Bad experience with Williams Brewing

[Chad]

<sigh> I don't get the trolling accusation. The OP was disappointed with his purchase. I would have been, too, especially on such a large order of yeast. Perfectly reasonable. I probably would have sent it back, but asking for a partial refund because a good portion of it would "expire" or pass its sell-by date before any reasonable expectation of use is also a valid request. Yes, I know dry yeast can remain viable for a long time. That's beside the point. While Williams did nothing wrong they also missed a chance to go above and beyond.

Posting this experience was also perfectly reasonable. There are threads here every day about experiences with vendors, both positive and negative. Given the number of online vendors now available, and the great lengths many of them will go to to satisfy a customer, knowing how this turned out (whether you agree with the OP or not) helps everybody figure out where they want to spend their money.

Chad

 

[Actuary]

For everyone who thinks I am way out of line here - what would your opinion be if I sent back the yeast in late May given it is still within their 60 day return policy. Say they get it late in the day on 5/31. Is that a reasonable action for me to do...I am going by their policy, and the yeast is still non-expired.

What if I send it back after it expires in June? Still within 60 days.

Note - I have no plans to do either, because I think that would be a pretty d1ck move, but just wondering if the same low expectations and strict application of the rules applies to my decision as well?

 

[carnevoodoo]

For everyone who thinks I am way out of line here - what would your opinion be if I sent back the yeast in late May given it is still within their 60 day return policy. Say they get it late in the day on 5/31. Is that a reasonable action for me to do...I am going by their policy, and the yeast is still non-expired.

What if I send it back after it expires in June? Still within 60 days.

Note - I have no plans to do either, because I think that would be a pretty d1ck move, but just wondering if the same low expectations and strict application of the rules applies to my decision as well?

You'd be doing it just to be a dick. They'd probably go, "oh no, 4 dollars in yeast." and throw it away. They probably have better things to do.

 

[Malticulous]

William's is awesome, who else ships same/next day?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Actuary, I'm a bit surprised by the responses. And imo many of the responses you got illustrate why WB can send out old yeast and get away with it (even applauded it seems). Apparently some will settle for that kind of product. Suckers. Also, there are lots of lemmings out there who will read some responses and then just pile on and there is def some of that in this thread.

IMO, if a supplier deals in perishable items and in items where freshness counts...sending out items that are almost past expiration; or even 'not fresh', is either bad business or a mistake (which everyone makes occasionally)...and if it's a mistake then the supplier should make it right.

I think asking him to spend $10 shipping to return $20 worth of items (esp when it was the supplier who was at fault)...especially ones that are past expiration and won't be useable...is a bit much. If WB really had the desire to make it right they could have determined the yeast was old without him sending it back. But it appears they just read straight from the 'WB policy' book. I can almost guarantee that the two suppliers I use would not have handled it this way.

I also think it's OK to post it here. But I'm just a 'speak with my wallet' person and I would just do business elsewhere. I went through several online suppliers before I found the one that was right for me.

 

[Actuary]

You'd be doing it just to be a dick. They'd probably go, "oh no, 4 dollars in yeast." and throw it away. They probably have better things to do.

Of course I would be, but I don't see how it would be any different than them sending the yeast to me, as a customer, in late May with an expiration date of 5/2009. If there is a set of rules to play by, why would "intention" matter as long as the rules were followed?

 

[Brewmasters Warehouse]

William's is awesome, who else ships same/next day?

We consistantly ship same/next day for the vast majority of our orders.

