Another newbie question- fermentation temps??

[Bilbo24]

The instructions on the clone kit I’m brewing says that the fermentation range is 62-72F. I have two wifi thermometers..one attached to the side of the fermenter about half way up and another just hanging from a nail about 3 ft away from the fermenter at about the same level from the floor as the first thermometer. Because of the warming nature of fermentation, which thermometer should I go by to stay within the center of the 62-72 range? Of course, the one on the fermenter is 2-3 degrees higher! I do have some ability to regulate the room temperature in order to stay within the center of that range. I’m assuming that the one on fermenter is what I should be going by! Thanks for your help!!

 

[AlexKay]

It’s the temperature of the beer you want to control. The thermometer on the fermenter will give you the better approximation of that … best you can do, unless you get a thermowell or Tilt or something.

What yeast are you using?

 

[Bilbo24]

It’s the temperature of the beer you want to control. The thermometer on the fermenter will give you the better approximation of that … best you can do, unless you get a thermowell or Tilt or something.

What yeast are you using?

SafeAle S-04. It is a Guinness Export Stout clone!

 

[user 338926]

SafeAle S-04. It is a Guinness Export Stout clone!

I use so4 quite a lot and I'm in a discussion with a person in another thread about Fermentis changing their recommendations about the fermentation temperatures. I'm not completely convinced that they're new recommendations are legit, but that's another story. This is a brand new development literally within the last few weeks or months. I'm not sure which.

Bottom line is they are saying that yeast is okay up to 78 point something, Maybe 78.4 or so. My personal thought is, if you're okay with a tiny bit of off flavors, then yes. But the ideal is probably still their old recommendations of 58 to 68. They even have a statement on their page saying that they continued using up old packet Packaging that had the wrong temperature recommendations in spite of the fact that they now recommend 11° higher. Fahrenheit of course I'm talking. That's a really big swing, and I'm not so convinced it isn't just marketing bs. But who am I to say, I'm just a new member. LOL

Keep it as cool as you can and give it some time to clean up at the end of the fermentation with maybe a little warmer temperature after it has quit working substantially.

On MoreBeer recently I watched a video where they interviewed six different commercial Brewers and asked them what is the single most important thing in home brewing, I want to say four out of six said hands down, fermentation temperature. Maybe they're just full of it, but I'm going out of a limb to say it's important. So do your best with it. It doesn't mean that if you miss by a little bit it's the end of the world, but it does mean you should place a lot of effort in making sure it doesn't get out of control. Don't forget that some people say the beer in the center of the fermenter is actually three degrees warmer than the stuff at the outside. Like most people, I measure the outside using a temp probe with my temp controller, but I do set my temperatures on the low end of the recommended ranges because of that laminar difference. It's hard to believe with all that gunk moving up and down through the beer that the temperatures vary that much in the same solution but while I've not tested it myself, I'm not willing to dispute it either.

 

[Bilbo24]

I use so4 quite a lot and I'm in a discussion with a person in another thread about Fermentis changing their recommendations about the fermentation temperatures. I'm not completely convinced that they're new recommendations are legit, but that's another story. This is a brand new development literally within the last few weeks or months. I'm not sure which.

Bottom line is they are saying that yeast is okay up to 78 point something, Maybe 78.4 or so. My personal thought is, if you're okay with a tiny bit of off flavors, then yes. But the ideal is probably still their old recommendations of 58 to 68. They even have a statement on their page saying that they continued using up old packet Packaging that had the wrong temperature recommendations in spite of the fact that they now recommend 11° higher. Fahrenheit of course I'm talking. That's a really big swing, and I'm not so convinced it isn't just marketing bs. But who am I to say, I'm just a new member. LOL

Keep it as cool as you can and give it some time to clean up at the end of the fermentation with maybe a little warmer temperature after it has quit working substantially.

On MoreBeer recently I watched a video where they interviewed six different commercial Brewers and asked them what is the single most important thing in home brewing, I want to say four out of six said hands down, fermentation temperature. Maybe they're just full of it, but I'm going out of a limb to say it's important. So do your best with it. It doesn't mean that if you miss by a little bit it's the end of the world, but it does mean you should place a lot of effort in making sure it doesn't get out of control. Don't forget that some people say the beer in the center of the fermenter is actually three degrees warmer than the stuff at the outside. Like most people, I measure the outside using a temp probe with my temp controller, but I do set my temperatures on the low end of the recommended ranges because of that laminar difference. It's hard to believe with all that gunk moving up and down through the beer that the temperatures vary that much in the same solution but while I've not tested it myself, I'm not willing to dispute it either.

