Do you honestly think 1400s era brewers made better beer than we do today?
Am I Oxidizing My Beer With My Bottling Wand
- Thread starter Mike Page
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Do you honestly think 1400s era brewers made better beer than we do today?
Here I though Miller-Coors was one of the big brewers but I guess they are just a niche player. Thanks for setting me straight on that.
That's impossible for me to say. What I can say is this. Being in a homebrew club with 40 members for years, not one member is convinced in all the oxygen fuss. And I'm talking AHA and other competition winners. Look, believers got to believe. I get that. I'm just saying not everyone has to be or is a believer.
Maybe, but I think you are making this way harder than it needs to be. Siphoning is not a big deal at all - unless you are commercial brewing in which case local regs usually specifically prohibit starting a siphon with your mouth.
Start with a silicone tube. And you'll need a piece of plastic pipe or tube that fits inside the silicone tube. If you like, take a ballpoint pen and break it in half and it's probably about the right size.
Sanitise your silicone hose. One end of the hose goes into the beer. Use a clamp to hold it to the side of the bucket if you want.
Put your plastic pipe/tube in the other end and start sucking to draw beer into the hose.
Remove the plastic pipe/tube which has your mouth germs on it.
Pinch the silicone hose to stop the flow. Put the silicone hose in a bottle, then *slowly* release to start filling.
This is the best method of filling bottles I have found. Minimal gear to buy/sanitise, you can control the flow speed, you can fill bottles to the correct level, no risk of bubbles entering the line like an autosiphon.
OP
OP
Mike Page
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There it is. I wasn't going to get into an argument over this but this has to be one of the most ridiculous ways to answer a question on this forum. If you ask your self why this is a ridiculous way to answer a question then you my friend need to stop leaning on the keyboard to hear your self talk. I'm out, done with this forum. Clearly, people on here would rather speculate and tell each other to relax and drink more beer.
Mothman
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This thread has gone sideways, but getting back to the original question...
I have never used a spring loaded bottling wand, only the standard wands, but I've never seen the beer come out with any amount of force.
I can't imagine the spring versions are much difference, beyond, I assume, closing off more strongly when lifted... if you are actually getting beer coming out with bubbles and splashing at the start of each bottle (not just the very first bottle), then I think maybe something is wrong with the bottling wand (in which case, replace it, or remove it if you want to use the methods described that don't use the wand).
Or maybe your bottling bucket is so much higher than the bottles you are filling, that the beer is flowing too quickly? Maybe lower the bucket? (i don't know if this actually would make a difference... I'm no physicist lol)
Then why are you still here?
Start a LODO message board where you and your fellow True Believers can pat each other on the back and giggle about how much more highly evolved you are than we Neanderthal brewers.
I’m pretty sure you need to at least replenish the air in the growing headspace or you will end up losing the siphon.
.Sounds to me you are candidate for early migration to kegging and true closed transfers. You are never going to be satisfied with that bottling bucket route as no matter what you do to get the beer into that bucket once it’s there it is picking up oxygen.
Warning...snarky rant to follow.. I’m prob butt hurt due to your disparagement of my RDWHAHB comment....no worries it’s what makes the internet fun...anyway just picture it...The beer actually swirls a bit in the bucket...good for mixing the priming sugar solution in but... it is actually mixing atmospheric o2 into the beer. Since you can’t possibly bottle and transfer 5 gallons in less than 60 seconds you know for sure, due to internet knowledge, that beer is irrevocably ruined. At best it might be pretty good but no chance to aspire to the quality of commercial beer such as Budweiser which is well known for meticulous adherence to LODO technique.
When you come back showing off the medal you have won and the times you have gotten a Ninkasi award for your totally superior beers I will become a believer. In the meanwhile, I remain a skeptic.
Morrey
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Absolutely my same thoughts (kegging) to achieve less O2 exposed beers. I think it is very difficult to avoid oxygen exposure with a bottling bucket. Even a small chest freezer with an ATC can get you started kegging. I used a picnic tap to dispense beer at first. Craigslist is a treasure chest to find low cost options.
Bottling will inevitably introduce oxygen, yet the debatable part is how much damage is done by O2 (if any), and how quickly said damage (if any) occurs. Additionally, carbing in the bottle seems less controllable than carbing in the keg with applied CO2. Once your beer is carbed to your desired level in the keg, you can easily bottle some beers for friends or competitions with devices like a beer gun. This device floods the bottle with CO2 in an attempt to rid the empty bottle of unwanted O2. I am not 100% sure this displaces all of the O2 (probably not), but is a very good way to bottle from keg if so desired. Kegging is very instrumental in closed system transfers.