 

[Medo]

Ahoy hoy,
What an interesting thread, considering I just ordered 2 dozen dry yeasties from williams friday. 12 s-04 12 05s. I always order bulk dry yeast from williams, and its always here in less of a week, which, up here in alaska means more to us then to folks in the lower 48, and, it always makes beer for me.
Oh, and just a heads up, you dont have to send that yeast back UPS, they actually do deal with USPS. I get all my stuff shipped priority mail to up here.
Just an FYI.
Reality is a bear, and it doesnt always agree with what is just, right, or indifferent. Its reality. And thats the truth.
Anyways, I never buy less then 2 dozen dry yeasts, and so far, in real life, the score for failure via yeast, is dry 0 loss, liquid 2 or more, due to bad yeast, either expired, frozen, cooked, or whatnot. And at 9 bucks a shot in Alaska for liquid that may be damaged from shipping(from the home brew store; I would never order liquid yeast mail order, it wouldnt make it to up here with the shipping times, partly why the stores yeast is hosed as well), those 1.65 always work no matter what safales are the cats meow in my book.
Your millage may vary. Caveat Emptor

 

[Actuary]

I think asking him to spend $10 shipping to return $20 worth of items (esp when it was the supplier who was at fault)...especially ones that are past expiration and won't be useable...is a bit much.

To be fair, they did offer to cover the return shipping. Of course, that doesn't include the cost for me to ship something - buy a package/envlope, take to post office / ups for postage, etc, stuff that I can't do efficiently because I mail packages about once a year. In the end, $10 vs the hassle of doing it made me lean towards seeing what WB would do about it without the shipping it back option. I also only asked for a partial refund in the form of a credit that would force me to spend more money at WB.

I would have been happy, they would have unloaded some old yeast at 50% of retail instead of dumping it in a month (hopefully the do toss it if it doesn't sell by then), and I give them another shot. Seemed like win-win to me.

 

[Actuary]

Ahoy hoy,
What an interesting thread, considering I just ordered 2 dozen dry yeasties from williams friday. 12 s-04 12 05s. I always order bulk dry yeast from williams, and its always here in less of a week, which, up here in alaska means more to us then to folks in the lower 48, and, it always makes beer for me.

The 05s I got were just fine - I think they were dated 2010 or 2011 - as you would normally expect.

 

[Evan!]

Actuary, I'm a bit surprised by the responses. And imo many of the responses you got illustrate why WB can send out old yeast and get away with it (even applauded it seems). Apparently some will settle for that kind of product. Suckers. Also, there are lots of lemmings out there who will read some responses and then just pile on and there is def some of that in this thread.

That "old yeast" is still within the date range, and they offered him a refund. I don't see how acknowledging that dry yeast, even far past its expiration date, performs great, makes one a "sucker", either. "That kind of product" is perfectly fine. As I said, if he uses it and it doesn't ferment, then he's got a beef, but the fact that he was offered a refund and still was not satisfied just goes to show that there's no pleasing some people. I've never used WB so I've got no dog in this fight, I just hate to see people who think that just because they're a customer, they should get whatever they want. Believe me, I've had my fair share of terrible customer experiences...as for the yeast thing, I once had a smackpack show up from AHS that was already swollen. I called and asked if they could send a replacement, and the girl said "the yeast is still fine, just go ahead and use it, and if it doesn't work, then we'll send a replacement". I did, and it was fine (I knew it would be).

And as others have said, it's actually still before the packaging expiration date. I could understand his beef a bit more if they were already passed expiration when they boxed them up. But as it stands, I think it's entirely acceptable to send out yeast that has not "expired" yet, unless you have made your intentions clear when ordering.

Think about it---what if I ordered 50 packets of yeast, and they were one year away from expiring? I'd never use 50 packets of dry yeast in a year...so would I also be justified in saying "man, by the time I get to using some of these, they'll be expired!"? No.

 

[Actuary]

Think about it---what if I ordered 50 packets of yeast, and they were one year away from expiring? I'd never use 50 packets of dry yeast in a year...so would I also be justified in saying "man, by the time I get to using some of these, they'll be expired!"? No.

50% of the remaining life of a perishable good is several orders of magnitude more reasonable than 5% of the remaining life.

Remaining life = time until expiration date in this case.

 

[llazy_llama]

Actuary, I'm a bit surprised by the responses. And imo many of the responses you got illustrate why WB can send out old yeast and get away with it (even applauded it seems).

