US-05 either, but I've heard a fair amount of people say that they got it with cooler temperatures. Some even said it happens at higher temperatures.

 

[AlexKay]

Lallemand Nottingham at 60 F or so is my go-to when I don’t want the yeast to get in the way.

Alternatively, 34/70 is well behaved and neutral over a wide temperature range.

 

[CyberFox]

Lallemand Nottingham at 60 F or so is my go-to when I don’t want the yeast to get in the way.

Alternatively, 34/70 is well behaved and neutral over a wide temperature range.

I used Notty one time and it was so damn tart for me. I think I fermented it at 63, but I can't remember.

Now, 34/70 is thinking outside the box! I wouldn't have thought about using a lager yeast at ale temperatures. Good suggestion!

 

[CyberFox]

Hey @dmtaylor. Just to let you know, when I was researching mash duration, you were the one that convinced me to do shorter mashes. Thanks for that!

 

[AlexKay]

I used Notty one time and it was so damn tart for me. I think I fermented it at 63, but I can't remember.

Now, 34/70 is thinking outside the box! I wouldn't have thought about using a lager yeast at ale temperatures. Good suggestion!

I’ve seen studies showing it clean up into the 70s. Brulosophy says it detected a small but noticeable difference between 60 and 82 … but c’mon, 82 F. My experience with IPLs fermented between 54 and 64 is that it really does get out of the way.

34/70 is expensive for dry yeast. I buy in 10-packs from RiteBrew … currently at $4.19/pack.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Alternatively, 34/70 is well behaved and neutral over a wide temperature range.

I made two recent batches that might be West Coast Pilsners. 100% Pils + Classic Hops + W-34/70 fermented at 62F (raised up to 66F once fermentation slowed). That blank slate really lets the hops shine through. I am not positive I like it better than a classic American Pale Ale recipe, but it seems that everybody that tries it really raves about it (at least the first batch, the second batch is a week old).

I have heard of a well known brewery or two that used 34/70 as their house yeast for IPAs (though I cannot recall any names).

Though I use US-05 often and I really like it. I used BRY-97 on a Pale Ale last year and it turned out great. Both seem like fine yeasts for hoppy beers.

 

[CyberFox]

I made two recent batches that might be West Coast Pilsners. 100% Pils + Classic Hops + W-34/70 fermented at 62F (raised up to 66F once fermentation slowed). That blank slate really lets the hops shine through. I am not positive I like it better than a classic American Pale Ale recipe, but it seems that everybody that tries it really raves about it (at least the first batch, the second batch is a week old).

I have heard of a well known brewery or two that used 34/70 as their house yeast for IPAs (though I cannot recall any names).

Though I use US-05 often and I really like it. I used BRY-97 on a Pale Ale last year and it turned out great. Both seem like fine yeasts for hoppy beers.

Did you notice a difference between US-05 and BRY-97 regarding hop flavor/aroma? I've heard that hotside hops can be muted with highly flocculant yeast, which BRY-97 supposedly is.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Did you notice a difference between US-05 and BRY-97 regarding hop flavor/aroma? I've heard that hotside hops can be muted with highly flocculant yeast, which BRY-97 supposedly is.

I would say to brew a beer split with both yeasts and try it for yourself. Both US-05 and BRY-97 are fairly closely related to the various "Chico" American Ale strains. That is one of the most popular strains for making hoppy Pale Ale and IPAs. Yeah, there are some minor differences between some of the dry and liquid "Chico" offerings, but they are all fine choices for making classic hoppy American beers. You might find you have a personal preference for one over the other.

Personally, I have been happy with using US-05. It is cheaper and more readily available than BRY-97.

 

[Miraculix]

Us05 is a proven work horse. It just works reliably, especially with c-hop heavy beers. The peach only comes into play when fermented at the lower end of its range. Bry97 can have a LONG lag phase so I would try either s04 or us05.

 

[CyberFox]

Has anyone tried CellarScience yeast? I've tried their CALI and ENGLISH yeasts, which are supposed to be similar (if not the same) as US-05 and US-04, but they're a bit cheaper. Instead of just being repackaged Fermentis, it sounds like CellarScience might actually be AEB brand that's packaged by MoreBeer. I could be wrong though. I know barely anything about the AEB brand, but if CellarScience is actually AEB, this looks like CALI and this looks like ENGLISH.

