Another sulphur smell problem

[lump42]

I know this has been asked multiple times but didn't see this specific issue yet.

Beginning October pressed apples from local orchard. Added campden at package directions (1 tablet/gallon). Waited 36 hrs, added 1/4 tsp nutrients, aerated, and pitched yeast. Had two 5gal fermentors and decided to use different yeast ( Nottingham and Mangrove Jack Liberty Ale). Second day fermenting fine, added 1/4 tsp nutrients, stirred gently. Third day smell slightly of sulpur, added 1/4 tsp nutrients, stirred gently.

Middle of ofovember, final gravity was 0.994. I was out of fermentors with Xmas brews, so transferred to purged kegs. Cider smells and tastes of cider. I've bubbled CO2 through the liquid, which helped some. I've also polished and sanitized extra copper grounding wire and let it sit for 15 min intervals. And bubbled CO2 again. It no longer knocks me off my butt, but is still unpleasant.

Anything with my process seem off? What else if anything can be done to dissipate the sulphur?

 

[Maylar]

Sulfur (H2S) is what happens when yeast get stressed from lack of nitrogen (nutrient). Depending on which nutrient you have, the typical dose is 1 tsp per gallon so I think you were light on that. Also, temperature has a big effect on how much nutrients the yeast need.

At this point, what you're doing is the correct path. I have eliminated sulfur by bubbling CO2 through the liquid post on my keg and purging it multiple times.

 

[Smellyglove]

Also add zinc.

 

[lump42]

Sulfur (H2S) is what happens when yeast get stressed from lack of nitrogen (nutrient). Depending on which nutrient you have, the typical dose is 1 tsp per gallon so I think you were light on that. Also, temperature has a big effect on how much nutrients the yeast need.

At this point, what you're doing is the correct path. I have eliminated sulfur by bubbling CO2 through the liquid post on my keg and purging it multiple times.

Must have misread the package of nutrients. The fermentors were sitting in my 60-62F basement. Must have been the light nutrients.

 

[lump42]

Also add zinc.

What is the best way to supply zinc? Dosage recommendations?

 

[Smellyglove]

What is the best way to supply zinc? Dosage recommendations?

I don't make ciders, but I know that zinc makes wonders for beer. Maybe a tab of servomyces? It also includes other nutes.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Want the nuclear option to get rid of sulfide in a hurry?
Rack into a vessel with about 30-40ppm sulfite and as much copper as you can get in there. Aerate like crazy. It'll be completely gone in a matter of minutes.
Sulfites will not only prevent oxidation but also directly react with sulfide to remove it.

Cheers

P.S. Preventing sulfide is matter of choosing low-sulfide yeast, adding enough nitrogen, and minimizing sulfite before fermentation.
Pre-fermentation sulfite should be adjusted based on pH to a target molecular SO2, otherwise you have no idea what effect it's having. It should be given time to work and to off-gas and then thoroughly aerated before pitching yeast.

add zinc

1. Apple juice has zinc, unlike barley.
2. Yeast nutrient typically contains zinc, so he already added zinc.
3. There's nothing to suggest zinc will help with an already existing sulfide aroma.

 

[Smellyglove]

Want the nuclear option to get rid of sulfide in a hurry?
Rack into a vessel with about 30-40ppm sulfite and as much copper as you can get in there. Aerate like crazy. It'll be completely gone in a matter of minutes.
Sulfites will not only prevent oxidation but also directly react with sulfide to remove it.

Cheers

P.S. Preventing sulfide is matter of choosing low-sulfide yeast, adding enough nitrogen, and minimizing sulfite before fermentation.
Pre-fermentation sulfite should be adjusted based on pH to a target molecular SO2, otherwise you have no idea what effect it's having. It should be given time to work and to off-gas and then thoroughly aerated before pitching yeast.


1. Apple juice has zinc, unlike barley.
2. Yeast nutrient typically contains zinc, so he already added zinc.
3. There's nothing to suggest zinc will help with an already existing sulfide aroma.

Yest nutrient does not typically contain zinc. Depends on from which producer. And no, zink has to to added on the start of fermentation.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yeast nutrient does not typically contain zinc. ...

You're right.

