Annual CO2 Usage

[ninkwood]

Hi folks!

I'm trying to decide on my future CO2 setup for my home brewery. I have a bit of a supply issue with CO2 as I live in rural Canada and the only home brew shop close by (within a 3 hr round trip) does not supply CO2.

My options are:

1) Continue using the expensive soda stream bottles at $15/each for 410g of gas

2) pay for a commercial cylinder exchange service that costs about $80 per 20# fill, and $110/year for leasing the tank.

Option 2 seems really expensive relative to what I was expecting, especially if I stick with the hobby for years and years...

I'm wondering how much CO2 people go through brewing about twice per month. I'd like to be able to pressure transfer and force carb, purge fermenters after dry hops additions, and serve beer from a small keezer. I figure upgrading is worth it if I'll use more than ~9lbs of CO2/year. I suppose $200/yr isn't that bad at the end of the day. Just more than I was expecting to pay.

 

[McMullan]

I had the same problem. Rural, no local CO2 supply. Not even a beverage grade CO2 supplier nationally, not for the public anyway. I used to drive a 3-hour round trip to a HBS to get a refill, which wasn’t even beverage grade and illegal under local laws. So I invested in pressure-rated FVs (kegmenters) for bulk natural carbonation and several sodastream canisters (for serving) that I exchange when on offer, which is sometimes cheaper than the HBS, beverage grade and available locally. Actually a better deal for me overall.

 

[IslandLizard]

Buy a used 20# (or 50#) tank for far less than a year's lease. Get it filled and be set for at least a year or longer.
Purge kegs with (free) fermentation CO2.

 

[ninkwood]

I had the same problem. Rural, no local CO2 supply. Not even a beverage grade CO2 supplier nationally, not for the public anyway. I used to drive a 3-hour round trip to a HBS to get a refill, which wasn’t even beverage grade and illegal under local laws. So I invested in pressure-rated FVs (kegmenters) for bulk natural carbonation and several sodastream canisters (for serving) that I exchange when on offer, which is sometimes cheaper than the HBS, beverage grade and available locally. Actually a better deal for me overall.

Yeah I think this is my solution too. Since getting the SodaStream setup, I've been super efficient with CO2, only using it when necessary. I'll be kegging very soon, and I think I'll continue to bottle condition in kegs but I'll also dial up the spunding pressure towards the end of fermentation to get some free volume that way.

I read alot about how bad SodaStream bottles are, but they seem pretty darn convinient to me.

Buy a used 20# (or 50#) tank for far less than a year's lease. Get it filled and be set for at least a year or longer.
Purge kegs with (free) fermentation CO2.

I'll work my way ho to purging kegs with fermentation CO2 as well! But this option just doesn't seem viable up here. I'll check the big city ~4 hrs away though. If I can find a place that will fill a 20# bottle with food grade CO2 there I can do that as I'm there once a year anyways.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'll check the big city ~4 hrs away though.

Ouch! That's a big hurdle.

If I can find a place that will fill a 20# bottle with food grade CO2 there I can do that as I'm there once a year anyways.

Get 2 20# tanks! Most outfits here are swap only now, but their prices have about doubled compared to 3 years ago.

You can also fill smaller tanks from the bigger (20#) ones.

You can curb your CO2 use quite a bit when you set your mind to it and plan ahead.
Such as closed transfers from fermenter to pre-purged keg (with fermentation CO2).
Big mylar balloons (or bladders).

There's a member here who's saving fermentation CO2, even compressing it, for similar reasons.

I always remember the large helium "balloon" against the stairway ceiling in our physical chemistry lab, storing used and recaptured helium from the whole building.

 

[ninkwood]

Ouch! That's a big hurdle.

I find this to be the case quite often in Canada... Not sure if it's excessive regulations, or just the reality of a smaller market size but there are many examples here where a product/service just cannot be found.

You can also fill smaller tanks from the bigger (20#) ones.

The LHBS here is run out of the guy's house. He's expressed interest in supplying CO2 but everytime I've asked it's been a month away. It would only take a few of us locally for it to make sense to pay for the lease of a large tank and fill out smaller ones off that one. I'll check in with him again and maybe go over the numbers assuming there's some profit in it for him.

Most outfits here are swap only now, but their prices have about doubled compared to 3 years ago.

Reading posts on here from 3+ years ago and building an expectation of price off that hasn't helped either!

You can curb your CO2 use quite a bit when you set your mind to it and plan ahead.
Such as closed transfers from fermenter to pre-purged keg (with fermentation CO2).
Big mylar balloons (or bladders).

There's a member here who's saving fermentation CO2, even compressing it, for similar reasons.

I always remember the large helium "balloon" against the stairway ceiling in our physical chemistry lab, storing used and recaptured helium from the whole building.

I'm just getting into kegging and serving, so I don't really know how quickly I'll go through a SodaStream bottle. I'm not planning on leaving my kegs on gas indefinitely anyways, since it'll just be me drinking from them aside from the occasional weekend visit in the summers. I'll keep tabs on it for now. Nice to know that I'm not crazy for thinking the SodaStreams can work!