I've tried both and I definitely prefer CALI over ENGLISH. ENGLISH has some minor twang to it that's sticking around and I'm somewhat suspicious that it's muting my flameout hops a bit. Both yeasts are pretty good overall though.

 

[CyberFox]

I’ve seen studies showing it clean up into the 70s. Brulosophy says it detected a small but noticeable difference between 60 and 82 … but c’mon, 82 F. My experience with IPLs fermented between 54 and 64 is that it really does get out of the way.

34/70 is expensive for dry yeast. I buy in 10-packs from RiteBrew … currently at $4.19/pack.

I did some more looking into 34/70 and I checked out the Brulosophy experiments with it. 82 degrees is definitely worst-case scenario and it's pretty damn impressive that it wasn't undrinkable at that temperature, especially since it's a lager yeast.

I've heard of a few cases where 34/70 was compared to US-05, Brulosophy being one of them. 34/70 came out cleaner than US-05 and US-05 had some noticeable fruity and spicy notes. A couple other cases confirmed 34/70 being cleaner and that US-05 actually muted the hops and grains flavor compared to 34/70. It's all subjective, but it's definitely interesting.

34/70 is a bit expensive for dry yeast, but it's still cheaper than liquid and might be worth it anyway. Thanks for the tip on getting it from Ritebrew. I'm going to give it a go!

 

[Miraculix]

I did some more looking into 34/70 and I checked out the Brulosophy experiments with it. 82 degrees is definitely worst-case scenario and it's pretty damn impressive that it wasn't undrinkable at that temperature, especially since it's a lager yeast.

I've heard of a few cases where 34/70 was compared to US-05, Brulosophy being one of them. 34/70 came out cleaner than US-05 and US-05 had some noticeable fruity and spicy notes. A couple other cases confirmed 34/70 being cleaner and that US-05 actually muted the hops and grains flavor compared to 34/70. It's all subjective, but it's definitely interesting.

34/70 is a bit expensive for dry yeast, but it's still cheaper than liquid and might be worth it anyway. Thanks for the tip on getting it from Ritebrew. I'm going to give it a go!

3470 makes a pretty clean ale at room temperature. Did that some times myself.

 

[CyberFox]

I just found out that CellarScience has their own version of 34/70 called GERMAN. It's almost half the price, so I'm going with that.

 

[Miraculix]

I just found out that CellarScience has their own version of 34/70 called GERMAN. It's almost half the price, so I'm going with that.

Could also be something else. So if it doesn't work at room temperature, don't blame 3470!

 

[CyberFox]

Could also be something else. So if it doesn't work at room temperature, don't blame 3470!

Yeah, I know CellarScience GERMAN is likely not 34/70. I think it might actually be this one. I'm planning on fermenting at 62 F since that's at the top of its "optimum fermentation temp," so I should be good.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Us05 is a proven work horse. It just works reliably, especially with c-hop heavy beers. The peach only comes into play when fermented at the lower end of its range. Bry97 can have a LONG lag phase so I would try either s04 or us05.

Seconded on the "US-05 gets a little weird at cooler temperatures". But S-04, between 60F and 64F has been great.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Has anyone tried CellarScience yeast? I've tried their CALI and ENGLISH yeasts, which are supposed to be similar (if not the same) as US-05 and US-04, but they're a bit cheaper.

I have used several pouches of the Cali. I used it on some 1 gallon batches and it seemed fine. I used it on two different batches of IPA, and it came across different than US-05. It had a bit of a peppery note and accentuated the bitterness of the beers. As I recall, one was a split batch made with homegrown hops, and I liked the half fermented with BRY-97 better. The other was an American IPA. That batch was good enough to win a medal, but was just a bit too harsh for me. I am not sure if I just got some off pouches, but I got the same character across two batches.

So, I have not given up on Cellar Science yeast, but I am not that interested in giving Cali a try. I am a bit curious about the Hazy yeast and also about the dried version of Hornindal kveik (which currently is only listed in 500g packs).

 

[CyberFox]

I have used several pouches of the Cali. I used it on some 1 gallon batches and it seemed fine. I used it on two different batches of IPA, and it came across different than US-05. It had a bit of a peppery note and accentuated the bitterness of the beers. As I recall, one was a split batch made with homegrown hops, and I liked the half fermented with BRY-97 better. The other was an American IPA. That batch was good enough to win a medal, but was just a bit too harsh for me. I am not sure if I just got some off pouches, but I got the same character across two batches.