1. Apple juice has enough zinc, unlike barley, so cider does not need added zinc.
2. Some yeast nutrients contain zinc, so he may have already have added zinc.
3. There's nothing to suggest zinc will help with an already existing sulfide aroma, so it won't help anything at this point.
4. (Off topic) From what I can tell, even all grain wort made with RO water, there's no one else suggesting that added zinc will improve fermentation for a first generation yeast culture.
I'd be interested to hear if your experience is different. What form of zinc are you using, how much, when are you adding it, and how do you know it's helping? Please enlighten us on this recent thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-water-mashed-beer-leads-to-harshness.653771/

Regards

 

[lump42]

Want the nuclear option to get rid of sulfide in a hurry?
Rack into a vessel with about 30-40ppm sulfite and as much copper as you can get in there. Aerate like crazy. It'll be completely gone in a matter of minutes.
Sulfites will not only prevent oxidation but also directly react with sulfide to remove it.

Cheers

P.S. Preventing sulfide is matter of choosing low-sulfide yeast, adding enough nitrogen, and minimizing sulfite before fermentation.
Pre-fermentation sulfite should be adjusted based on pH to a target molecular SO2, otherwise you have no idea what effect it's having. It should be given time to work and to off-gas and then thoroughly aerated before pitching yeast.


1. Apple juice has zinc, unlike barley.
2. Yeast nutrient typically contains zinc, so he already added zinc.
3. There's nothing to suggest zinc will help with an already existing sulfide aroma.

Thanks for the advice. I'm almost at the point of going the nuclear route. I was thinking I'll try racking into a keg with some campden to prevent oxidation. I'll add some clean and sanitized copper wire sand fittings to the keg beforehand.

I had thought I was doing things to prevent but got turned around with the nutrient amount. I was thinking it was 1 tsp total instead of per gal. It was a busy time of year so I didn't take good notes, I think I was trying to spread the nutrients out across several days, similar to TONSA for mead.

 

[Maylar]

Pre-fermentation sulfite should be adjusted based on pH to a target molecular SO2, otherwise you have no idea what effect it's having. It should be given time to work and to off-gas and then thoroughly aerated before pitching yeast.

There are published charts (Jolicoeur's book, and Andrew Lea's web pages) of how much sulfite to use pre-fermentation as a function of pH. But the numbers look big to me - up to 300 ppm for high pH must - and at least one member here had trouble getting a ferment to start after using the recommended dose. So I'm wondering if those published numbers are total free sulfite, including what might already be in the juice, and not just additions. So, my question for you sir, is are there sulfites already in apple juice that need to be considered before making adjustments?

SO2 management throughout the wine/cider/mead making process is a big deal on some of the other forums that I visit. But the test equipment is pricey, so I've been using the 50 ppm rule-of-thumb. I'm thinking that if testing is the only way to know for sure, I might actually invest in the proper equipment.

 

[lump42]

After some more research and running it through the TONSA 3.0 calculator, it lokks like the additions should have been 1/2 tsp instead.

 

[RPh_Guy]

There are published charts (Jolicoeur's book, and Andrew Lea's web pages) of how much sulfite to use pre-fermentation as a function of pH. But the numbers look big to me - up to 300 ppm for high pH must - and at least one member here had trouble getting a ferment to start after using the recommended dose. So I'm wondering if those published numbers are total free sulfite, including what might already be in the juice, and not just additions. So, my question for you sir, is are there sulfites already in apple juice that need to be considered before making adjustments?

SO2 management throughout the wine/cider/mead making process is a big deal on some of the other forums that I visit. But the test equipment is pricey, so I've been using the 50 ppm rule-of-thumb. I'm thinking that if testing is the only way to know for sure, I might actually invest in the proper equipment.

AFAIK, apple juice doesn't naturally contain a significant amount of sulfite.

The charts you reference aren't right. After looking at Lea's work again I see now that he made a mistake when converting to campden tablets (by mixing up total and free SO2). Jolicoeur basically copied his work without catching the mixup.
FYI Lea is also using imperial gallons (4.54L) instead of US gallons (3.79L), so be careful with that. The dosage provided by a tablet is different; one 440mg potassium metabisulfite tablet adds 66ppm free SO2 per US gallon, rather than 50ppm as it would in an imperial gallon.
Furthermore, be wary of sodium vs potassium metabisulfite. They are not interchangeable. The Campden tablets I have are sodium, which provides more free SO2.

Bottom line: ignore the charts.
This calculator is accurate and well-designed:
http://fermcalc.com/FermCalcJS.html

1ppm molecular SO2 is a good target if you want to nuke all the wild microbes.
Sources indicate that 0.4-0.6ppm is adequate if you want to allow a small amount of wild yeast character for complexity.

Being able to accurately measure free SO2 would definitely eliminate a lot of guesswork while aging and bottling cider, giving less chance of oxidation, spoilage, and/or excess sulfite at bottling causing off-flavor.