Excuse my kegging rant....just an opinion.
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Drebin138
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It’s nice to see a veteran like yourself saying this. I feel like a lot of the one when someone newer like myself asks a question like this there’s a lot of doom and gloom responses. I don’t think anyone isn’t being genuine but sometimes the best advice is Relax. Don’t worry. Have a home brew.
Morrey
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You make a good point. Brewers have to start somewhere and we don't typically start off with the knowledge level of seasoned veterans. New brewers often follow instruction sheets included in a kit and are totally focused on the basics. This is not the time for advanced ideas to be force fed to a novice. Learn to walk before you run.
As a brewer gets more experience, they (we) start fine tuning the process that can make a beer turn out better next time. It is really easy for a veteran brewer to forget that a first time brewer needs to simply make a beer and learn the basics. The new brewer is struggling to remember when to do this and that, so advanced techniques may be in order one day...but probably not today.
Common statement is: My first couple of brews were pretty bad....but they started getting better from there. Sure, I believe that. You're getting your act together and learning the process. From there we grow, learn and brew better beers along the way. Sooner or later, advanced theory will be embraced, but as a new brewer, simply making a beer is quite an accomplishment.
I think there’s a big difference between “relax” and “oxidation isn’t real”.
“Relax” infers that you don’t need to overly worry about mistakes.
“Oxidation isn’t real” infers you lack knowledge on the subject.
You can both relax, and acknowledge oxidation exists and occurs to various extents. The two are not exclusive.
Still don’t get why this always leads to pissing contest.
“Relax” infers that you don’t need to overly worry about mistakes.
“Oxidation isn’t real” infers you lack knowledge on the subject.
You can both relax, and acknowledge oxidation exists and occurs to various extents. The two are not exclusive.
Still don’t get why this always leads to pissing contest.
Mothman
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Did anyone say "oxidation isn't real"?
What I got out of the bulk of the posts that seem to be irritating you is "oxidation is a thing, but it's not anything to be worried about".
The "don't need to worry about it" is a subjective opinion. Your "you can only make 'good beer', not 'great beer' without using LODO techniques" is also a subjective opinion.
As you said, you can acknowledge oxidation exists, and still not worry about it. The two are not exclusive. No pissing contest required.
What I got out of the bulk of the posts that seem to be irritating you is "oxidation is a thing, but it's not anything to be worried about".
The "don't need to worry about it" is a subjective opinion. Your "you can only make 'good beer', not 'great beer' without using LODO techniques" is also a subjective opinion.
As you said, you can acknowledge oxidation exists, and still not worry about it. The two are not exclusive. No pissing contest required.
AkTom
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/\ this. Especially for a new brewer getting his process down. I'll run for cover again;-)
Cheers all, enjoy your process, and brews.
Cheers all, enjoy your process, and brews.
Yes and you ruined your beer, only kidding, you will be fine. Drink on
Drebin138
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I definitely agree the two aren’t exclusive and don’t mean to suggest that they are. I’m just not sure the Beginners forum is the best place for this debate to take place.
Since most of us just starting out are likely to be using the standard yet primitive plastic bucket set up there really isn’t much we can do besides move quickly so we don’t leave our beer exposed for too long.
As a dude who is only on his second batch my main concerns right now are all about making sure I’m going through each step correctly and efficiently.
I think for beginners before oxidation we should be more worried about temperature control on brew day and during fermentation. I’d even put wether or not we should be treating the water we use to boil ahead of oxidation concerns this early in our beer making careers.
Just my 2 cents as someone who isn’t knowledgeable enough to really even be able to have a fight in the oxidation game.
I think the best advice for beginners with respect to oxidation is to know that it is a real thing, but in the scheme of brewing there are bigger fish to fry first. Chances are they don’t have the equipment to really stop it anyways. And unless the beer is grossly mishandled it’s not going to make undrinkable beer.
There are a lot of people here who claim that “their beer tastes just fine, or it’s too much work (i.e. “relax”), so I don’t have an problem with oxidation.” See it all the time.
There are a lot of people here who claim that “their beer tastes just fine, or it’s too much work (i.e. “relax”), so I don’t have an problem with oxidation.” See it all the time.
I’m a temp control believer perhaps fanatic. It is fairly easy thing for new Brewer to adopt and should make a noticeable impact on your beer.
As for water if there is any chlorine or chloramine in your brewing water you need to address that immediately. Otherwise minor adjustments like cutting very hard water with some RO/spring water from the store or a tsp gypsum (2 if you have quite soft water) added to the kettle when brewing IPA will get you started on reasonable path and you can get deeper into the water (haha) later on.