 

[whoaru99]

Dispensing, AFAIK, doesn't use all that much. I think it's the initial carbing (although I see you're priming) and what you do for purging kegs, etc., where you can burn through the CO2 (leaks notwitstanding).

Around here the cost of exchange for a 20# CO2 is only a few bucks more than a 5# because most of it is the labor/handling, not the gas.

Quick check on 20# tanks, looks like the current used asking price around here is $100 give or take, and many have a regulator on them too.

The place I get my exchanges does not ding you extra for expired tanks. As long as the tank looks generally serviceable they take it and charge the flat exchage rate. No lease since they got a tank from me on trade, so to speak.

 

[ninkwood]

Dispensing, AFAIK, doesn't use all that much. I think it's the initial carbing (although I see you're priming) and what you do for purging kegs, etc., where you can burn through the CO2 (leaks notwitstanding).

This is my understanding as well. I may very well want to carb with CO2, but I don't mind using sugar either if it makes sense to preserve CO2. I suppose I could always force carb in an "emergency"...

 

[ninkwood]

I found a brewery in said big city that is offering #20 food grade CO2 swaps for $100. I'm thinking this is a good idea, so long as I can find a used tank they will accept for a decent price.

Thanks gents!

 

[whoaru99]

Only you can decide how frugal you need to be with the gas.

 

[whoaru99]

I found a brewery in said big city that is offering #20 food grade CO2 swaps for $100. I'm thinking this is a good idea, so long as I can find a used tank they will accept for a decent price.

Thanks gents!

If you want food grade more power to you. I think most of us do not get that. I get from welding supply.

 

[ninkwood]

If you want food grade more power to you. I think most of us do not. I get from welding supply.

It probably makes no difference, but I'd rather not take the chance to save a few bucks.

 

[Airborneguy]

Could be a difference in laws as well. Food grade co2 is tough to find in the US. And honestly is unnecessary.

 

[whoaru99]

I asked the welding supply store about grades. I forget which grade specifically he said (it's been a long time since my last CO2 fill) but I do recall the gist being it was a high enough grade it covered multiple applications. Technically better than necessary for welding, but it was cheaper in the long run for them and buyer to do it that way than to stock and maintain three separate grades on site.

 

[IslandLizard]

I found a brewery in said big city that is offering #20 food grade CO2 swaps for $100. I'm thinking this is a good idea, so long as I can find a used tank they will accept for a decent price.

Thanks gents!

In August I paid $46 for a 20# swap at a local Praxair welding supply. About double from 3 years ago.
He had 20-some 20# aluminum tanks on the lot, all handsomely looking with some sort of (transparent) varnish on it. Hadn't seen that before but seems to be common now.

Roberts sells at a similar price or even a little cheaper. Pricing also seems to depend on the market.

The CO2 we get here is beverage grade. There's a sticker on the tank. From what I've read, that's the most common grade sold (in the U.S.).

IMO you should aim for getting an aluminum tank. Steel ones tend to be rusty (only on the outside, hopefully) and are a lot heavier, and don't always come with handles. Most places will swap aluminum for aluminum but rarely give you an aluminum for a steel return.
Besides the look, schlepping a (nearly) full 20# aluminum tank around (serving at beer or club events) is heavy enough.

The previous 20# tank lasted me 3 years, on the dot.

 

[ninkwood]

I asked the welding supply store about grades. I forget which grade specifically he said (it's been a long time since my last CO2 fill) but I do recall the gist being it was a high enough grade it covered multiple applications. Technically better than necessary for welding, but it was cheaper in the long run for them and buyer to do it that way than to stock and maintain three separate grades on site.

As long as it's not significantly more expensive, this is the way it ought to be done. If people are going to use it for food, just use food "grade" for everything. But I really know nothing about this so my opinion is worth about as much...

In August I paid $46 for a 20# swap at a local Praxair welding supply. About double from 3 years ago.
He had 20-some 20# aluminum tanks on the lot, all handsomely looking with some sort of (transparent) varnish on it. Hadn't seen that before but seems to be common now.

Roberts sells at a similar price or even a little cheaper. Pricing also seems to depend on the market.

The CO2 we get here is beverage grade. There's a sticker on the tank. From what I've read, that's the most common grade sold (in the U.S.).

IMO you should aim for getting an aluminum tank. Steel ones tend to be rusty (only on the outside, hopefully) and are a lot heavier, and don't always come with handles. Most places will swap aluminum for aluminum but rarely give you an aluminum for a steel return.
Besides the look, schlepping a (nearly) full 20# aluminum tank around (serving at beer or club events) is heavy enough.

The previous 20# tank lasted me 3 years, on the dot.

This is great info thanks!

I've heard the aluminum recommendation before (the "rust inside the tank" is the only difference between welding and beverage/food grade theory) and definitely intend to go that direction.

I have the kegland 360 SodaStream regulator and the plan is for that to serve as portable or emergency backup (incase I unexpectedly run out of CO2).

 

[IslandLizard]

I have the kegland 360 SodaStream regulator and the plan is for that to serve as portable or emergency backup (incase I unexpectedly run out of CO2).