I don't measure SO2. I don't want to spend the money on it right now, so I use techniques to minimize the need for measuring -- no racking and short aging, or wild yeast.

After some more research and running it through the TONSA 3.0 calculator, it looks like the additions should have been 1/2 tsp instead.

Honey has no nutrients. Apple juice does.
The TOSNA authors suggest using 50% of the calculated amount of nutrient when using fruit juice.

Hope this helps

 

[lump42]

Honey has no nutrients. Apple juice does.
The TOSNA authors suggest using 50% of the calculated amount of nutrient when using fruit juice.

Hope this helps

If that's the case, I used adequate nutrients (1/4tsp used, 1/2tsp TONSA recommends), aerated the must, and fermented cool. What would have caused enough H2S to smell like a massive gas line leak?

Just really trying to puzzle this out for next year.

 

[Blacksmith1]

It was suggested that I might should have allowed more O2 into the original ferment and degassed better. I used the nuclear option and it cleared up nicely.

 

[lump42]

I didn't degas, so I'll try running some other small batches this spring to get my process down before next fall.

 

[Maylar]

If that's the case, I used adequate nutrients (1/4tsp used, 1/2tsp TONSA recommends), aerated the must, and fermented cool. What would have caused enough H2S to smell like a massive gas line leak?

Just really trying to puzzle this out for next year.

I don't follow TOSNA protocol for ciders, and I use 1 tsp generic yeast nutrient with DAP (like Fermaid-K I think) per gallon. No H2S with any of the yeasts I've used other than one S-04 batch where I only had 1 tsp for 6 gallons. Even at 62° I got sulfur with that.

If you use the mead maker calculator you need to know the relative nitrogen requirements of the yeast you're using. I would put ale yeasts on the high side of that. But that's the cause of rhino farts - lack of nitrogen.

 

[Blacksmith1]

I'm starting to suspect the yeast and higher fermentation temps (mine are above 70 F) could be contributing to this problem. Seems like a lot of the "Sulfur smell" threads have Notty or S-04 listed. Could be wrong, I'll have to go back and read them again.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What would have caused enough H2S to smell like a massive gas line leak?

"Preventing sulfide is matter of choosing low-sulfide yeast, adding enough nitrogen, and minimizing sulfite before fermentation.
Pre-fermentation sulfite should be adjusted based on pH to a target molecular SO2, otherwise you have no idea what effect it's having. It should be given time to work and to off-gas and then thoroughly aerated before pitching yeast."

So, my suggestions for you are:
Consider using a low-sulfide wine yeast.
Consider using a scale instead of measuring spoons to ensure correct measurements.
Consider correct pH-adjusted sulfite dosing.
Consider using more nutrients if you continue to use ale yeast; they're greedy.
Consider making smaller batches until you find the right combination of factors you like.

Even at 62° I got sulfur with that.

higher fermentation temps (mine are above 70 F) could be contributing to this problem.

I haven't found that low temperature reduces sulfide formation.
Lower temperature does increase sulfide retention in the cider because it decreases volatility.

 

[lump42]

"Preventing sulfide is matter of choosing low-sulfide yeast, adding enough nitrogen, and minimizing sulfite before fermentation.
Pre-fermentation sulfite should be adjusted based on pH to a target molecular SO2, otherwise you have no idea what effect it's having. It should be given time to work and to off-gas and then thoroughly aerated before pitching yeast."

So, my suggestions for you are:
Consider using a low-sulfide wine yeast.
Consider using a scale instead of measuring spoons to ensure correct measurements.
Consider correct pH-adjusted sulfite dosing.
Consider using more nutrients if you continue to use ale yeast; they're greedy.
Consider making smaller batches until you find the right combination of factors you like.

Is there a list of low-sulfide wine yeast somewhere? I couldn't find any search here or through the google.

I'll look into getting/borrowing a pH meter to try pH-adjusted. Is there a set amount of time that should be given to work and off-gas? I had read before to wait 24 hours, then shook the fermentors for 15 min each.

I'll try adding more nutrients, I was following the TONSA method, b/c I figured if it quickened the mead process with no endogenous nitrogen, then it might help with a quicker cider turn around. I'll just dump in the beginning?

I'm just trying to make sure I'm headed in the right direction from here. Thanks for the help.

