Any way to quick sour with Lacto or just make a sour quicker - No Kettle Souring

[ChappysBrewing]

Hello! So I have recently started to get into sour beers as I have my first currently fermenting and well sours are my favorite style/kind of beer currently. The complexity and ability to hit soo many notes and get things to come through is just intriguing and I love the tart/sour flavor.

With that being said I am trying to find a way to get some sours started and finished quicker than needing to wait a good year if not more to start drinking them. I already plan on starting a pipeline and will buy more buckets simply due to wanting to have more down the road.

So far and willing to hear other points. I currently do a sour mash. More or less everything is the normal brewing process except depending may add my hops after dough in and not add any during the boil process as most lacto doesnt work too well with a lot of hop additives. After my boil I bring the temp down to around 110 degrees and move them to my different fermenting bucks and with heat wraps set them in a fermentation chamber and keep them at that temp for 2-4 days to drive the ph down using lactobacillus delbrueckii(forgot to check the ph and left it for 4 days which should be the lowest it could take it anyways). Then add brewing yeast and eventually a strain a brett.

Now I understand that Brett has a few different abilities as most commercial strains will have brett (yeast) as well as some strains of pedo and lacto which allows it to continue to ferment and just do fun/funky things to the beer.

Is there anyway to speed the process along a little bit? A better strain of Lacto to possibly get the beer more sour/tart quicker to where after adding brett it does part of that work? Ultimately I am looking to make a sour beer thats ready to package and drink within 3 months using bugs and such instead of doing a kettle sour with sour creme or something which is more or less bland in comparison.

I have seen lactobacillus plantarum but have not used it as of yet but may be a solution. Just looking for some complexity into a sour more so than a kettle sour but just less time than a normal sour will typically take. Would love to get some insight from others!

 

[rokfreek]

You can make a lacto sour like a Berliner weiss or gose in a few days.

I have made several using what sounds like the same process as you. A few days at 90-100 then chill and add yeast. It is plenty sour, not the same complexity as Brett but plenty of bright citrus lip Puckering sourness.

I do find that lacto brevis sour a little faster than delbrueki, but have used both.

Also you can do 100% Brett sours and they ferment out in a few weeks just like any other beer. It is not the same flavor as adding Brett after fermentation but it faster and delicious in the right beer.

 

[bigplunkett]

Idk how it would come out but ive always wanted to do a gal on the side and sour it with just 88% acid. My guess is it would be like microwaving a steak. Still cooked not the same resualt

 

[ChappysBrewing]

You can make a lacto sour like a Berliner weiss or gose in a few days.

I have made several using what sounds like the same process as you. A few days at 90-100 then chill and add yeast. It is plenty sour, not the same complexity as Brett but plenty of bright citrus lip Puckering sourness.

I do find that lacto brevis sour a little faster than delbrueki, but have used both.

Also you can do 100% Brett sours and they ferment out in a few weeks just like any other beer. It is not the same flavor as adding Brett after fermentation but it faster and delicious in the right beer.

Yeah I have never attempted a Gose but feel as though I need to give it a whirl as it sounds like the middle ground between a sour and normal style beer.

Ahh, yeah I had thought of trying/bottling just after the Laco/Beer yeast to see how it turned out. I know that Brett takes a long time and really makes the complexity of the sour and dont believe there is really a quick way to speed that side of things up which I believe takes the most time.

Kettle sours just dont really do it to me as the sour is normally mild and not much to it except it has a sourish flavor but nothing truly behind it so am trying to avoid those but may be able to get a tad more complexity out of the sour the way I am currently doing it. Will have to bottle and find out but also wanna keep the majority going for a long while. Just want to be able to do something much quicker to have sours to sip on and enjoy and then have my babies who come out in time.

I will have to try the Brett from the git go. Do you have any to suggest for that to try out? That could ultimately be exactly what i am shooting for, for a quicker sour I believe with less complexity. I guess my main concern with this is how sour do they get with letting Brett do all the work? I am guessing lacto is in with the strain?