Thank you so much for your thoughts on this! I agree as to the low end of the range!! There is a lot to consider in all this!!! Best regards!!

 

[CascadesBrewer]

On MoreBeer recently I watched a video where they interviewed six different commercial Brewers and asked them what is the single most important thing in home brewing, I want to say four out of six said hands down, fermentation temperature.

After brewing for a few decades using ambient temps and simple measures (like a swamp cooler) to "control" temps, moving to dedicated temperature control was a solid upgrade in quality, consistency and convenience! These days, when my fermentation chamber is tied up, I notice how difficult it is to control fermentation temps without it. A beer that I expect to rise 4-6F just sits there 2F above ambient. I had a Dubbel where I planned for that 4-6F rise, and it pushed itself to 10F above ambient! I am hoping the harsh alcoholic notes will age out.

I have generally had good results with English strains like S-04 in the 66F range during active fermentation. I find you get a bit too much esters even in the low 70's, so I would be a bit scared pushing it to that 78F range! To keep the temperature of the actively fermenting beer in the 66F range, I would look for an area that is 2-4F cooler, or a way to help keep the wort cooler. I do find that a fermenter sitting directly on my lower level tile-over-cement floor stays a good 2F cooler than if I elevate it off the floor.

 

[mac_1103]

The thermometer on the fermenter will give you the better approximation of that … best you can do, unless you get a thermowell or Tilt or something.

It might help if you insulate the thermometer on the fermenter.

They even have a statement on their page saying that they continued using up old packet Packaging that had the wrong temperature recommendations in spite of the fact that they now recommend 11° higher.

Look, I get that this really bugs you, but that's not exactly a fair representation of what it says on the website. They never say that the old recommendations were wrong. And the old and new ranges do overlap, so it isn't really accurate to say that they now recommend fermenting 11 degrees higher. For S-04 the old range was 59-68F and the new is 64.4-78.8, so they're saying that you can go almost 11 degrees higher but not recommending that you necessarily should. It does seem however, that they are in fact recommending that you ferment 5-6 degrees warmer than the low end of the old range. That actually makes a certain amount of sense to me but YMMV.

Fermentis isn't making the beer. We are. If people can make good warm-fermented lagers, who's to say that you can't make a good cold-fermented ale?

 

[balrog]

insulate the thermometer on the fermenter

This was what I was going to add.

 

[mac_1103]

This is a brand new development literally within the last few weeks or months.

It's actually been more than two years based on publication dates of their TDS.

 

[Bilbo24]

After brewing for a few decades using ambient temps and simple measures (like a swamp cooler) to "control" temps, moving to dedicated temperature control was a solid upgrade in quality, consistency and convenience! These days, when my fermentation chamber is tied up, I notice how difficult it is to control fermentation temps without it. A beer that I expect to rise 4-6F just sits there 2F above ambient. I had a Dubbel where I planned for that 4-6F rise, and it pushed itself to 10F above ambient! I am hoping the harsh alcoholic notes will age out.

I have generally had good results with English strains like S-04 in the 66F range during active fermentation. I find you get a bit too much esters even in the low 70's, so I would be a bit scared pushing it to that 78F range! To keep the temperature of the actively fermenting beer in the 66F range, I would look for an area that is 2-4F cooler, or a way to help keep the wort cooler. I do find that a fermenter sitting directly on my lower level tile-over-cement floor stays a good 2F cooler than if I elevate it off the floor.