So, I have not given up on Cellar Science yeast, but I am not that interested in giving Cali a try. I am a bit curious about the Hazy yeast and also about the dried version of Hornindal kveik (which currently is only listed in 500g packs).

Look at you bragging about winning medals. Just kidding! It just goes to show that taste is subjective and everyone has their preference. I've tried both US-05 and CellarScience (CS) CALI and I didn't notice any difference, but I also didn't compare them side-by-side.

The yeasts I've considered are US-05, CS CALI, S-04, CS ENGLISH, BRY-97, and Lutra Kveik. I've heard good and bad things about each one of them. Like I said, it's all subjective.

I used CS ENGLISH for a beer I'm drinking now and it gets in the way of the hops and malt a little bit. It's definitely not a bad beer, but there's some slight tartness here and there that annoys me. I like it better than Notty though. A lot of people seem to like Notty, but when I made a beer with it (fermenting at 62 F), the tartness was pretty strong and that keg was a bit of an endurance test to get through. Even the trub smelled horrible while cleaning the fermenter. That's just my experience though, so who knows?

The one that really interests me is 34/70 (or CS GERMAN). I've never used a lager strain and that one sounds like it will give me what I'm looking for: getting the hell out of the way and letting the hops and malt do the talking. One way to find out.

 

[CyberFox]

A few questions for anyone who can answer:
1) Has anyone noticed if higher flocculating yeast mutes the flavor of hotside hops? I've heard this in a few places and I'm not sure if it's true. It seems to me that it wouldn't really matter how quickly or hard a yeast flocculates since it all flocs out in the fridge anyway.

2) For 34/70, would it be best to use double the amount of packs (compared to ale yeast) if fermenting at 64 F?

3) What yeast pitch calculator would you recommend?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Look at you bragging about winning medals. Just kidding! It just goes to show that taste is subjective and everyone has their preference. I've tried both US-05 and CellarScience (CS) CALI and I didn't notice any difference, but I also didn't compare them side-by-side.

I would not be surprised if the little extra bitter notes made it stand out in the competition. I have also wondered if I got a few off pouches. As I recall the first couple pouches of Cali came from More Beer, but the second two pouches I used came from my local homebrew store. I recall fermentation and my numbers were all being as expected.

The one that really interests me is 34/70 (or CS GERMAN). I've never used a lager strain and that one sounds like it will give me what I'm looking for: getting the hell out of the way and letting the hops and malt do the talking. One way to find out.

34/70 fermented at cool ale temps (the low 60F's) seems to be getting more popular these days for hoppy "ales".

 

[Miraculix]

Look at you bragging about winning medals. Just kidding! It just goes to show that taste is subjective and everyone has their preference. I've tried both US-05 and CellarScience (CS) CALI and I didn't notice any difference, but I also didn't compare them side-by-side.

The yeasts I've considered are US-05, CS CALI, S-04, CS ENGLISH, BRY-97, and Lutra Kveik. I've heard good and bad things about each one of them. Like I said, it's all subjective.

I used CS ENGLISH for a beer I'm drinking now and it gets in the way of the hops and malt a little bit. It's definitely not a bad beer, but there's some slight tartness here and there that annoys me. I like it better than Notty though. A lot of people seem to like Notty, but when I made a beer with it (fermenting at 62 F), the tartness was pretty strong and that keg was a bit of an endurance test to get through. Even the trub smelled horrible while cleaning the fermenter. That's just my experience though, so who knows?

The one that really interests me is 34/70 (or CS GERMAN). I've never used a lager strain and that one sounds like it will give me what I'm looking for: getting the hell out of the way and letting the hops and malt do the talking. One way to find out.

If your trub smells that bad, you had an infection with notty. Notty itself is really clean. No tartness, no word smell.

 

[OleBrewing]

I prefer BRY-97 to US-05 do to how clean the yeast drops out. I have had trouble 05 clearing up. Note this naturally and not cold crashing. The 97 is a quicker turn around with in my application.

 

[CyberFox]

If your trub smells that bad, you had an infection with notty. Notty itself is really clean. No tartness, no word smell.

Well, the trub didn't smell god awful, but definitely worse than US-05. I've looked up tartness with Notty and there are others that agree that it's tart. I just now looked it up again and saw that Denny (who I imagine we all know) stopped using it due to its tartness. I still get a slight tartness with CellarScience ENGLISH, but much less than Notty. I haven't used Notty in years, so maybe it got cleaner over time.