I like this advice. One more thing I'd add to this. Oxidation isn't an all or nothing prospect. Take the steps you can to prevent it, evolve your ability as you see fit. Every step you take that reduces exposure is an improvement. For a beginner, oxidation is pretty low on the list of things that are critical for those first few brews. Conquer sanitation, yeast health, fermentation temp control, and water first. Those four are the heavy hitters in beer quality. Short of extreme mishandling, everything else is small incremental improvements.
Also, to the OP - it sounds like you're a lot like me. I read 20-30 hours a week about brewing before I started. I still read 10+ hours a week about brewing processes, recipes, ingredients, etc. With that level of dedication, you will brew some damn good beer. Just keep learning and improve your process with every batch. Just don't forget that chasing awesome beer should still be fun.
Drebin138
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I’m only on my second batch and don’t have any fancy equipment for temp control yet but I’m paying a lot more attention to it this time than I did with my first batch. As long as those little temperature gauge stickers are semi accurate and my hanging thermometer isn’t lying to me I’ve always been in the range I want it to be in. Would you happen to know if any cheap ways I can get a better grip on temperature control?
RO water is just bottled water right? I’ll be brewing a lot of IPA’s since it’s one of my favorite styles so anything that can help them tie out better I definitely need to learn more about.
Look up swamp chiller for temp control for now and keep an eye out for a cheap or free fridge/freezer. When you score the fridge Control it with inkbird dual stage controller or diy build one using stc1000. Its a fun diy but the savings is modest vs just buying the inkbird. You can also put the fermentor in tub of water and add ice packs from time to time. Most critical is about 3-4 days after pitching yeast. After that you are prob safe so long as it doesn’t get too cold too soon.
RO water usually comes out of those machines at grocery store. I’d not bother ...yet...unless you know you are dealing with pretty hard water.
I know you meant the first 3-4 days, but incase someone took it literally.
Mothman
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I live in a small house, no room to permanently set up even a small fridge setup for fermenting.
I bought a fermentation cooler from Cool Brewing, and it works great, quite stable temperatures (within 2-3F) seeing as I'm just managing it with varying amounts/sizes of frozen water bottles, and only need to refresh them about once per day., twice in the heat of the summer.
When not in use it folds up flat and is easily stored in the storage space.
I've not yet had to increase temperatures for fermenting, only reduce it. If I had to raise temps I could likely still use the cooler, along with a heating pad and a controller.
I don't know about you guys, but when I transfer to the bottling bucket, I just upend the carboy onto the bucket. Gravity transfers for the win. None of that stupid bubbling from the autosiphon.
The_Bishop
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Yeah, *don't* do that. That's how you oxidize the hell out of the beer, and end up with all the trub/yeast mixed back in.
Edit: I missed the sarcasm, Stop teasing the new brewers!
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AkTom
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I think he forgot a smiley... he was jesting. 
The_Bishop
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Ah, my apologies then. Didn't catch that!
Man, what a thread. The question is "am I oxidizing my beer with my bottling wand". The answer is - yes. The OP had a valid concern and a bunch of people are saying don't worry about it. If you are bottling you are oxidizing your beer. If you want to start the process of reducing oxidation you need to start kegging. If you are happy with your bottled beer the way it is then brew and drink away - I tip my hat to you and enjoy your brew. When someone wants to adjust / improve their process we should be supportive.
ESBrewer
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Try to use lower pressure. When the bottling bucket is positioned low compared to bottles and there is no air bubbles inside the tubes, there will be less pressure and no bubbling. Always touch the bottom óf the bottle with your wand to minimize splashing. Oxygen is generally bad but if you bottle carefully (avoid bubbles and don't leave excessive head space volume in the bottle), it is not going to ruin your beer in any way (in my opinion). Yeast is also able to consume some oxygen in the bottle before it reacts with the beer.
good point each to there own and what works for the individual is great .
This really gets heated and is almost like the whole religion debate . LOL.
I think , Myself , That brewing homebrew is all about what aspects of the hobby you enjoy the most be that making the best you can spending the least amount of money or spending lots on equipment and whatever and making the best beer you can, I myself am more concerned with the costs . Either way you are doing it for the reasons that best suit you and S#$%w what anybody else thinks...
You are free to believe what you want and do what you think best in this hobby .
I agree, but kegging isn't practical for me and never will be. So I don't get a large pipeline - just brew so the next batch will be conditioned shortly before the last batch is gone. The effects of oxidation take time, and I don't let it sit long enough to get bad. It's a practical work-around.
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