Thanks for the reply by the way!

 

[ChappysBrewing]

Idk how it would come out but ive always wanted to do a gal on the side and sour it with just 88% acid. My guess is it would be like microwaving a steak. Still cooked not the same resualt

What do you mean by adding 88% acid? Are you meaning do a normal beer and ferment and then add the acid to try and sour it after the fact? May work, not sure how it would taste or if by adding the acid it would basically destroy the head and body of the beer but still get the sour aspect from it.

 

[TheMadKing]

Idk how it would come out but ive always wanted to do a gal on the side and sour it with just 88% acid. My guess is it would be like microwaving a steak. Still cooked not the same resualt

This is done quite frequently to make Berliner-weisse and gose beers. It's a clean pure sourness, but one dimensional and you don't get any of the complexity of a Brett sour.

30-50mL of 88% lactic acid to a 5 gallon batch will get you a nice tartness.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

This is done quite frequently to make Berliner-weisse and gose beers. It's a clean pure sourness, but one dimensional and you don't get any of the complexity of a Brett sour.

30-50mL of 88% lactic acid to a 5 gallon batch will get you a nice tartness.

Yeah but is it better/cleaner/more complex than a kettle sour? I mean im willing to try a few different variations to basically determine which style/kind I would like to have as my cheap/simple sour to go along with my longer term type sours doing a 3 stage process of Lacto, Sacc, and lastly a strand of Brett (and whatever else is with it ie. lacto, pedo).

The guy from above with doing the Brett strain for the whole process and only is a 2-3 week process sounds promising, just dont know if itll get sour enough to my liking or how complex it'll be.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yeah but is it better/cleaner/more complex than a kettle sour? I mean im willing to try a few different variations to basically determine which style/kind I would like to have as my cheap/simple sour to go along with my longer term type sours doing a 3 stage process of Lacto, Sacc, and lastly a strand of Brett (and whatever else is with it ie. lacto, pedo).

The guy from above with doing the Brett strain for the whole process and only is a 2-3 week process sounds promising, just dont know if itll get sour enough to my liking or how complex it'll be.

No, it's almost exactly the same as a kettle sour. The only real difference is that you can make is much more intense because you're adding the acid after the yeast has already finished so you don't have to worry about yeast activity.

Once you get a pipeline built up though, you will have those brett sours all the time.. you just have that initial lag time while the first batches are getting ready.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

No, it's almost exactly the same as a kettle sour. The only real difference is that you can make is much more intense because you're adding the acid after the yeast has already finished so you don't have to worry about yeast activity.

Once you get a pipeline built up though, you will have those brett sours all the time.. you just have that initial lag time while the first batches are getting ready.

Yeah and thats my issue as well since I just have finished my lacto and now fermenting im just sitting here thinking man I wont be able to touch this 15 gallons until like a year from now and thats too long! So trying to find a fix to be able to get something around sooner that I enjoy to get by. Of course as well continue to make more sours and as you said create that pipeline. Id love to get to blending and adding fruit later on as well but right now just trying to read and understand everything I can.

I guess if the beer isnt acidic as 1 would like you could always add Acid at the end to get more of that kick.

 

[andrewmaixner]

I think you may seek this: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Alternative_Bacteria_Sources#MTF_.22Reverse_Kettle_Sour.22

Put unhopped boiled wort into fermenter, pitch lacto for 1-3 days, add yeast, done. Optionally add a pinch of noble hops to inhibit the lacto when desired.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

I think you may seek this: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Alternative_Bacteria_Sources#MTF_.22Reverse_Kettle_Sour.22

Put unhopped boiled wort into fermenter, pitch lacto for 1-3 days, add yeast, done. Optionally add a pinch of noble hops to inhibit the lacto when desired.

