Apple slice in bottle?

[Jimmycjacobs]

Ok first time cider brewer here (I have brewed a few batches of beer). I have searched for something along these lines and can't seem to find anything, what are your thoughts in adding a small slice of Apple to each bottle? I know it would have a small amount of fermentables but would their be any other reason not to? And would it impart any apple flavor?

 

[BrewSRQ]

Others will probably chime in with a similar reply, but the risk of infection is probably much bigger than the reward of having a slice in there. If you want the apple slice in the glass during serving, I suggest just adding one directly.

Also, removing fruit from bottles (i.e. lime wedges) isn't the most fun thing in the world.

 

[bu_gee]

I'd be concerned with the enzymes in the apple slice breaking down the cider in an unexpected way.

 

[Jimmycjacobs]

Ok - risk of infection, now I may just be playing devils advocate here but what if you gave them a dip in Star-San? And I am not too worried about getting them out of the bottles.

This is kind of for an event and wanted to have something different.

@Bu_gee: So would it be more of what's In the apple not so much On?

 

[Thetonymartin]

Try it. I would clean and sanitize the knife and the wash the apples before slicing. But do it on a batch ahead of time, to make sure it comes out okay. RDWHAHB

 

[bu_gee]

Well, on it is also a concern, but I've always been wary of the biochemical grab-bag you get whenever you use fresh fruits and not just for beer-making.

Cooked/pasteurized fruits have a much lesser extent of that sort of problem.

 

[photobru]

I'm with Thetonymartin; sounds interesting, but you don't want any surprises the day of.

 

[BrewSRQ]

Starsan works on solid surfaces, that's why you'll hear of unknown strings of infections being traced to a scratch in a plastic fermenter. Apples are porous and the risk should be low, but still a possibilty. The infection shouldn't be anything that would harm you, but a lacto infection could cause gushers or bombs if you are making a sweet cider. I guess if you use the stickied bottle pasteurizing method, nothing should survive to over carb.

Hmm, you've got me thinking now lol.

Once heated, would the peel wax/coating lead to any noticeable difference? Head retention isn't to worry about since cider doesn't have much anyway.

What's your goal with the cider? Dry, sweet, sparkling, still?

 

[Jimmycjacobs]

Well, I was thinking of back sweetening/carbonating with a gallon of the original cider than bottle pasteurizing.

I really didn't have much of a goal when I started this batch but it just finished out a day ago and I had never had "traditional dry" cider before and found it a bit too dry for my liking. Then I got asked about bringing it to a house warming party so I thought to sweeten it up a little and getting it carbed was just a bonus.

Haha sorry for kind of rambling.

 

[ong]

Seems like, if nothing else, the apple slice would be pretty gross after sitting in the bottle for long... Slimy and mushy, not a crisp slice of raw fresh goodness.

 

[BrewSRQ]

If that's the case, I'd wash/sanitize the knife and the whole apples, cut them into wedges and bottle. I highly doubt that anything would take over in the few days it takes to carb and you don't have excess starsan in the cider. Make sure to use a couple plastic bottles to test the pressure (I use old mr. beer bottles that I have from when I started, but any that held a pressurized liquid would work) and pasteurize when a good level is reached. You should be good to go imho.

Sorry if you knew all of this.

 

[BrewSRQ]

Yea, what ong said. The heat during the pasteurization would likely turn the apple to mush..

 

[Jimmycjacobs]

Yikes - mushy apples does not sound appetizing...

Maybe just cold crashing then... I need more room in my fridge! Haha (but increased risk of infection) dang

Thanks everyone!

I think I need to do some Science!

 

[BrewSRQ]

Careful, any ciders left out of the cold and forgotten, whether at the party or your cabinets, could be a potential nightmare. Since the product will be poured out into a serving vessel anyway I'd probably stick with the first method of serving fruit in the glass.

 

[Jimmycjacobs]

So I did a little digging and it appears that most pectins (what holds the crispness and shape) found in apples do not breakdown until around 180 degrees. I wonder...

 

[bu_gee]

A 165F sous vide treatment would do the trick of pasteurization and denaturing most of the enzymes without turning the apple to mush.

 

[BrewSRQ]

Without doing it in cider you could test it by pasteurizing a slice in some water. Results in alcoholic, pressurized cider might be slightly different, but it would give you an idea super quick.

 

[Jimmycjacobs]

Yeah - that's what I was thinking!

I'll let you all know what happens tomorrow when I give it a go!

 

[gratus fermentatio]

The biggest problem is going to be the apple slice breaking up & creating sediment in the bottle. The longer the slice is in the cider, the more it will break down & fall apart. The pasteurization will likely accelerate this process.

Now if you really wanted to get fancy & were willing to put in some time & effort, you could slip a few empty bottles over some very small apples still growing on the tree. Let those apples grow to size inside the bottles & when they're big enough, cut the apples from the tree, sanitize the bottles & apples inside with starsan, fill with cider & cap.

The skin on the apple will help protect the flesh & contain it, even if it does eventually start to break down. The starsan should get any pathogens or wild yeast that try to hitch a ride on the apple & the alcohol in the finished cider will hopefully deal the coup de gras to any that survive the starsan. Calvados does this with both apples & pears (see attached pic).

The fruit in the bottle likely wouldn't add much flavor, but it would certainly make for a very cool presentation. Probably not the answer you expected eh? It's just my 2 cents worth I guess. Good luck!
Regards, GF.

 

[BrewSRQ]

That is pretty neat!

 

[bernardsmith]

I tend to agree that the fruit will break down over time and look less appetizing than a freshly cut slice. What is the ABV of the cider you are making? My guess is that if it is about 5 % then you are indeed asking for trouble - inoculating the cider with a potential source of yeasts and bacteria. If the cider is more like a wine 10 -12 % ABV then I would not really worry that the apple is going to infect the wine. Also if the pH is about 3.2-3.5 then again the apple is not going to cause you any trouble. A pH closer to 4 or higher... and you may be asking for problems...
You might think about using SO2 (campden tabs) to kill off bacteria. That may help preserve the apple too by inhibiting oxidation.

 

[WVMJ]

We are going to do something similar with hot peppers. We sliced open the peppers and dropped them into some everclear to preserve them, then we will just drop them in a bottle with some capsicumel. A whole lot different then what you are doing since the peppers are so thin walled they will preserve easily. Also your slices are going to have to be very thin, it wont really make much of an impression, but if you are bound and determined I suggest you preserve those slices first in everclear for a couple of weeks, under vacum pressure if you can, add in some antioxidants to keep them from browning and drop them in. On thing noone has mentioned is that sitting in all that liquid you are going to start drawing out some of the tannins in the skins, not sure if you want that to happen or not but its going to happen and change the taste of your cider. Instead of going thru all this trouble for little reward why not spend the time making a nice label with some nice apples pics on it, a Gravenstien makes a nice apple picture for a label WVMJ