I agree wholeheartedly that regulated temp is the best way to go. I’m not set up yet for that right now so the old basement floor has to do for this batch. These numbers may be interesting: I pitched my yeast at 72 degrees, sprinkled on top, two packages of S-04. That was about 1600 on April 30. My wifi thermometer was taped to the side of a plastic Fermonster. I also had another wifi thermometer about three feet away suspended in the air as to be the same height off the floor as the one on the Fermonster. The one attached to the side read 68.3 at 5 am on May 1. It started to rise at 8am and reached its peak at 71 degrees at 1705 May 1 and stayed at that temperature plus or minus a few tenths until 2313 on May 1 when it started to drop steadily down to 64.7 on May 3 where it has been since! (Again, plus or minus a few tenths).This is as of this writing at 11:120 May 4! Interesting also is that during that roughly 5 hours on the evening of May 1 while at its highest temp, the yeast was blowing and going!!!! Large krausen buildup and huge foam. Some foam came thru airlock! During that really busy period the thermometer on the side ran 6-8 degrees warmer than the thermometer about three feet away. It’s still bubbling about a bubble every 2 seconds!!!

 

[balrog]

I agree wholeheartedly that regulated temp is the best way to go. I’m not set up yet for that right now so the old basement floor has to do for this batch. These numbers may be interesting: I pitched my yeast at 72 degrees, sprinkled on top, two packages of S-04. That was about 1600 on April 30. My wifi thermometer was taped to the side of a plastic Fermonster. I also had another wifi thermometer about three feet away suspended in the air as to be the same height off the floor as the one on the Fermonster. The one attached to the side read 68.3 at 5 am on May 1. It started to rise at 8am and reached its peak at 71 degrees at 1705 May 1 and stayed at that temperature plus or minus a few tenths until 2313 on May 1 when it started to drop steadily down to 64.7 on May 3 where it has been since! (Again, plus or minus a few tenths).This is as of this writing at 11:120 May 4! Interesting also is that during that roughly 5 hours on the evening of May 1 while at its highest temp, the yeast was blowing and going!!!! Large krausen buildup and huge foam. Some foam came thru airlock! During that really busy period the thermometer on the side ran 6-8 degrees warmer than the thermometer about three feet away. It’s still bubbling about a bubble every 2 seconds!!!

Behold the exotherm!

 

[mac_1103]

Basement floors are great heat sinks.

 

[Bilbo24]

Basement floors are great heat sinks.

Are you saying I shouldn’t put in on the bare basement floor because it will suck heat away which might be bad?? I might should have put it on something insulated to prevent that but still it would be close to the basement floor to take advantage of the low thermal layer. Thoughts????

 

[user 338926]

Look, I get that this really bugs you, but that's not exactly a fair representation of what it says on the website. They never say that the old recommendations were wrong. And the old and new ranges do overlap, so it isn't really accurate to say that they now recommend fermenting 11 degrees higher. For S-04 the old range was 59-68F and the new is 64.4-78.8, so they're saying that you can go almost 11 degrees higher but not recommending that you necessarily should. It does seem however, that they are in fact recommending that you ferment 5-6 degrees warmer than the low end of the old range. That actually makes a certain amount of sense to me but YMMV.

Fermentis isn't making the beer. We are. If people can make good warm-fermented lagers, who's to say that you can't make a good cold-fermented ale?

Well, I was going to keg that questionable beer of mine last night but decided against it and left it in the fermenter. It's pretty bad but hopefully it'll get drinkable. I seriously doubt it's salvageable, but I'm cold crashing it some more. According to what you're saying, it _was_ 'within' their new recommendations. Well, it's got "hot brew" flavor in spades. You are correct, this does bug me. Not that my beer failed, that's my fault. The fact that after what you're saying below was 2 years, they're still selling packs of yeast with the "wrong" numbers on them... Seriously??? I"m supposed to know I can't just read the package, I have to go to the website and get updates?

This yeast was purchased from Morebeer in two separate orders 2 weeks apart. They're folks not known for keeping old expired stuff around. It has dates on it suggesting it's not very old. And well, withing the new recommendations, made precisely what I expected it to when not properly controlling the temp. All of their science aside, my empirical evidence says the old recommendations are still the best procedure. One brew that went to 71F is so so. One that went to 77F may as well have been dry-hopped with electrical tape.

It's actually been more than two years based on publication dates of their TDS.

That makes it even worse.

 

[user 338926]

I have generally had good results with English strains like S-04 in the 66F range during active fermentation. I find you get a bit too much esters even in the low 70's, so I would be a bit scared pushing it to that 78F range!

This is exactly what just happened to me. Mine went to 77, the aroma is terrible and it tastes like band-aids..

 

[mac_1103]

I'm pretty sure that Lalbrew Abbaye, WLP-500 and Wyeast 1214 are all the same strain. Each manufacturer gives a different recommended range of fermentation temps. Which two are wrong?

