Am I Oxidizing My Beer With My Bottling Wand

[Mike Page]

Trying to fine tune my process. I recently bottled my third batch and while bottling I feel like I am introducing oxygen. When I use my spring loaded bottling wand the first few seconds the beer shoots out and bubbles quiet a bit and gets swished around. I cant imagine this is good for the beer. I try to be gentle but it still seems to happen. Is this something to be concerned about?

Thanks.

 

[Iseneye]

Yes you are introducing dissolved oxygen into the beer. If you are bottling it is difficult to avoid.

 

[MaxStout]

The first few seconds is just the beer displacing the air in the valve and wand. You could just pour out that first little bit at the beginning and bottle after that.

After that point, are there still bubbles coming out with the beer?

 

[Mike Page]

The first few seconds is just the beer displacing the air in the valve and wand. You could just pour out that first little bit at the beginning and bottle after that.

After that point, are there still bubbles coming out with the beer?

No after the first few moments the bubbles subside so there is no cracks in the wand or anything like that. Any tips on avoiding this? Maybe a nicer wand?

 

[ba-brewer]

There will a be a second/ongoing fermentation in the bottle to form the carbonation, yeast will take care of what little oxygen get added, I would not worry about it.

I removed the valve thing from my bottling wand and just pinch the tube between bottles. You could try pinching the hose to slow down the initial flow and that might give less bubbles.

 

[MaxStout]

No after the first few moments the bubbles subside so there is no cracks in the wand or anything like that. Any tips on avoiding this? Maybe a nicer wand?

No way to avoid the first bit of bubbles. That's just the air being displaced initially as the tube fills up. You can toss out those first couple ounces of beer. Or not and that first bottle may be a little more oxidized. As long as there isn't an leak with air continually being drawn into the beer flow, you should be OK.

 

[Mothman]

OP are you saying you are getting bubbling/swirling at the start of each bottle? Or just the start of the first bottle?

 

[Sadu]

I replaced my bottling wand with a silicone tube. Lets you control the flow speed by pinching the tube, so you can start each bottle slowly with no splashing. I would never go back to bottling wands again. Way less splashing / oxidation plus you don't need to topup each bottle from a jug.

 

[schematix]

It is widely accepted in professional brewing literature that anything less than 3 vacuum and CO2 purge cycles will introduced too much oxygen.

It's really, really hard to do without oxygen ingress.

Best to either address fully ($$$), keg, or just do the best you can and know no matter what you do you're going to introduce O2.

 

[flars]

Bubbles in the first bottle can be eliminated by having the bottle in the fill position, with the spring tip compressed, then turning the valve on the bucket on. The beer flow will push all the air out of the wand before the beer begins filling the bottle.

 

[thehaze]

I use a bottling wand without spring and the beer does not get splashed in the same way you are describing. I also do not get any bubbles when bottling, except some from Star-San, but the bottles usually drain properly before filling them up. I can also somewhat control at what rate the beer is coming out of the wand, by toying around with the spigot.

But yes, either way, you are introducing oxygen when bottling. A better handling of bottling, would be to get a cannister of CO2, and purge the fermenter, purge the bottling bucket and all bottles. This will increase your chances of having too much contact with oxygen. I will get myself some CO2 and try bottling by purging everything, and see if it makes any difference, but for the styles which are heavily hopped/dry hopped. For other styles, I would not worry that much, as long as you minimize the splashing, the swooshing and tossing around the beer too much.

 

[AkTom]

Dude relax.... don't worry, be happy. Drink a beer. A tiny bit of oxygen won't matter. All these LODO/OCD freaks are here for entertainment value only. Don't worry. Bottle it, let it carb. Enjoy. Life's too short to sweat a bit of oxygen.
Cheers

 

[jcaggiano]

No way to avoid the first bit of bubbles. That's just the air being displaced initially as the tube fills up. You can toss out those first couple ounces of beer. Or not and that first bottle may be a little more oxidized. As long as there isn't an leak with air continually being drawn into the beer flow, you should be OK.

