Belgian Quad: Hertog Jan Grand Prestige clone attempt

[luckybeagle]

Hi all, I'd love some feedback on this recipe before I give it a go:

I sucked down numerous Grand Prestiges during our year in Holland--it was excellent bang for the buck at about a Euro apiece ($1.10ish) and 10% ABV. I'd love to recreate it and have come up with the following recipe after consulting some clone recipes in Dutch and doing my best to translate and convert:

6 gallon batch
80% Brewhouse efficiency (eherms with wort recirculation throughout mash, low estimate and new system)
OG: 1.088
FG: 1.011
ABV: 10.09%
82% apparent attenuation with WY3787
SRM: 20
IBU: 21
BU:GU ratio of 0.25
90 minute boil

7 lbs CaraAmber (23L)
6 lbs Bohemian Pilsner (1.9L)
2.5 lbs cane sugar
0.5 lbs Crystal 150 (150L)
1.0 lbs Flaked Wheat (2L)

Mash schedule (copying Rochefort in BLAM, since I like the mouthfeel and want good fermentability):

131 for 15 minutes
144 for 1 hour
158 for 15 minutes
168 mashout followed by fly sparge

Hops:

16g Perle at 60 minutes (8.2AA)
1 oz Saaz at 30 minutes (3.5 AA)

Yeast:
WY3787 pitched at 380 billion cells (about 13 oz decanted slurry)

Fermentation schedule:
64F pitch, raise temperature 2 degrees per day until reaching 76F, hold until FG is reached

I've never brewed any Belgian with CaraAmber as a base malt, nor have I done a quad or dubbel without using candisyrup, so I'm curious (and a little concerned) about doing this. Would anyone care to weigh in on this recipe and process? Please and thank you!

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I've never brewed any Belgian with CaraAmber as a base malt

Caraamber isn't a base malt! THere's nothing in your recipe to provide enzymes for conversion.

Edit: Just noticed there is some bohemium pilsner. You still have way too much caraamber though.

 

[madscientist451]

Thanks for posting, never heard of the beer.
I hunted around on google and came up with this:

I have been able to get the Hertog Jan Grand Prestige recipe.
It says, Hertog Jan mout. Does anyone know what kind of malt that is.

They use lager malt (40.5%), Hertog Jan malt (47%) and wheat starch (12.5%).
Furthermore, lots of light candy syrup and caramel.

Does anyone have an idea what kind of yeast we can use?

El Kees

Source:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=https://www.hobbybrouwen.nl/forum/index.php?topic=3213.0&prev=search

I'm wondering about the candy syrup in the above post, maybe a dark candy syrup?
I'd delete the C-150 and use malted wheat instead of flaked wheat.

 

[luckybeagle]

Thanks gents. I'm a little tempted to just emulate a BDS/Quad from Candisyrup's website. Seems far less risky. This one appealed to me for nostalgic reasons and because there was no dark candisyrup. That stuff is expensive! But I'd rather make a good beer than one that *might* remind me of my past life. If it didn't take so long to age these beers, I might be tempted to try it. Time is precious!

The cara amber the recipe I found called for about 40% Cara Amber 60 (23L I think). That definitely caught my eye since all of my Belgian style grist bills have been 75%+ Pilsner malt.

The recipe I was referencing:

Batch Size (L): 11.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.33
Anticipated OG: 1.094 Plato: 22.52
Anticipated EBC: 41.1
Anticipated IBU: 20.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

1.75 kg. Cara-amber 60
1.50 kg. Pilsmout (Pilsner malt)
0.50 kg. Witte kandy (white/clear candy)
0.48 kg. Tarwebloem (wheat flour)
0.10 kg. karamel 150 (Caramel 150)

14.00 g. Hallertau Perle Whole 6.10% first WH
6.00 g. Saaz Whole 2.90% 30 min

Yeast
Westmalle

Hmm, I'll think on this some more. Such a commitment to brew a beer, store it, and not touch it for a year...

 

[brownni5]

A couple thoughts:

1. I agree with the above - ditch or at least minimize the CaraAmber.

2. You can make a big BDS without Candi syrup. You brew as many Belgians around here as just about anybody. If you haven't read Brew Like A Monk, I propose you do so. Lots of good tips there and some good recipe ideas. Radical Brewing by Randy Mosher gives some good ideas for using different sugars (and explains how to make a Candi syrup alternative in BLAM). I'm drinking a brew with trubinado right now - the complexity from that sugar really comes through nicely.

3. Just because a big beer can age well doesn't mean it has to. I'm getting ready to sample my latest BDS - it's about 7 weeks old now, about 4 of those in the bottle. It might get better with age, but if you don't drink it young, how would you know?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Also, if you do want to use candi syrup but don't want the cost, have a go at making this
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/20-lb-of-sugar-and-a-jar-of-yeast-nutrient.114837/
They're a bit different to the 'real' syrups, but still very tasty and make some delicious dubbels and quads.

 

[luckybeagle]

Thanks everyone for the wisdom! I am going to scrap this recipe and start over. Of the beers I've brewed, the ones I've enjoyed most--and have turned out the best--were not clone attempts, but rather carefully assembled recipes following style guidelines and input from other brewers/articles (such as Josh Weikert's Make Your Best series).

I've read BLAM and keep it on my nightstand, but it's been a few months since I cracked it open. Maybe I'll consult some of the BDS recipes and section.

I tried making my own candisugar before--it turned out decent. I brewed a dubbel with it, but ultimately the dubbel just lacked that depth and richness that I felt would've been present had I bucked up and bought some D-90. It felt like bending over dollars to pick up dimes. My previous dubbel had a similar grain bill (but with D90) and tasted significantly better.

Being ever cheap, I might give it another go at a later time... but I'd LOVE to have my next BDS be something I can't keep stocked, haha.