Back sweetening and Carbonation

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SnyderCider

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Hey guys so I just finished my second fermentation of my cider and I’m stuck on back sweetening. The cider is very dry and tart because I didn’t add anything but the yeast. I’ve been studying how to add sugar and then carbonate it with said sugar with the remaining yeast. I think I may have messed up though by not adding the agave or slices with the original fermentation. Does anyone know the right process of backsweetening and then bottle carbonating?
 
So, given that you want to back sweeten and carbonate, you have a couple competing processes as both need sugars for the yeast to feed upon.

Adding fermentation sugars can do both, but it is balancing act as you will need to pasteurize the cider to halt it at a stage where it has both sweetness and carbonation you want, otherwise the yeast will continue to eat the sugar until it's used up. This way does run the risk of making bottle bombs so I'd avoid it.

If you use a non-fermentable sugar for sweetness you can then use a fermentatable sugar for bottle carbonating. Since it can't eat the unfermentable sugars, this is more controlled, you can limit the amount of sugar to keep it in a safe range.

Below is a online calc to figure out how much sugar to add to bottle carbonate, as too much fermentatable sugars can cause bottle bombs.

Priming sugar calc

Also, be aware of what bottles you are using for bottle carbonating. Swing tops are ideal, corked not so much(unless it is the mushroom style champagne corks). I also have a large, sturdy trash can I put the bottles in to contain any mess if I screwed something up and added to much sugar, or have a bottle that is weaker for whatever reason.

I like the walk through this site does they explain it pretty well.
Cider Making

Another thing to be aware of is a flat cider will taste a bit different than a carbonated cider so you may decide you don't want to back sweeten.
So, with that in mind, consider adding non-fermentable sugar to bottles on an individual basis. That way you can see which you prefer.
 
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So, given that you want to back sweeten and carbonate, you have a couple competing processes as both need sugars for the yeast to feed upon.

Adding fermentation sugars can do both, but it is balancing act as you will need to pasteurize the cider to halt it at a stage where it has both sweetness and carbonation you want, otherwise the yeast will continue to eat the sugar until it's used up. This way does run the risk of making bottle bombs so I'd avoid it.

If you use a non-fermentable sugar for sweetness you can then use a fermentatable sugar for bottle carbonating. Since it can't eat the unfermentable sugars, this is more controlled, you can limit the amount of sugar to keep it in a safe range.

Below is a online calc to figure out how much sugar to add to bottle carbonate, as too much fermentatable sugars can cause bottle bombs.

Priming sugar calc

Also, be aware of what bottles you are using for bottle carbonating. Swing tops are ideal, corked not so much(unless it is the mushroom style champagne corks). I also have a large, sturdy trash can I put the bottles in to contain any mess if I screwed something up and added to much sugar, or have a bottle that is weaker for whatever reason.

I like the walk through this site does they explain it pretty well.
Cider Making

Another thing to be aware of is a flat cider will taste a bit different than a carbonated cider so you may decide you don't want to back sweeteprefer.
So consider adding non-fermentable sugar to bottles on an individual basis. That way you can see which you prefer.
Appreciate the info!
 
There was a fair amount of activity around this topic last year. I replied to Frankiemuniz last Wednesday about the same thing (just down the page a bit). Attached to that reply is a paper that I posted last year, which should enlighten you heaps. Also look up the other posts that I mentioned in that reply.

As outlined above, sweet carbonated cider is a bit of a balancing act of stopping fermentation to retain sweetness and keeping bottle pressure well within the limits of the bottle rating.

I often do a slightly sweet carbonated cider with around a residual SG1.004 - 1.008 (10 - 20 g/L of retained sugar, which is a bit like 0.5 -1.0 teaspoon per cup of coffee) and as a general rule regardless of the sweetness level, I keep carbonation to around 2 vols and heat pasteurisation temperature to no more than 65C, which limits the bottle pressure during pasteurisation to around 84psi.

Most commercial 12 oz bottles are conservatively rated at around 4 GV (gas volumes) which is about 80psi. The manufacturing "batch pass" for new bottles is typically 1.2 to 1.8 MPa (175 - 261 psi), with 75% of this typically being applied to recyclable bottles, so common sense suggests avoiding any situation where bottle pressure might be over 100psi. Other bottles such as "Grolsch" or Champagne can be rated higher, although Grolsch seals can leak at over 80psi.