Because 99% of us know that dried yeast past it's expiration date will be just fine?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Think about it---what if I ordered 50 packets of yeast, and they were one year away from expiring? I'd never use 50 packets of dry yeast in a year...so would I also be justified in saying "man, by the time I get to using some of these, they'll be expired!"? No.

Totally different Evan. The stuff arrived 'almost' past expiration date. When you buy milk do you buy it one day before it expires? Would you be OK with a dairy supplier that sold you milk one day before it expires?

As I said...they are a company dealing in items that are perishable and where 'freshness counts'. It wasn't fresh or even reasonably close to it. Poor QC.

This whole arguement; "Well, technically it was still within the exp date." is bogus. You wouldn't buy milk or meat that way and you shouldn't have to settle for it with yeast either...or any other perishable product where freshness counts. It's just poor QC.

 

[HenryHill]

50% of the remaining life of a perishable good is several orders of magnitude more reasonable than 5% of the remaining life.

Remaining life = time until expiration date in this case.

You are not guaranteed to have 2 years of shelf life. They're only responsibility is to get it to you before the expiration. They offered a full refund and would cover shipping. You should still have the original shipping container.

Now, after 10 pages of people telling you to let it go, you are still arguing with them.

It may near the Time or some time after the Time, that you start to resemble a ******, and not a mere fool anymore.

 

[Brewer_Steve]

I would have been happy, they would have unloaded some old yeast at 50% of retail instead of dumping it in a month (hopefully the do toss it if it doesn't sell by then), and I give them another shot. Seemed like win-win to me.

Yes, what you proposed seems perfectly reasonable to you, and me, and probably a lot of other people, but it's the shop's prerogative to decide whether they want to strictly follow their return policy or to follow your suggested resolution. It's not your prerogative. It's theirs.

Who knows... maybe you were dealing with a low-level employee who doesn't have the authority to do anything but follow policy to the letter.

So, they won't resolve the situation like you've suggested. Oh well.
They've suggested another totally reasonable solution which you could follow if you choose. It is 100% your prerogative to return the yeast if you aren't satisfied.

IMO, you should do one of the following:
1) brew with the yeast, and perhaps post a little warning about asking about expiry dates before ordering.
2) return the yeast.

Personally, I would have been perturbed to receive that much yeast so close to expiry, but I think the store has offered you a perfectly reasonable way to resolve the problem. You seem to be pissed that the way the store chose to resolve the problem isn't the exact way that you would solve the problem.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Because 99% of us know that dried yeast past it's expiration date will be just fine?

I don't think this could be less relevant. It has an exp date and the yeast was not fresh.

 

[llazy_llama]

I don't think this could be less relevant. It has an exp date and the yeast was not fresh.

If all it takes to make you happy is an arbitrary set of numbers printed on the pack (since we've already established that the expiration date doesn't have any real effect on the contents of the package) just pencil in 9/09/2100 on the pack and be content.

 

[olllllo]

This thread has about 5% remaining life.

 

[mmb]

I imagine it was the refund half without returning product portion that threw up red flags. If it isn't in policy it won't happen for most online shops. The folks on the phone usually have no ability to go out of policy.

Maybe time to start looking at yeast washing?

 

[Evan!]

50% of the remaining life of a perishable good is several orders of magnitude more reasonable than 5% of the remaining life.

Remaining life = time until expiration date in this case.

I know, because once that expiry date passes, all those yeast instantly die.

 

[BlindLemonLars]

I would say that I am a bit surprised at the strong reaction to my OP. Oh well - it has been a good way to get involved in a new forum - I posted frequently on the brewboard but have been sitting on the sidelines here up till now.

I think the strong reaction is partially because we realize most of these online shops are actually rather small, "mom & pop" type operations. The type of business that already has a rather thin profit margin, and that can be grievously damaged by just a few angry reviews on a big brewing forum. Most of us have been REALLY happy with Williams, and we don't want them to suffer disproportionately over what seems to be a rather questionable complaint.