Yeah something similar. Thats where mine is at currently before adding the Brett but am gonna roll with it and let this 1 go. Actually may fill up 2 glass carboys to the top and any extras then keg just to see how it tastes and get an idea of that process. I think i was looking for something similar to the strain of "WY3203-PC de Bom Sour Blend" which came out in 2014 and no one seems to sell and would do all aspects of the brew but would complete in a month or 2. You would get the sour and some complexity out of the mix but I believe it was discontinued so a matter of finding something similar.

 

[Morrey]

Yeah, and the down side of doing a long term sour is when the beer doesn't turn out like you hope for and you have spent a year crafting a beer that sucks. Places like Wicked Weed are master blenders and I think that is were I'd fall short.

Anyway, I do lots of kettle sours with L Plantarum due to the temps it will kettle sour. I use yeasts like US-05 with great results, but I'm thinking of using a Brett to play with soon. I just made an IPA with Brett C in primary and it came out beautifully. Just wondering if anyone had used Brett as a primary in a kettle sour?

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

You can make a quick sour in a few days and drink it in a couple weeks. It may not be quite as complex as waiting a year, but it does work.

After you mash and before you boil add some lacto to the pre-boiled wort. Let it sit for a couple days at around 100-105 degrees. Then boil and ferment as normal with any ale. It should get the PH down pre-boil in under 48 hours.

A local brewpub does this with their Berlinerweis and uses Greek yogurt with active cultures as their souring bug (Faga, plain). I have done it a couple times and it works pretty well (1/2 - 1 small container for 5 gallons). You could also use your sour mash technique too.

Depending on how you brew (Electric vs Gas) you can rig up a heater using an immersion cooler coil in the boil kettle and a pump attached to your HLT. Monitor the wort temp in the boil kettle and have the monitor turn on the pump to circulate 110 degree water through the coil from your HLT to keep it at temp.

The biggest advantage to this method is that you don't have to have separate Sour equipment. The boil kills the lacto bacteria and you can use your regular fermentation techniques.

Again, it may not be as complex as a year long sour, but if it isn't good you know right away.

 

[TheMadKing]

You can make a quick sour in a few days and drink it in a couple weeks. It may not be quite as complex as waiting a year, but it does work.

After you mash and before you boil add some lacto to the pre-boiled wort. Let it sit for a couple days at around 100-105 degrees. Then boil and ferment as normal with any ale. It should get the PH down pre-boil in under 48 hours.

A local brewpub does this with their Berlinerweis and uses Greek yogurt with active cultures as their souring bug (Faga, plain). I have done it a couple times and it works pretty well (1/2 - 1 small container for 5 gallons). You could also use your sour mash technique too.

Depending on how you brew (Electric vs Gas) you can rig up a heater using an immersion cooler coil in the boil kettle and a pump attached to your HLT. Monitor the wort temp in the boil kettle and have the monitor turn on the pump to circulate 110 degree water through the coil from your HLT to keep it at temp.

The biggest advantage to this method is that you don't have to have separate Sour equipment. The boil kills the lacto bacteria and you can use your regular fermentation techniques.

Again, it may not be as complex as a year long sour, but if it isn't good you know right away.

Not meaning to be rude, but this is a kettle sour procedure. OP said he's hoping to avoid that.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

You can make a quick sour in a few days and drink it in a couple weeks. It may not be quite as complex as waiting a year, but it does work.

After you mash and before you boil add some lacto to the pre-boiled wort. Let it sit for a couple days at around 100-105 degrees. Then boil and ferment as normal with any ale. It should get the PH down pre-boil in under 48 hours.

A local brewpub does this with their Berlinerweis and uses Greek yogurt with active cultures as their souring bug (Faga, plain). I have done it a couple times and it works pretty well (1/2 - 1 small container for 5 gallons). You could also use your sour mash technique too.

Depending on how you brew (Electric vs Gas) you can rig up a heater using an immersion cooler coil in the boil kettle and a pump attached to your HLT. Monitor the wort temp in the boil kettle and have the monitor turn on the pump to circulate 110 degree water through the coil from your HLT to keep it at temp.