So, without kegging, it is possible to make a sweet carbonated cider, but there needs to be an understanding that with higher carbonation or pasteurising temperature, the process can get close to the pressure (or "bottle bomb") limit of the bottles that are commonly used. Therefore PPE precautions like gloves and goggles are worthwhile.
 
There was a fair amount of activity around this topic last year. I replied to Frankiemuniz last Wednesday about the same thing (just down the page a bit). Attached to that reply is a paper that I posted last year, which should enlighten you heaps. Also look up the other posts that I mentioned in that reply.

As outlined above, sweet carbonated cider is a bit of a balancing act of stopping fermentation to retain sweetness and keeping bottle pressure well within the limits of the bottle rating.

I often do a slightly sweet carbonated cider with around a residual SG1.004 - 1.008 (10 - 20 g/L of retained sugar, which is a bit like 0.5 -1.0 teaspoon per cup of coffee) and as a general rule regardless of the sweetness level, I keep carbonation to around 2 vols and heat pasteurisation temperature to no more than 65C, which limits the bottle pressure during pasteurisation to around 84psi.

Most commercial 12 oz bottles are conservatively rated at around 4 GV (gas volumes) which is about 80psi. The manufacturing "batch pass" for new bottles is typically 1.2 to 1.8 MPa (175 - 261 psi), with 75% of this typically being applied to recyclable bottles, so common sense suggests avoiding any situation where bottle pressure might be over 100psi. Other bottles such as "Grolsch" or Champagne can be rated higher, although Grolsch seals can leak at over 80psi.

So, without kegging, it is possible to make a sweet carbonated cider, but there needs to be an understanding that with higher carbonation or pasteurising temperature, the process can get close to the pressure (or "bottle bomb") limit of the bottles that are commonly used. Therefore PPE precautions like gloves and goggles are worthwhile.
Wow thank you so much for the in depth answer!! I’m having a blast making this stuff
 
Another sweetener to try is Stevia; won't ferment, and tastes pretty good, and is natural. I'm using it in my hard seltzer.
 
Xylitol. 1-2 TBS per liter should do it.
I just ferment it out then add Xylitol and some apple extract at bottling or keg time. Tastes great!
I have a hard time philosophically with this. Making cider at home (or making anything at home) feels like we're doing something natural and old-fashioned. Putting artificial sugar into it ruins the mindset for me, like I'd be sitting there sipping it and thinking about artificial sugar the whole time.
 
Definitely sweeten the glass, either a splash of apple juice or make a simple syrup solution and you're set. Taking the ciders on the go? Fill an empty beer bottle with fresh apple juice and cap it.

Don't risk the bottle bombs.
 
Hi MikeyMike 929, welcome to the fun!

I have the same philosophical view re making stuff at home. That is why I go down the path of hot waterbath pasteurising for sweet carbonated cider. Have a look at my post of 19 July 2022 above and my reply to Frankiemuniz on 13 July 2022 which has an attachment about pasteurising. Also look at Pappers sticky at the top of the forum.

There is a potential risk of bottle bombs if you generate too much pressure, but it is reasonably easy to keep the peak pressure during pasturising to under 100psi (the equivalent of 6 or so volumes of C02). The pressure returns to "normal" (i.e. 2.0 - 2.5 volumes) as the bottles cool down.

This next bit is a little technical, but it explains why I am comfortable with heat pasteurising. Most beer bottles are rated by their manufacturer to be filled to 4 gas volumes or about 60psi. However, industry standards (i.e. China Misa Glass, GB4544, Cite, etc) require the same bottles to pass a batch test of anything from 170psi to 260psi depending on their use. Even if not every bottle is tested, the data I have found suggests that the "worst case" (or rogue) bottle in a batch will withstand a pressure of 50% of the batch mean. Hence the "fill" rating of 4 GV is very conservative.

The mean failure rate of a batch will generally be higher than the "pass" pressure. So, to me, a pasteurising process that limits pressure during heat pasteurising to about 50% of the test pressure gives a reasonable margin of safety against bottle bombs. In my case, I pasteurise at peak temperature of 65C with maximum carbonation of 2.3 volume for only a couple of minutes. This generates a maximum of 100psi. Of course other carbonation and temperature combinations will generate different pressures. As a guide, google "Andrew Lea carbonation table"

Ensuring that initial carbonation and pasteurising temperature don't exceed safe limits is essential, as is wearing PPE (goggles and gloves). As with all things, you need to make your own judgement.