FWIW, I agree that they shouldn't be selling yeast that close to the expiration date, or they should be discounting it. Of course I'd never be buying it 30 packets at a time, so it wouldn't be that big a deal to me.

I also agree with the consensus here, that Williams offered a full refund, and that it's unreasonable to expect them to jump through additional hoops beyond their normal return policy. And I do appreciate the info about the yeast...should I need to start buying it in volume, I'll shop elsewhere! But I will continue to order from Williams, as I've been really happy with their service.

Cheers man, and welcome to the forum.

 

[carnevoodoo]

I also agree with the consensus here, that Williams offered a full refund

AND offered to pay for return shipping. They absolutely did their best to resolve the situation. They have company policies that they adhere to, and giving people money for no good reason isn't one of them. If businesses gave people half their money back evey time someone complained, everyone would start complaining. Not a way to run a business.

Silly them for trying to give you all your money back, allowing you to go spend it on yeast somewhere else. How dare they?

 

[Actuary]

If all it takes to make you happy is an arbitrary set of numbers printed on the pack (since we've already established that the expiration date doesn't have any real effect on the contents of the package) just pencil in 9/09/2100 on the pack and be content.

You can make beer with 50 billion yeast cells, and you can make beer with 150 billion. It is a bit foolish to assume those two options give you the same beer...so I am not sure why you feel the date is arbitrary.

 

[Malticulous]

This thread has about 5% remaining life.

Please kill this insanity.

 

[Actuary]

Most of us have been REALLY happy with Williams, and we don't want them to suffer disproportionately over what seems to be a rather questionable complaint.

Sure, which is why I openly stated their policy the entire time and allowed others to decide on their own, and also never asked anyone else to stop ordering from them.

 

[EvilTOJ]

I'd better throw out all these bottled waters in my basement. They expired in 2/2007. I'm lucky they haven't poisoned me yet.

 

[Actuary]

AND offered to pay for return shipping. They absolutely did their best to resolve the situation. They have company policies that they adhere to, and giving people money for no good reason isn't one of them. If businesses gave people half their money back evey time someone complained, everyone would start complaining. Not a way to run a business.

Silly them for trying to give you all your money back, allowing you to go spend it on yeast somewhere else. How dare they?

Do you have some sort of stake in WB? I am trying to understand the reason behind the tone of your posts and repeated mis-representation of several points in favor of WB.

 

[de_ronde]

Sure, which is why I openly stated their policy the entire time and allowed others to decide on their own, and also never asked anyone else to stop ordering from them.

Why don't you just email Bill Moore, the owner of William's Brewing and talk to him? His email is published on the website, (hint: [email protected]) where domainname=williamsbrewing and he is the "William" of the shop's name. Ask him what he thinks about how his employees handled the situation. Report back when you get an answer.

 

[carnevoodoo]

Do you have some sort of stake in WB? I am trying to understand the reason behind the tone of your posts and repeated mis-representation of several points in favor of WB.

I'm just baffled at how they really didn't do any wrong and you had to sign up here to complain about it. I don't have a stake in anything. I use one homebrew store and if I need something mailed, I'll use B3 or AHS, but other than that, I've never even been to the Williams Brewing site.

I just think you're being wholly unreasonable. They offered everything that they should have as a business. You asked for preferential treatment and when you didn't get it, you started to flame them for it. It is unfair. If you don't like what you got, send it back. They offered to pay shipping and give you your money back. You are treating this like they did this maliciously to mess with you and you're some sort of victim here. It is just silly.

With all the effort you've put into complaining, you could have mailed back that yeast 20 times over. You'd have your money back and they would have fulfilled their end of their policy as a company doing ordinary business.

There have been plenty of reasonable complaints on this board, and this is just not one of them.

 

[HenryHill]

Do you have some sort of stake in WB? I am trying to understand the reason behind the tone of your posts and repeated mis-representation of several points in favor of WB.

We have reached the Time.

Transition complete.

 

[bradsul]

This thread has about 5% remaining life.

Gave it an extra 5% for good measure.