The biggest advantage to this method is that you don't have to have separate Sour equipment. The boil kills the lacto bacteria and you can use your regular fermentation techniques.

Again, it may not be as complex as a year long sour, but if it isn't good you know right away.

Thanks for the response. yeah I currently am basically doing this process already except using a Lactobacillus strain to get my sour instead of using a sour creme or other source as well to me its just fake ha. Currently that is more or less exactly what I do. I turn my HLT into my cold side and just run my boil pot through the HLT into my therminator back into the boil until I get it down to the temp im shooting (this last time was 110) and then just went straight into the buckets. I then put a heat wrap on each 1 and put all 4 vessles into a fementation chamber and hold for however long to get the PH down. This first batch I just left it for 4 days and then pitched an Ale yeast and will add Brett after I take the wort off the yeast cakes and let it roll until its done. I think I will have around 2 gallons left over (after putting 6 gallons into a 2 glass carboys and will try and either keg/bottle it just to see how it tastes at that point. If it works then i will have achieved more or less what I am looking for as it wont have the complexity im searching but the souring should be a more natural and hopefully better tasting than using a sour creme alternative.

I was really looking for a culture that basically had everything in it Lacto, Pedo, Sacc, and Brett to just throw in and let it roll and be done in like 2 months or what not with some complexity but it looks like the 1 strain I found that did that isnt made any longer or else I couldn't find any to buy.

More or less I am coming to the conclusion that its just a style of beer you cant really speed up if you want the complexity and background. So if I want a simple sour I may have to just look at that and see what happens.

Now this is just kinda out there, but could you do like a brown sour or any sour for that matter and do the Lacto like normal but instead of using an ale yeast use a Saison yeast to try and add a little funk/barnyard into the background of the beer which may be a simple version of what im shooting for. Just not sure how well that style of yeast would perform as I actually haven't brewed 1 yet. =/

Overall I will probably just start brewing another sour ever month or so and just start creating a major chain (a matter of buying enough storage vessels) and possibly storing them under my house or what not and let em roll. Then of course look at adding fruit or even blending them into the whiskey/wine barrel I have to add even more of a flavor.

 

[troglodytes]

I'm personally a fan of mash souring, is that the right term, then a quick boil and clean fermentation. Gose and Berliners are my go to for the summer, but you're right they do lack the complexity and depth of flavor that a true sour has, that can't be denied. I'm currently in the middle of making my first long aged sour but I too really want some in between, something that's fast in comparison.

I've been a fan of Derek Dellinger of Kent Falls (formerly Bear Flavored) and my next beer is going to be my own version of his Goatpants Farmhouse Ale. It looks like it may fall in between a kettle sour and a lambic as far as time and complexity goes, and I'm very excited for a refreshing summertime sour that pairs well with citrus dry hopping. My plan is to have 4 or 5 good friends over and we'll each provide a bottle of good sour and make a fun night of it saving each commercial bottles' dregs. After building up the dregs for a week with my house brett I'll brew the Goatpants and pitch all at once with couple saison strains. Per the notes on Bear Flavored, it should be ready for bottling in 2-3 months and the mixed fermentation from the start should provide a decent amount of complexity that will only grow in the bottle.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

I'm personally a fan of mash souring, is that the right term, then a quick boil and clean fermentation. Gose and Berliners are my go to for the summer, but you're right they do lack the complexity and depth of flavor that a true sour has, that can't be denied. I'm currently in the middle of making my first long aged sour but I too really want some in between, something that's fast in comparison.

I've been a fan of Derek Dellinger of Kent Falls (formerly Bear Flavored) and my next beer is going to be my own version of his Goatpants Farmhouse Ale. It looks like it may fall in between a kettle sour and a lambic as far as time and complexity goes, and I'm very excited for a refreshing summertime sour that pairs well with citrus dry hopping. My plan is to have 4 or 5 good friends over and we'll each provide a bottle of good sour and make a fun night of it saving each commercial bottles' dregs. After building up the dregs for a week with my house brett I'll brew the Goatpants and pitch all at once with couple saison strains. Per the notes on Bear Flavored, it should be ready for bottling in 2-3 months and the mixed fermentation from the start should provide a decent amount of complexity that will only grow in the bottle.