 

[user 338926]

I'm pretty sure that Lalbrew Abbaye, WLP-500 and Wyeast 1214 are all the same strain. Each manufacturer gives a different recommended range of fermentation temps. Which two are wrong?

Well, from my most recent experience, one of em is Fermentis. Lol.

 

[mac_1103]

According to what you're saying, it _was_ 'within' their new recommendations. Well, it's got "hot brew" flavor in spades. You are correct, this does bug me. Not that my beer failed, that's my fault. The fact that after what you're saying below was 2 years, they're still selling packs of yeast with the "wrong" numbers on them... Seriously??? I"m supposed to know I can't just read the package, I have to go to the website and get updates?

So if I'm following the argument you think the "wrong" numbers are actually the right numbers, and you got a bad outcome from missing those numbers. And although say it's your own fault and you didn't even know about the new numbers when you made this beer, you're still pissed off at Fermentis?

 

[mac_1103]

Well, from my most recent experience, one of em is Fermentis. Lol.

Actually, none of them are Frmentis.

 

[user 338926]

So if I'm following the argument you think the "wrong" numbers are actually the right numbers, and you got a bad outcome from missing those numbers. And although say it's your own fault and you didn't even know about the new numbers when you made this beer, you're still pissed off at Fermentis?

It looks as if no matter what I'll say, you're going to find fault with it, and/or read into it something I didn't say. That's fine, I'm not that new on the internet.

Here's the deal in small chunks so as to clear up any misunderstanding:
I made a beer, made an error in judgement thinking that 50F ambient was cold enough to keep a beer cool even though it was inside a freezer, and I was wrong. Ok, that part is on me.
Beer went to 77F on day one. I caught this as soon as I saw it, but... too late. And I pretty much knew it was too late.
Recommendation on the yeast packet I had in hand was approximately 58-68.

Error #2 evidently (the one you're most happy with), was assuming that the info on the yeast packet delivered 2 weeks ago would be the same as the info on the exact same yeast delivered 2 days ago. Yup, I'm willing to admit I didn't look at BOTH packets to see what the manufacturer changed last week. Sue me.

Now, which recommendations are correct is irrelevant to 1/2 of this debate. There's 2 different issues. One, what is the correct temps, which I conclude I already knew from experience. I re-confirmed by achieving the new temps by mistake. You confirmed that 2 years ago they changed these numbers, so there's no chance I got old yeast enough that 77 should have resulted in undrinikable beer. Yet, that's what I have so far. And I'd say that's not likely to change.

So from there, yes, I have issues with not only their recommendations being just plain wrong, but the fact that a company that sells a product at an astronomical gross margin (I consider $247/Lb astronomical) is so cheap as to be ok with saving a few pennies on packaging while ruining customers product experience, wasting their time and wasting their money, with what I see as arbitrarily changing the numbers for marketing reasons.

Yes, I freely admit, I was unaware of said change, so that wasn't the issue with the beer I made. The issue I have is that IF I were to move forward trusting them, I'll end up with more ruined beer.

Does that clarify my stance?

Actually, none of them are Frmentis.

I took the liberty of including them...

 

[mac_1103]

I took the liberty of including them...

You took the liberty of including them in a question that specifically excluded them? This might be part of why I have trouble following your arguments and understanding exactly what your complaints are. The rest of that post does at least clear a few other things up. But I still don't see how anything that Fermentis did or didn't do has anything to do with you sticking your FV into a closed, insulated chamber and thinking that the temperature wasn't going to rise. My guess is that the actual temperature of your fermentation (as opposed to the temperature in the chamber) was higher than 77F (IOW, well outside of both the new and old recommended ranges).

But if you really are convinced that Fermentis changed their recommendation to something that's going to ruin everybody's beer, maybe you could explain what their motivation for doing so might be.

 

[user 338926]

You took the liberty of including them in a question that specifically excluded them? This might be part of why I have trouble following your arguments and understanding exactly what your complaints are. The rest of that post does at least clear a few other things up. But I still don't see how anything that Fermentis did or didn't do has anything to do with you sticking your FV into a closed, insulated chamber and thinking that the temperature wasn't going to rise. My guess is that the actual temperature of your fermentation (as opposed to the temperature in the chamber) was higher than 77F (IOW, well outside of both the new and old recommended ranges).

