berliner weisse question. Mind blown!

[surgical_ass]

Just picked up the newest zymurgy and saw an award winning fruit fermenter berliner. I have not done any souring so this may be common practice but I am trying to get more info and am having trouble finding any. The direction read mash as normal collect wort no boil drop to 90f pitch lacto sit in fermenter for 6 days at 90f then put in kettle and boil with hop additions as normal and pitch an American ale yeast ferment as usual. It is on pg 71 at the top. Its something that I have never thought about and thought it was a pretty cool way of going about it. It was the gold winner in the fruit need category. Looking for experience or comments. Thanks!

 

[ghohn]

I don't have the issue of the magazine you are referring to but 6 days at 90f is longer than any other instructions I've ever seen. Most call for 1-3 days to kettle sour. It depends on your lacto and how sour you want it. Sample every 12 hours or so and measure with a pH meter (or don't) but always taste the sample so you know when it's time.

As far as the other part, it's called 'no boil'. Yes, the collected runnings aren't boiled. For me, the results are a little too 'rustic' for my liking so I boil but you don't have to nor do you have to use an American yeast to finish. Ainsructionsny yeast that can survive the low pH environment will suffice. My favorite go at the berliner category thus far has been the ass end of a barley wine (second running portion - 1.040 wort), boiled, soured with Swanson's L Planatrum for a couple of days. The bacteria brought the wort down to 1.030 and brought about a ton of clean, beautiful acidity. I added yeast in the form of OYL-057 because I had it on hand but the pH proved to be too much for the yeast. That said, the beer was so lemony and tart the sugars balanced the whole thing out. Drank it as it was. 1.25% afternoon delight.

 

[surgical_ass]

I don't have the issue of the magazine you are referring to but 6 days at 90f is longer than any other instructions I've ever seen. Most call for 1-3 days to kettle sour. It depends on your lacto and how sour you want it. Sample every 12 hours or so and measure with a pH meter (or don't) but always taste the sample so you know when it's time.

As far as the other part, it's called 'no boil'. Yes, the collected runnings aren't boiled. For me, the results are a little too 'rustic' for my liking so I boil but you don't have to nor do you have to use an American yeast to finish. Ainsructionsny yeast that can survive the low pH environment will suffice. My favorite go at the berliner category thus far has been the ass end of a barley wine (second running portion - 1.040 wort), boiled, soured with Swanson's L Planatrum for a couple of days. The bacteria brought the wort down to 1.030 and brought about a ton of clean, beautiful acidity. I added yeast in the form of OYL-057 because I had it on hand but the pH proved to be too much for the yeast. That said, the beer was so lemony and tart the sugars balanced the whole thing out. Drank it as it was. 1.25% afternoon delight.

Great info! Another curiosity I had was how the gravity was affected by a 6 day ferment I do not have any experience with sours. If the gravity went as low as it could then you boiled it I assume it would concentrate Any remaing sugars so that fermentation would continue with the 2nd yeast? I know the 6 day primary isn't the norm but I'm just going by the original recipe. After secondary fermentation is done he added 4lbs of pineapple and 4 lbs of coconut fwiw. Thanks again!

 

[Calder]

I like to boil for 5 minutes before I add the lacto, to make sure there is nothing in there.

6 days at 90 F may, or may not be long enough. I usually leave mine 7 to 8 days at 100 F. Taste the wort before you add any yeast. You want it sour before the yeast is added. Once the yeast starts making alcohol, the lacto will slow down or even stop, so you need to ensure it is sour enough before the yeast is added.

Also, yeast does not do well in low PH environments. I generally add 2X the recommended yeast to a Berliner that I would add to a regular beer (use a cake).

I don't boil between the lacto and yeast, but it doesn't hurt.

 

[surgical_ass]

I like to boil for 5 minutes before I add the lacto, to make sure there is nothing in there.

6 days at 90 F may, or may not be long enough. I usually leave mine 7 to 8 days at 100 F. Taste the wort before you add any yeast. You want it sour before the yeast is added. Once the yeast starts making alcohol, the lacto will slow down or even stop, so you need to ensure it is sour enough before the yeast is added.

Also, yeast does not do well in low PH environments. I generally add 2X the recommended yeast to a Berliner that I would add to a regular beer (use a cake).

I don't boil between the lacto and yeast, but it doesn't hurt.

Is there any way to counter the low ph before the 2nd yeast is pitched?

 

[chrilr]

Lower ph = sour beer

 

[surgical_ass]

Lower ph = sour beer

Yea after a little more research today I realize that was a dumb question. What I can't seem to find is very many ppl talking about boiling after the initial sit with the lacto in the primary. I'm assuming it is due to it being an uncommon practice. Still piecing this together and learning tons about the world of sours!

 

[CA_Mouse]

I have done this several times, not just for Berliner Weiss, but for Sour Pale and Sour IPAs. Rather than transfer to a fermenter, I do a quick boil (no hops) to kill off anything unwanted in the wort, allow it to cool to about 100*F, pitch a couple of GoodBelly StraightShot probiotic drinks into the wort, cover the kettle with the lid and pump some CO2 through the drain valve, wrap the lid with plastic wrap and wrap the kettle in a heavy moving blanket for 2 to 3 days. Check the pH and, if at the desired level, boil as normal adding hops. I, also, pitch a double sized starter because the low pH will affect the yeast. It will take a couple of extra hours for full fermentation to start, but you don't have to worry about contaminating anything in your brewery this way. Once it is done fermenting, keg or bottle as you normally would.

 

[chrilr]

As stated above you can boil so you don't need a second set of sour gear. It also makes those sour pale/ipa's possible.

 

[tagz]

Seems like poor instructions. As people have said above, boil briefly before pitching the lacto. 24-72 hours is the norm with sour wort. Six days seems excessive.

 

[IslandLizard]

Seems like poor instructions. As people have said above, boil briefly before pitching the lacto. 24-72 hours is the norm with sour wort. Six days seems excessive.

Overall, Zymurgy is pretty good, but more than occasionally they have recipes mixed in that are erratic, either by instructions, ingredients, or both.

Souring without boiling will keep all the microorganisms from the mash alive and they will get a head start on souring the wort to give it that "rustic" flavor, as @ghohn eloquently stated. Results can be hit or miss. I'd pasteurize at 165-170 for 10-15 minutes, or give it a boil. Do not add hops, Lacto doesn't like them. Chill and pitch your lacto strain or culture. A starter may be needed.

 

[tagz]

Yeah, it's a gamble. But if you're going with a commercial pitch, you might as well boil/pasteurize to ensure you don't end up with vomit/foot/cheese aromas.

If you are going to sour with grains, you need to pay much more attention to pH and oxygen.

 

[helibrewer]

Yeah, sour mashing is different from traditional sour beer production. Since the grain is covered with Lacto holding the high temp encourages its growth, you can even throw in a handful of malt after mashing to add more Lacto. You must monitor pH closely, don't go by the number of days.

When the pH is where you want it, boil, this kills the bacteria and keeps the beer from continuing to sour during the yeast fermentation.

Sour mashing has it's risks since it is a bit unpredictable. A more predictable method is to mash and boil normally then pitch an ale yeast and L. delbrueckii (WLP677 or WY5335) together and ferment at 67. Carb to 3.5-4 volumes.