Yeah I just am enjoying reading up on all this material from all different sources to really get down how I want to do the process for what would work with my equipment and setup. For me doing the Laco after the boil and letting it roll the rest of the process just sounds like what is best for me and how I would wanna do em. Meaning take the wort at a certain temp range and let the lacto do its work before adding sacc to finish off the fermentation and then add in the brett. There are a few others things im gonna give a shot though such as using WLP648 Brettanomyces bruxellensis Trois Vrai as it is a strain that will do the entire process of souring and is a Brett strain to do all the work.

Plus of course trying different types of lacto to get different ranges from more sour to less and all that.
That recipe does look pretty cool although thats a lot to add for just 1 beer. You're gonna be spending 50 bucks just to make 5 gallons I feel like with all that.

For me I need to go ahead and start a golden and a brown sour so then i would have my 3 different bases and just keep playing with it. Will need to buy some more buckets as well yeah, will all have to stay with my sour gear. Would do glass carboys, but dang things are expensive and if they arent wide mouth a pain in the ass to clean as 1 did make 4 gallons of my sour go bad already due to poor cleaning apparently on my part.

 

[troglodytes]

That recipe does look pretty cool although thats a lot to add for just 1 beer. You're gonna be spending 50 bucks just to make 5 gallons I feel like with all that.

I figured my friends and I love sours so we're paying for beer we would normally drink anyway, just taking advantage of the dregs. Base recipe should be much more than $18, and I've got a couple strains of saison yeast in the fridge to choose from already. And you best believe I'll keep the culture blend for future endeavors.

Also, I completely agree with you on the glass carboys. I just can't do it with the thin necks, especially if I'm going to consider fruit. I'm adding sour only buckets and racking gear to my equipment stash, too.

I had a similar idea to take the brett/lacto/sacch blend and pitch it into the golden and red bases that Jay Goodwin released and start practicing my blending skills; perhaps a couple solera projects.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

I figured my friends and I love sours so we're paying for beer we would normally drink anyway, just taking advantage of the dregs. Base recipe should be much more than $18, and I've got a couple strains of saison yeast in the fridge to choose from already. And you best believe I'll keep the culture blend for future endeavors.

Also, I completely agree with you on the glass carboys. I just can't do it with the thin necks, especially if I'm going to consider fruit. I'm adding sour only buckets and racking gear to my equipment stash, too.

I had a similar idea to take the brett/lacto/sacch blend and pitch it into the golden and red bases that Jay Goodwin released and start practicing my blending skills; perhaps a couple solera projects.

Thats very true. Right now its only me that I know of that really enjoys the sours so it can get expensive on myself. Especially like yesterday and went and bought 2 beers and it cost me 20 bucks which is nuts haha.

For your yeast, how long do you let it sit and reuse? I started trying to keep mine and washing it to use again but a guy in the local homebrew group said if im not reusing it in the next couple of weeks I shouldn't use it as it wont be near as good (not sure how accurate what he is saying is true).

yeah I have 2 glass carboys and both are thin necks and yeah not sure what to do with em. May just make em my secondary and hope getting fruit in wont be a pain or use em for beers without fruit and just my secondary with Brett and use buckets or other items for my fruit additions. Really id like to buy a few more barrels (smaller sizes like 15 gallons instead of 55) if I can find em especially wine barrels and try to add that dynamic into em. I found an awesome link which converts a barrel into a secondary fermentation chamber and can even put in a false bottom for the fruit to stay behind and get your beer out. Granted its for a 55 gallon but could be done with any size I feel.

http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2016/09/modifying-barrel.html?_sm_au_=iVV9s7F985MpNZK8


Always fun projects all over haha. A matter of how deep into the rabbit hole one wants to go.

