Belgian Spicy-ness

[Mongoose40]

So I posted a while back about my frustrations with my second attempt at a dubbel. I drank the first one after a month in the bottles and it actually wasn't bad. Definitely a good, very drinkable beer - but still not exactly what I am looking for.

Every trappiste style beer I drink has that unmistakable "spicy" type flavor. Kind of a clove, mixed a little bit with maybe banana or plum. While I am definitely getting better at the trappiste style, I still can't capture that flavor.

Has anyone made a beer that is very strong in the clove-like spicyness? The latest yeast I used was White Labs' abbey style (I believe its 500?). Is temperature really the most important thing to achieve that flavor? What about time? Is it possible that that flavor just comes out much later in conditioning? I always thought conditioning was more just to mellow the flavors, and blend the ones that already exist though...

 

[Polboy]

the longer in the bottle the better for belgian beers, i think they peak around 4-6months in the bottle

 

[triangulum33]

I think fermentation temps are important. 70*+...

 

[jtakacs]

underpitching might help as well.

 

[passedpawn]

I've got a great flavor from Wyeast Abbey II 1762. Just finished a B. Strong Dark Ale (Quad) and it's got some clove and lots of spice with just barely noticeable alchohol bite (10%). Fermented at about 68 for 1 week, then room temperature for 3 more weeks.

I've got 10g in kegs now

 

[Ericbme]

I've got a great flavor from Wyeast Abbey II 1762. Just finished a B. Strong Dark Ale (Quad) and it's got some clove and lots of spice with just barely noticeable alchohol bite (10%). Fermented at about 68 for 1 week, then room temperature for 3 more weeks.

I've got 10g in kegs now

+1 I did a Belgian tripel with wyeast 1762. I fermented at room temp 72-74ish. Strong banana and spicy flavors with no alcohol bite (8.5). Delish!

 

[Mongoose40]

What kind of starters did you two use?

 

[triangulum33]

Just use mrmalty.com as your guide.
Personally, I only make a starter if the beer (any style) is above 1.055. Works for me.

 

[WilliamWS]

For dubbels I like the WY3787 (WLP530). It's the Westmalle strain. Temperature is very important in getting the proper flavor out of the yeast. I like to pitch in the mid 60's and let it ride up to whatever it wants to-AT LEAST mid 70's and it doesn't bother me if it breaks 80. If brewing in the middle of the summer when ambient in my place can be over 80 I do have to rein it in a bit.

Another important component in brewing an authentic dubbel is using dark candi syrup (you're not going to get the same flavors out of the rock candi). It's a little pricey if you buy it (but worth it) or you can make your own (do a search for the method).

 

[passedpawn]

What kind of starters did you two use?

4L, decanted. I might have stepped it up and made 4L more, but I don't remember. For whatever reason, I don't ever record starter info in my notes. Guess I should.

 

[beergolf]

For dubbels I like the WY3787 (WLP530). It's the Westmalle strain. Temperature is very important in getting the proper flavor out of the yeast. I like to pitch in the mid 60's and let it ride up to whatever it wants to-AT LEAST mid 70's and it doesn't bother me if it breaks 80. If brewing in the middle of the summer when ambient in my place can be over 80 I do have to rein it in a bit.

Another important component in brewing an authentic dubbel is using dark candi syrup (you're not going to get the same flavors out of the rock candi). It's a little pricey if you buy it (but worth it) or you can make your own (do a search for the method).

I also like 3787. I use the same method of pitching low and slowly letting the temp rise. I get good results using that method. Dark Candi Syrup does give a good flavor to the brews.

 

[Mongoose40]

That could be one of my problems. I tend to cool to about 75-80 and pitch the yeast. I immediately put it in a room that is around 65-68, which is what I was considering my starting temp, but I didn't really factor in the fact that the wort itself still needs to cool - and THEN rise. Pretty obvious factor to ignore, but that's me I suppose.

Next time I'll make sure that wort is cool when I pitch, and then I'll let her climb to the low 70's.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'd be careful with the temperature climb. My second (and worst) beer was a Quadrupel made with Wyeast 1214. I started fermentation at 68 and let it go as it wished from there. Thing took off like a rocket, and ended up reaching around 90 by the 2nd or 3rd day. Thing turned out undrinkably hot and solventy and full of fusels. Only batch I've had to dump (after 8 months of aging in the bottle it was worse than after 3 weeks). Since then all my Belgians I do let it rise, but I hold it back so it's only going up a couple degrees a day, and cap it in the mid 70s. Good and estery and phenolic, with minimal if any alcohol heat.

 

[beergolf]

I'd be careful with the temperature climb. My second (and worst) beer was a Quadrupel made with Wyeast 1214. I started fermentation at 68 and let it go as it wished from there. Thing took off like a rocket, and ended up reaching around 90 by the 2nd or 3rd day. Thing turned out undrinkably hot and solventy and full of fusels. Only batch I've had to dump (after 8 months of aging in the bottle it was worse than after 3 weeks). Since then all my Belgians I do let it rise, but I hold it back so it's only going up a couple degrees a day, and cap it in the mid 70s. Good and estery and phenolic, with minimal if any alcohol heat.

The key is pitching low and not letting it rise too quickly. The fallicy that Belgian yeasts can be fermented hot is not true. After about three days you can let it get as hot as you want, in fact it helps the yeats finish low. But too early and fusels happen....

 

[Qhrumphf]

The key is pitching low and not letting it rise too quickly. The fallicy that Belgian yeasts can be fermented hot is not true. After about three days you can let it get as hot as you want, in fact it helps the yeats finish low. But too early and fusels happen....

Oh, I know. Just wish I knew that 2 years ago when I made that Quad. Heh. I learned that lesson pretty quickly after that beer. Haven't had a problem since. But as far as I'm concerned, Belgians should be fermented hot the same way English beer should be served warm- only when relative to other beers. And even then those phrasings are misleading.

 

[triangulum33]

Another thing to remember is that the temp of the active fermentation can be 10* higher than ambient air.

 

[Mongoose40]

So if I cooled the wort to between 65-68, and then I put it in a basement with ambient temps of around the same - I could let her sit there for about 2 or 3 days, and then I'd be ok moving it into a room that is closer to 70-72?

Also, how does it end up getting to 90 degrees? How warm was that room?

 

[beergolf]

So if I cooled the wort to between 65-68, and then I put it in a basement with ambient temps of around the same - I could let her sit there for about 2 or 3 days, and then I'd be ok moving it into a room that is closer to 70-72?

Also, how does it end up getting to 90 degrees? How warm was that room?

That would work great.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Also, how does it end up getting to 90 degrees? How warm was that room?

As I said above, this was a few years ago and my note taking wasn't fantastic since I was just starting. But the OG on that beer was approx 1.100, and the yeast went insane (LOTS of blowoff despite 2 gallons of headspace). The apartment would have been approx. 75*F with the bucket just sitting on the floor, and I recall the stick-on thermometer on the bucking reading about 90 degrees at its peak. Don't know how it climbed up so much, but that beer taught me a hard lesson in the necessity of temperature control.

 

[Mongoose40]

But the OG on that beer was approx 1.100, and the yeast went insane (LOTS of blowoff despite 2 gallons of headspace).

Wow. I bet that looked like a full boil.