But if you really are convinced that Fermentis changed their recommendation to something that's going to ruin everybody's beer, maybe you could explain what their motivation for doing so might be.

Yea, the 3 strains have no Fermentis equiv... Whatever. Your interesting 'trick' question is duly noted. I was more or less making a return joke answer, but it's the internet and I can't add sarcasm in text. If my including them is win, hats off to ya.

At no point have I attempted to deflect away from my mistake thinking the beer couldn't warm up that much that fast. I have at no point said they had anything to do with that. I don't understand why you keep harping on it as if I have. I HAVE said in response to questions from others on the forum about yeast temperatures, specifically THIS yeast with them having similar problems, that this happened to me and that IMHO, 70F and above is not good. I've also made the "leap" that other folks with very bad similar flavors who had warm fermentation's, also got that flavor due to the warm fermentation. Didn't seem a stretch to me, but ok.

I don't know how to make it any more clear that there's 2 issues for me. One is my mistake, though it's totally avoidable in the future and it's completely independent of the other, which is not liking what they're doing with these yeast recommendations. Or I guess a third issue, the packaging debacle if you don't want to include that in #2. Are the topics related? Well, I guess, yes they are. I postulate that what they say you can do, is not ok to do.

I have included my experiences, and noted the experiences of others, as empirical evidence when responding to others here on the forum. You don't have to look far to see people say, too warm ain't good. Every time I've responded in one of these, a person has the same issue, with the same conditions, and the same results.

???

As to their motivation: I figured that is self evident. Yeast strains that are very temp tolerant are all the rage. Sales of yeast that won't ferment properly at room temp is dropping like a rock. Marketing has a fix, just say it's now ok at 78F. There,management, see that? Problem fixed!

 

[user 338926]

My guess is that the actual temperature of your fermentation (as opposed to the temperature in the chamber) was higher than 77F (IOW, well outside of both the new and old recommended ranges).

When I found it and checked, it was 77.5 (IIRC). 77.x anyway. Could the center have been warmer, I suppose.

 

[mac_1103]

Are you saying I shouldn’t put in on the bare basement floor because it will suck heat away which might be bad??

Actually I was saying that sucking heat away seems like a good thing in your case. Basically free temperature control. If your basement was a lot colder it might not be so good.

 

[seatazzz]

Ok I'm going to jump in the middle of this debate and elaborate on 'insulating' the thermometer probe to the OP. This is as simple as taping it to your fermenter with a sponge over it, or something else that will keep it from the ambient air. I use cheap scrubbie sponges with painter's tape to hold them to the fermenter; if they get nasty I just take them off, rinse them up good, and they're good for cleaning. Painter's tape has the advantage of not usually leaving a sticky residue when it comes off the fermenter.

 

[balrog]

Ok I'm going to jump in the middle of this debate and elaborate on 'insulating' the thermometer probe to the OP. This is as simple as taping it to your fermenter with a sponge over it, or something else that will keep it from the ambient air. I use cheap scrubbie sponges with painter's tape to hold them to the fermenter; if they get nasty I just take them off, rinse them up good, and they're good for cleaning. Painter's tape has the advantage of not usually leaving a sticky residue when it comes off the fermenter.

I second the painter's tape, but I like a swatch of bubblewrap instead of a sponge. Maybe that's an East Coast/West Coast thing.

 

[mac_1103]

I prefer duct tape and foam insulation. Maybe it's a what I had lying around thing?

 

[Bilbo24]

Actually I was saying that sucking heat away seems like a good thing in your case. Basically free temperature control. If your basement was a lot colder it might not be so good.

Just as an experiment, I put it on a towel this morning for a couple of hours and the temp immediately rose…but only by about a degree and a half! I think I’m going to remove the towel when I get home. With regards to the post about insulating the thermometer from the air.. I have a little wifi thermometer cube taped to the side of the Fermonster about halfway up and then I wrapped it with bubble wrap on the sides not touching the fermonster. This way I hope I’m getting a pretty true reading of the beer as opposed to the surrounding air. Not as good as an internal probe but good enough for me right now!!

 

[VikeMan]

Sales of yeast that won't ferment properly at room temp is dropping like a rock.

Are they? If so, would you mind sharing the data?