Cheers!
 
I have a hard time philosophically with this. Making cider at home (or making anything at home) feels like we're doing something natural and old-fashioned. Putting artificial sugar into it ruins the mindset for me, like I'd be sitting there sipping it and thinking about artificial sugar the whole time.
Yeah, agreed but it’s a crowd pleaser :)
 
I have a hard time philosophically with this. Making cider at home (or making anything at home) feels like we're doing something natural and old-fashioned. Putting artificial sugar into it ruins the mindset for me, like I'd be sitting there sipping it and thinking about artificial sugar the whole time.
I feel the same way, but that's a personal thing. I'd rather add something to the glass like juice, simple syrup, whatever.

Plus xylitol can mess with your gut a little.
 
Hi MikeyMike 929, welcome to the fun!

I have the same philosophical view re making stuff at home. That is why I go down the path of hot waterbath pasteurising for sweet carbonated cider. Have a look at my post of 19 July 2022 above and my reply to Frankiemuniz on 13 July 2022 which has an attachment about pasteurising. Also look at Pappers sticky at the top of the forum.

There is a potential risk of bottle bombs if you generate too much pressure, but it is reasonably easy to keep the peak pressure during pasturising to under 100psi (the equivalent of 6 or so volumes of C02). The pressure returns to "normal" (i.e. 2.0 - 2.5 volumes) as the bottles cool down.

This next bit is a little technical, but it explains why I am comfortable with heat pasteurising. Most beer bottles are rated by their manufacturer to be filled to 4 gas volumes or about 60psi. However, industry standards (i.e. China Misa Glass, GB4544, Cite, etc) require the same bottles to pass a batch test of anything from 170psi to 260psi depending on their use. Even if not every bottle is tested, the data I have found suggests that the "worst case" (or rogue) bottle in a batch will withstand a pressure of 50% of the batch mean. Hence the "fill" rating of 4 GV is very conservative.

The mean failure rate of a batch will generally be higher than the "pass" pressure. So, to me, a pasteurising process that limits pressure during heat pasteurising to about 50% of the test pressure gives a reasonable margin of safety against bottle bombs. In my case, I pasteurise at peak temperature of 65C with maximum carbonation of 2.3 volume for only a couple of minutes. This generates a maximum of 100psi. Of course other carbonation and temperature combinations will generate different pressures. As a guide, google "Andrew Lea carbonation table"

Ensuring that initial carbonation and pasteurising temperature don't exceed safe limits is essential, as is wearing PPE (goggles and gloves). As with all things, you need to make your own judgement.

Cheers!
I've only pasteurized in large, thick, flip-top bottles at 190 F (88 C) for 15 minutes, which I believe I got from the pinned post here. I'm glad I stumbled onto this conversation because I'm going to bottle my current batches in either 12, 16 or 22 oz. regular bottles and hadn't considered they might not be able to take the pressure. That could have been bad!

I know pasteurization is a function of time and temp. At your recommended 65 C (149 F) what is a safe time for 'standard' beer bottles?
 
So, given that you want to back sweeten and carbonate, you have a couple competing processes as both need sugars for the yeast to feed upon.

Adding fermentation sugars can do both, but it is balancing act as you will need to pasteurize the cider to halt it at a stage where it has both sweetness and carbonation you want, otherwise the yeast will continue to eat the sugar until it's used up. This way does run the risk of making bottle bombs so I'd avoid it.

If you use a non-fermentable sugar for sweetness you can then use a fermentatable sugar for bottle carbonating. Since it can't eat the unfermentable sugars, this is more controlled, you can limit the amount of sugar to keep it in a safe range.

Below is a online calc to figure out how much sugar to add to bottle carbonate, as too much fermentatable sugars can cause bottle bombs.

Priming sugar calc

Also, be aware of what bottles you are using for bottle carbonating. Swing tops are ideal, corked not so much(unless it is the mushroom style champagne corks). I also have a large, sturdy trash can I put the bottles in to contain any mess if I screwed something up and added to much sugar, or have a bottle that is weaker for whatever reason.