 

[troglodytes]

Dude, that barrel conversion is awesome. Now, I've got another project to add to the list, my wife will be super stoked.


As far as yeast goes, I would say any more than a couple week in the fridge just make a starter and you'll be good. If its older than 4 months, then I would act as though you were stepping up dregs by starting small on starter gravity and volume, taking your time as to not overwhelm. However, your friend probably has a decent point about quality changes over time. I posted just recently about what happens when you try to bring back a yeast that is really old and poorly handled (hint, off flavors galore and poor attenuation), so your mileage may vary. I generally use yeast within 4 months and after a starter haven't had any issues as long as its kept well.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

Dude, that barrel conversion is awesome. Now, I've got another project to add to the list, my wife will be super stoked.


As far as yeast goes, I would say any more than a couple week in the fridge just make a starter and you'll be good. If its older than 4 months, then I would act as though you were stepping up dregs by starting small on starter gravity and volume, taking your time as to not overwhelm. However, your friend probably has a decent point about quality changes over time. I posted just recently about what happens when you try to bring back a yeast that is really old and poorly handled (hint, off flavors galore and poor attenuation), so your mileage may vary. I generally use yeast within 4 months and after a starter haven't had any issues as long as its kept well.

haha yeah it is. I saw that sucker and was like OOOOOO Gotta do this baby! Granted I do have a 55 gallon wine barrel already at the house, just dont know if Ill do it to it is its 55 frekin gallons and you dont want much headspace for secondary when it comes to sours. SO may have to get my hands on some 15 gallon 1s and convert those over. Would be pretty frekin cool to have a couple of those setup and converted to do different fruit additions or whatever your heart desires.

Ahh okay, well he made it sound like it was super quick but if under 4 months, thatll work just fine. Really I need to do some more research to make sure what I have been doing is right or not. Just definitely dont wanna use it if itll throw off flavors and what not into the beers so may just dump what I have and start fresh and with the yeast I normally will use regularly.

How are you going to capture the dregs later on from your sours to reuse? Just grab everything off the bottom you dont get when either kegging/bottling and just use it again in a different beer? Cause yeah id like to try and do something similar to try and save some money as well yeah the amount I brew and want to brew it already semi breaks the bank haha.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

Not meaning to be rude, but this is a kettle sour procedure. OP said he's hoping to avoid that.

Thanks, I guess I skipped that paragraph.

 

[troglodytes]

How are you going to capture the dregs later on from your sours to reuse? Just grab everything off the bottom you dont get when either kegging/bottling and just use it again in a different beer?

I generally harvest everything from starters prior to the pitch fermenting an entire batch. If I'm making a Pale Ale, I'll build up a 3L yeast starter instead of 2L, then only pitch 2L and save the remainder for another batch to be built up in a starter in the future.

For the sour cultures I'll give the mix of microbes about a week munch and multiply prior to brew day, and then pitch about 2/3 of it saving the rest to be built up and maintained.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

I generally harvest everything from starters prior to the pitch fermenting an entire batch. If I'm making a Pale Ale, I'll build up a 3L yeast starter instead of 2L, then only pitch 2L and save the remainder for another batch to be built up in a starter in the future.

For the sour cultures I'll give the mix of microbes about a week munch and multiply prior to brew day, and then pitch about 2/3 of it saving the rest to be built up and maintained.

And with that how long would you do it in between. Normally I just make a starter about 1-2 days before brew day and throw it all in (prolly need to look at this more in depth as well). Not a bad idea though. Ive thought about almost just making a starter beer. Go buy some basic pilsner or wheat or something and just make a 10 gallon batch of 1.30 wort and throw em into containers in smaller increments for brewing grab 1, pitch yeast throw in a stir plate the night before and call it a day.

I guess my first question was mostly to your second point. SO after I finish with the sour beer (dont have any obviously) take all the dregs and everything and store. The week before take it and give it a starter to reproduce for a week and then just pitch 2/3 and save the other 1/3 for another beer. Maybe even combine the 1/3 with the end of that beer depending on how long.