From what I've read, you can refill those Sodastream bottles from your larger tank... Some (many?) do that for the ultra portability of the Sodastream canisters. They hold about a pound of CO2?

 

[lumpher]

Could be a difference in laws as well. Food grade co2 is tough to find in the US. And honestly is unnecessary.

My understanding from how an AirGas guy explained it to me about 10 years ago is the difference between food grade and non-food grade co2 is whether the tanks have been used for strictly co2, or maybe for other gases also in the past. I was told it was mandated many years ago that tanks only hold 1 particular gas, at least in the US.

 

[ninkwood]

From what I've read, you can refill those Sodastream bottles from your larger tank... Some (many?) do that for the ultra portability of the Sodastream canisters. They hold about a pound of CO2?

Yeah if I go 20# and I think I'll need portability I'll go this route (assuming the tank is compatible...)

I don't imagine I'll need portability very often though, and on the occasion I do buying a SodaStream isn't the end of the world.

 

[bwible]

I go through a 5 pound tank probably about every 2 or 3 years. I only use it for dispensing kegs, I don’t do any CO2 purging of anything, etc. I’ve really slowed down though, the past few years I might have put 9 or 10 kegs on for the year - (I bottle some too) - a mixture of mostly 5 gallon kegs but a couple 3 gallon kegs. I always turn the tank off at the top main valve whenever I’m not serving just in case anything is leaking and that way I never lose a whole tank.

 

[bwible]

I found a brewery in said big city that is offering #20 food grade CO2 swaps for $100. I'm thinking this is a good idea, so long as I can find a used tank they will accept for a decent price.

Thanks gents!

A 20 pound tank would probably last me at least 8 or 9 years.

 

[bwible]

If you’re in a place where CO2 tanks and refills are difficult to come by, there are several threads about collecting CO2 from your fermenting batches and re-using it. I’m sure it won’t eliminate your need for a tank but could extend what you have and make it last a little longer.

 

[ninkwood]

Well my cheap 8L Oxebar kegs arrived just in time for me to be able to complete my first o2 "free" transfer this evening.

I weighed my SodaStream bottle before and after and was surprised how little CO2 I used - only 66 grams! Considering I also added some cold brew coffee and then purged the headspace in both kegs, and over-filled the fermenter (still had about 6-7 psi when it was all said and done), I think this is a solid vote to stick to what's easy.

These Oxebars aren't bad. Better than I was expecting for the price but they do require a delicate hand.

I filled these to the tippy top with nearly no headspace. Is that okay, or should I be leaving some room?

 

[day_trippr]

I filled these to the tippy top with nearly no headspace. Is that okay, or should I be leaving some room?

If the Oxbar kegs are going to be carbonated using bottled CO2, the smaller the boundary area between gas and beer the longer it will take for the carbonation to reach completion - equilibrium at "chart pressure" as defined by our favorite carbonation table. To minimize that conditioning time you'd want to stop filling when the beer level reaches the top of the vertical side wall to maximize that boundary area and in turn minimize the time to reach equilibrium...

Cheers!

 

[ninkwood]

If the Oxbar kegs are going to be carbonated using bottled CO2, the smaller the boundary area between gas and beer the longer it will take for the carbonation to reach completion - equilibrium at "chart pressure" as defined by our favorite carbonation table. To minimize that conditioning time you'd want to stop filling when the beer level reaches the top of the vertical side wall to maximize that boundary area and in turn minimize the time to reach equilibrium...

Cheers!

I went with corn sugar on these, but that's good to know! Makes sense I suppose, less head space = less gas

 

[Spivey24]

What do local restaurants do for CO2?

 

[joshbuhl]

From what I've read, you can refill those Sodastream bottles from your larger tank... Some (many?) do that for the ultra portability of the Sodastream canisters. They hold about a pound of CO2?

I do this. It works a treat! I have 3 Sodastream bottles, so don't have to fill often, and fill from a 10kg bottle. The only trick is having to turn the 10kg bottle upside down to fill. I built a wooden stand that looks like an outhouse seat for the purpose.

 

[joshbuhl]

What do local restaurants do for CO2?

If you're a regular business consumer, then there are delivery services that come and switch out the bottles. I haven't found one that will do this for private customers who only need a refill once a year.

 

[IslandLizard]

I went with corn sugar on these, but that's good to know! Makes sense I suppose, less head space = less gas

It's not the headspace size per se, it's the exposed surface area between liquid and gas, pressure, and temperature that determine speed of carbonation. And of course, agitation if you want speed things up dramatically.

 

[McMullan]

What do local restaurants do for CO2?

Expensive contracts with commercial suppliers.

 

[ninkwood]

If you're a regular business consumer, then there are delivery services that come and switch out the bottles. I haven't found one that will do this for private customers who only need a refill once a year.

I had the air Liquide guy agreeing to send a 20lb CO2 bottle to my house, but balked at the price (in my first post). I think I could probably do it, but paying $110+ per year for the bottle is a deal breaker for me. I don't think I need enough CO2 to justify that.