I prefer BRY-97 to US-05 do to how clean the yeast drops out. I have had trouble 05 clearing up. Note this naturally and not cold crashing. The 97 is a quicker turn around with in my application.

Yeah, US-05 is definitely powdery. I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing when it comes to hop flavor/aroma. Seems like it can take up to two weeks to drop out naturally.

 

[Velnerj]

I think the process of your hopping will make a much bigger difference than the type of yeast you use. There may be subtle differences in the final flavor usig one "neutral yeast" over another, but to be honest, hop flavor is not going to significantly change if your process is good (or bad).

A clean yeast will not enhance your beer nor will it cover up the flaws. It'll expose your beer to its true character.

Pick a yeast you are comfortable with (and within budget) and experiment with the process/types of hops etc. Almost all suggestions in this thread are good ones and the differences will be minor in comparison to how you are hopping.

I know us-05 often gets a lot of criticism, but it's because it's probably the most widely used dry yeast. Personally I've only been impressed by it each time I use it.

 

[CyberFox]

I think the process of your hopping will make a much bigger difference than the type of yeast you use. There may be subtle differences in the final flavor usig one "neutral yeast" over another, but to be honest, hop flavor is not going to significantly change if your process is good (or bad).

A clean yeast will not enhance your beer nor will it cover up the flaws. It'll expose your beer to its true character.

Pick a yeast you are comfortable with (and within budget) and experiment with the process/types of hops etc. Almost all suggestions in this thread are good ones and the differences will be minor in comparison to how you are hopping.

I know us-05 often gets a lot of criticism, but it's because it's probably the most widely used dry yeast. Personally I've only been impressed by it each time I use it.

I agree that the hopping technique is most important for getting hop flavor/aroma, but the type of yeast can make a huge impact on the outcome of the beer. I've heard someone say that using roughly 3 oz of hops with 34/70 yeast was similar to using 10 oz of hops with another yeast. That's just one opinion, but it's definitely interesting.

I agree that US-05 is solid and I have never had any problems with it. It's always good to weigh your options though.

 

[Miraculix]

Well, the trub didn't smell god awful, but definitely worse than US-05. I've looked up tartness with Notty and there are others that agree that it's tart. I just now looked it up again and saw that Denny (who I imagine we all know) stopped using it due to its tartness. I still get a slight tartness with CellarScience ENGLISH, but much less than Notty. I haven't used Notty in years, so maybe it got cleaner over time.


Yeah, US-05 is definitely powdery. I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing when it comes to hop flavor/aroma. Seems like it can take up to two weeks to drop out naturally.

I've never witnessed that myself, but I might be used to English yeasts that lower the ph further than many other yeasts. I also often use notty in American styles which are dry hopped, which increases ph.

 

[dmtaylor]

A few questions for anyone who can answer:
1) Has anyone noticed if higher flocculating yeast mutes the flavor of hotside hops? I've heard this in a few places and I'm not sure if it's true. It seems to me that it wouldn't really matter how quickly or hard a yeast flocculates since it all flocs out in the fridge anyway.

2) For 34/70, would it be best to use double the amount of packs (compared to ale yeast) if fermenting at 64 F?

3) What yeast pitch calculator would you recommend?

1) I'm personally not sure how flocculation affects hop flavor.

2) Temperature is the only thing that matters. One pack of W-34/70 is more than enough for up to 6 gallons fermented at 64 F unless your OG is super high (like above 1.080).

3) I don't use a calculator; they are all super conservative and just plain wrong, especially when it comes to dry yeast. Any pack of dry yeast will last for up to 10 years in refrigeration with minimal loss of viability. It is one of the greatest advantages of dry yeast.

I've looked up tartness with Notty and there are others that agree that it's tart. I just now looked it up again and saw that Denny (who I imagine we all know) stopped using it due to its tartness.

Denny is wrong sometimes.

Every one of us is wrong sometimes. Including me.

I have not experienced the "tartness" that others have with Notty. I've experienced tartness with many yeasts. But not that one. Maybe "tartness" is not the right word?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Denny is wrong sometimes.

Yeah...definitely he is not my favorite of the well known homebrew authors.

I have not experienced the "tartness" that others have with Notty. I've experienced tartness with many yeasts. But not that one. Maybe "tartness" is not the right word?

Years back I did experience a tartness with a few batches of S-04. Dave has noted that Fermentis may have cleaned up S-04. My recent batch of English Bitter with S-04 was wonderful. So S-04 is back on my list of yeasts to use more.