I like the walk through this site does they explain it pretty well.
Cider Making

Another thing to be aware of is a flat cider will taste a bit different than a carbonated cider so you may decide you don't want to back sweeten.
So, with that in mind, consider adding non-fermentable sugar to bottles on an individual basis. That way you can see which you prefer.
To add one thing to this great post, one sugar the priming sugar calculator doesn't include (because it's for beer) is apple juice. I think it's the easiest way to prime my bottled ciders... for store bought juice I use it in a 1:8 ratio. So a pint of juice per gallon of fermented cider. If using fresh pressed juice I usually need less
 
Hi Jnesselrode

Re your query about safe time for standard beer bottles. The short answer is "very short" if you are just trying to kill the yeast. However, a side effect of pasteurising is that it also gets rid of undesirable pathogens which could spoil the cider.

Bottles exposed to 65C for ten minutes should reach the generally accepted carbonation level for cider.

Standard "beer" bottles are usually fill rated at 4 GV (Gas Volumes). According to Boyle's Law, pasteurising at 65C for 10 minutes should not generate more than 4 GV (60psi) in still bottled beverages or 6 GV in bottled beverages carbonated to 2.0 volumes.

There is some research from Washington State University that suggests that just one minute at 60C is enough to reduce yeasts to undetectable levels (see a post by Jaypkk 1 December 2020). However longer heat exposure might be needed to destroy pathogens, hence the commonly accepted longer time to give a "belt and braces" pasteurisation treatment for cider.

Frequent members of the forum will be aware that my answers sometimes get a bit long-winded because there are a lot of issues involved. This is no exception, so following is the long-winded version for those who want to understand a bit more about pasteurising cider.

While chemical pasteurising is favoured by some cidermakers (and it works), I have a bias towards Heat Pasteurising.

Heat Pasteurising is a function of time and temperature (i.e. a high temperature for a short time will give similar results to a low temperature for a longer time). This is based on a beer industry formula (del Veccio's formula) which calculates how much pasteurisation is developed at different time and temperature combinations. Pasteurisation starts once 60C is reached.

The conventional wisdom has been that although beer requires more pasteurisation than cider, only 50 PUs (Pasteurization units... a measure of pasteurisation) is required for cider. There are recent views are that anything over 30 PUs is enough, because cider generally has a low yeast and pathogen load compared with beer and other beverages like fruit juice which require higher levels of pasteurisation.

An issue with heat pasteurising sealed bottles is that as the temperature increases, C02 is driven out of solution thus creating pressure in the bottle. Andrew Lea has a good spreadsheet which calculates pressure for different volumes of C02 and temperature (google Andrew Lea Carbonation Table). As a guide, the Volumes of C02/Temperature range we are likely to work in when pasteurising is... 2.0 Vols/60C=74psi, 2.5 Vols/65C=109psi, which should give a comfortable safety margin when using "standard beer bottles".

Although standard beer bottles may be rated for a fill pressure of 4 Gas Volumes (60 psi), they are usually designed to industry standards that require them to withstand over 250 psi regardless of their size. Some data shows that the "worst case bottle" in a batch where not all bottles are tested is likely to withstand at least 50% test pressure, so the "fill" vs "test" rating of bottles has a high safety margin. Recycled bottles are usually rated at 75% of a new bottle.

In the case of stovetop pasteurising (see Pappers post at the top of the forum), the cool bottles are put into 190F (88C) water with the heat turned off. The water heats up the bottles while at the same time the bottles cool the water. The end result is something like equilibrium of around 70C (depending on how many bottles and how big the hot water container is), i.e the bottles don't get any hotter than equilibrium so really high pressure isn't developed in the bottles. I did some trials using this method a few years ago and found that a ratio of 4 volumes of hot water (2 gallons) to 1 volume of bottles (5 x 12 oz = 0.5 gallons) resulted in 70C equilibrium

My approach to pasteurising is similar but different. I use a sous-vide heater in a large bucket to hold the bucket temperature at a constant 65C (you could do this on a stove top). Just to monitor what is going on, I also have a bottle of water with a thermometer in the bucket with the cider bottles. This tells me what internal temperature the bottles reach so I can monitor the pasteurising level and so remove the bottles at the target PUs (usually around 25 PUs when they are removed from the bucket plus they will generate another 20 PUs as they cool down after being removed from the bucket, for a total approaching 50 PUs).

FYI, attached is a typical time/temperature chart from one of my recent batches which shows what happens. The combination of 10 minutes at 65C is more than enough for effective pasteurisation.

Hope this helps!
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