 

[Blacksmith1]

I got a 6gal wine starter kit off craigslist that came with yeast nutrient. but it's kinda old, not sure how old but the lady said she bought this stuff "a few years ago" and hadn't use it in at least a year. does it go bad? Didn't have it when I pitched my batches.
Sorry Lump if it seems like I'm jacking your thread but since it's all related info I figure I'll keep it here

 

[RPh_Guy]

Some wine yeast manufacturers give detailed specs for their yeast, including sulfide production. If it doesn't list sulfide production, then nutrient demand should correlate well.

Here's a good one:
https://scottlab.com/dv10-yeast-dv10
"very low H2S [sulfide] and SO2 production"
Definitely follow the manufacturer rehydration instructions.

I'll look into getting/borrowing a pH meter to try pH-adjusted. Is there a set amount of time that should be given to work and off-gas? I had read before to wait 24 hours, then shook the fermentors for 15 min each.

FYI, pH strips are fairly inexpensive. I used some with 0.2 resolution that were reasonably accurate for cider (but not for beer). They're not as good as a quality meter, but better than nothing.
The other thing you could do is skip the pre-fermentation sulfite. It's not generally needed in my opinion. Some people heat pasteurize if they're afraid of wild microbes.

24-48 hours is standard to allow sulfite to work. The SO2 needs somewhere to off-gas, otherwise it'll just stay in there. I'd suggest to just cover it with a towel, and ideally should be open to air while you're aerating before pitching. You could get a powered stir tool or try pouring it back and forth between vessels, through a strainer or something.
You can also leave it covered with a towel for the first few days of fermentation. Keep out insects but let gas flow in and out.

I have used TOSNA for some batches of cider. I'm still not sure whether it's better.
Most recommendations for wine nutrient suggest half at the beginning and half at the 1/3 sugar break.

@Blacksmith1
I personally wouldn't risk it.

 

[lump42]

Some wine yeast manufacturers give detailed specs for their yeast, including sulfide production. If it doesn't list sulfide production, then nutrient demand should correlate well.

Here's a good one:
https://scottlab.com/dv10-yeast-dv10
"very low H2S [sulfide] and SO2 production"
Definitely follow the manufacturer rehydration instructions.


FYI, pH strips are fairly inexpensive. I used some with 0.2 resolution that were reasonably accurate for cider (but not for beer). They're not as good as a quality meter, but better than nothing.
The other thing you could do is skip the pre-fermentation sulfite. It's not generally needed in my opinion. Some people heat pasteurize if they're afraid of wild microbes.

24-48 hours is standard to allow sulfite to work. The SO2 needs somewhere to off-gas, otherwise it'll just stay in there. I'd suggest to just cover it with a towel, and ideally should be open to air while you're aerating before pitching. You could get a powered stir tool or try pouring it back and forth between vessels, through a strainer or something.
You can also leave it covered with a towel for the first few days of fermentation. Keep out insects but let gas flow in and out.

I have used TOSNA for some batches of cider. I'm still not sure whether it's better.
Most recommendations for wine nutrient suggest half at the beginning and half at the 1/3 sugar break.

@Blacksmith1
I personally wouldn't risk it.

Thank you so much. This helps get a plan for next time.

 

[Blacksmith1]

I personally wouldn't risk it.

​

Just for S&G's I went ahead and used the nutrient in a 1 gallon batch of experimental crap (this will never clear), so far so good, the only smells in it are Guava & yeast. I saw a post somewhere where the poster was using nutrient he'd had for 10 years with no issue and figured nothing from nothing if it goes bad I'm out $8.

 

[wasully]

There are published charts (Jolicoeur's book, and Andrew Lea's web pages) of how much sulfite to use pre-fermentation as a function of pH. But the numbers look big to me - up to 300 ppm for high pH must - and at least one member here had trouble getting a ferment to start after using the recommended dose. So I'm wondering if those published numbers are total free sulfite, including what might already be in the juice, and not just additions. So, my question for you sir, is are there sulfites already in apple juice that need to be considered before making adjustments?

SO2 management throughout the wine/cider/mead making process is a big deal on some of the other forums that I visit. But the test equipment is pricey, so I've been using the 50 ppm rule-of-thumb. I'm thinking that if testing is the only way to know for sure, I might actually invest in the proper equipment.

At a pH high enough to recommend that much sulfite: don't both Jolicoeur and Lea recommend lowering the via blending or adding malic acid?

 

[Maylar]

At a pH high enough to recommend that much sulfite: don't both Jolicoeur and Lea recommend lowering the via blending or adding malic acid?

Both say to add acid if the pH is above 3.8. And it's been pointed out here that their numbers are wrong - here's a good reference
https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/so2.pdf