I have not used Nottingham in a while, but I threw a pack at a Simcoe Pale Ale last year. That was a wonderful beer that I could not stop drinking. It makes me want to use Nottingham more.

 

[CyberFox]

I might give Notty another try at some point. I'd be really surprised if I got an infection when I used Notty because I'm pretty damn careful when it comes to sanitation, but weirder things have happened.

As far as flocculation affecting hop flavor/aroma, the main thing I can think of that might affect it is dry hopping with yeast still in suspension and the yeast taking the hop oils with them as they floc out. No idea if that's actually true though, like so many things with brewing.

 

[Malticulous]

I split a fifteen gallon batch of a Citra pale ale with US-05, Apex San Diego and w34/70. I tapped the Apex first and it is gone. It seemed to me to have a more full hop flavor than US-05 that is on tap now. I haven tapped w34/70 yet.

 

[CyberFox]

I split a fifteen gallon batch of a Citra pale ale with US-05, Apex San Diego and w34/70. I tapped the Apex first and it is gone. It seemed to me to have a more full hop flavor than US-05 that is on tap now. I haven tapped w34/70 yet.

Very cool experiment. I've never heard of Apex yeast, but I'm definitely interested. We're starting to get almost spoiled with the amount of choices in dry yeast, but I can't complain.

If you could update us on how the 34/70 turns out, that would be awesome!

 

[bwible]

Lallemand Nottingham at 60 F or so is my go-to when I don’t want the yeast to get in the way.

Alternatively, 34/70 is well behaved and neutral over a wide temperature range.

Understand that 34/70 is a lager yeast. Almost every company makes one - look for the description that says something like “This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world.” Wyeast 2124, sorry I don’t know White Labs numbers off the top of my head.

If you make a pale ale with this yeast you are making IPL or I guess APL or cold IPA, whatever they are calling it now.

Most lager strains want to be fermented at around 50 degrees. 34/70 is unique in that several recent studies have found you can make acceptable lagers with it by fermenting at ale temps and then lagering the resulting beer. If you only make ale with it at only ale temps and you do not lager the resulting beer I am not sure what your results will be.

Make ales with ale yeast. Use lager yeast for lagers. They are genetically different.

 

[AlexKay]

Make ales with ale yeast. Use lager yeast for lagers. They are genetically different.

Genetics, schmenetics. 34/70 is good for neutral ales: I've made cream ale with it, and American stout, and Grodziskie. And for IPAs (call them IPLs, if you like), once you're adding that level of hops, you'll never be able to tell the difference.

 

[dmtaylor]

Most lager strains want to be fermented at around 50 degrees. 34/70 is unique in that several recent studies have found you can make acceptable lagers with it by fermenting at ale temps and then lagering the resulting beer. If you only make ale with it at only ale temps and you do not lager the resulting beer I am not sure what your results will be.

Make ales with ale yeast. Use lager yeast for lagers. They are genetically different.

W-34/70 is anything but unique. I'm making great lagers with various pastorianus yeasts in mid to upper 60s F, including S-189, Diamond, S-23, WLP833, you name it, I'm trying it. Genetically a different species, yes. Full of esters and off-flavors fermented warm... well...... not so much. Experiment, and find out.

 

[CyberFox]

W-34/70 is anything but unique. I'm making great lagers with various pastorianus yeasts in mid to upper 60s F, including S-189, Diamond, S-23, WLP833, you name it, I'm trying it. Genetically a different species, yes. Full of esters and off-flavors fermented warm... well...... not so much. Experiment, and find out.

How would you describe the characterisitics of each of the yeast you mentioned when fermented warm? Some cleaner than others?

Is there an optimal temperature in the 60s you'd recommend?

 

[dmtaylor]

How would you describe the characterisitics of each of the yeast you mentioned when fermented warm? Some cleaner than others?

Is there an optimal temperature in the 60s you'd recommend?

I've been very happy with my results with S-189 and Diamond, several times each. Diacetyl and sulfur were thrown but very short lived. The other two, very low esters but not as much as you might think. And actually, S-23 is known to have slight esters anyway, that one is supposed to turn out that way. WLP833 is the one I would have to experiment with more to know for sure what it is capable of.

I'd aim for 65 F with any of these, for experimental purposes. Same as with most ale strains, I would not exceed 70 F except perhaps as a wackier experiment.