This has been my answer for the past few batches. This last bottling session I realized that I was not aggressive enough with the auto-siphon. I was in a rush and pumped it a couple extra times with the bottling wand depresses in a bottle and it push every bit of air out of the line. normally I had a pocket somewhere in the line where it joins the racking cane. Ironic as I was always ginger with the siphon to avoid agitation.

I guess we are always learning!

 

[Miraculix]

Dude relax.... don't worry, be happy. Drink a beer. A tiny bit of oxygen won't matter. All these LODO/OCD freaks are here for entertainment value only. Don't worry. Bottle it, let it carb. Enjoy. Life's too short to sweat a bit of oxygen.
Cheers

Amen.

 

[RM-MN]

Oxygen doesn't dissolve into your beer very quickly. You short amount of time of splashing won't dissolve very much and the yeast will scavenge it as they work to carbonate the beer. You will probably have as much dissolved while the beer is in the bottling bucket and that won't be much.

I get that same amount of splashing when I fill bottles and knowing that the sigh of oxidation is staling of the beer, if this were a problem wouldn't I be noticing it with beers that spend over a year in the bottle? Doesn't happen.

 

[eric19312]

OP next time you bottle take that first bottle that is filled this way and mark it. Maybe mark it with a #1 on the cap. Then when you have another bottle that seemed to be filled with no bubbling at all mark that bottle with a #2. Set those two bottles aside and save them for near the end of consumption of the batch. Chill then down and have a friend pour you a blind taste test. A triangle test would be best.

My guess is you will find them hard to distinguish. I'm not saying splash at will. Just understand homebrew is pretty durable product and relatively hard to ruin with a bottling wand. This is your third batch my guess is your main issues at this point are sanitation and temperature control. Quality of ingredients and yeast management probably come after that (if you are brewing with liquid malt extract freshness is especially important). Oxidation during bottling or kegging if that is in your future may be something to worry about eventually, but for now just enjoy the fact that you can actually make beer that you and your friends enjoy drinking!

 

[eric19312]

It is widely accepted in professional brewing literature that anything less than 3 vacuum and CO2 purge cycles will introduced too much oxygen.

It's really, really hard to do without oxygen ingress.

Best to either address fully ($$$), keg, or just do the best you can and know no matter what you do you're going to introduce O2.

Wow. The guy is on his third batch. I firmly believe beginners are well served first learning how and why RDWHAHB built this hobby. I get it that we all want to keep pushing the envelope trying to improve. Oxygen sensitivity/exposure, to borrow a gaming reference, is the current meta. Good info posted above regarding what commercial brewers target for oxygen exposure but is this the thread for it? Homebrewers have been making outstanding beer for decades without getting so wound up ($$$) in this concern.

Some of that has to do with process differences between commercial and homebrew product...refermentation in the bottle is quite different from canning pasteurized and filtered light lagers...some of it has to do with shelf life expectations for homebrew vs commercial product...I don't expect my loaf of homemade bread to last as long on the shelf as a double wrapped supermarket sandwich bread why should I care if my homebrew will taste the same on release day as it will after a year of warm storage? My homebrew is a living product and I expect it to change in the package over time.

 

[schematix]

Relax all you want, don't worry about it, have another one, but it doesn't change the facts. You can't wish away exposure to oxygen.

I agree keeping it simple and building up is important too. But it's also a great disservice to tell someone who is new to the hobby an outright falsehood. It's hard to unteach bad habits later on.

Do the best you can for now, and when it's time, just know there's an option if you're interested.

 

[MaxStout]

I think there's some middle ground for newer brewers. It's too soon to delve completely into the full range of LODO techniques. But a beginning brewer can (and perhaps, should) start incorporating some basic habits that will reduce O2 exposure. E.g., being careful not to draw in air while stirring, racking gently with a minimum of splashing, making sure siphons and tubing connections are tight and not introducing air, etc. Get into those habits early on and those beers will be better.

 

[schematix]

I think there's some middle ground for newer brewers. It's too soon to delve completely into the full range of LODO techniques. But a beginning brewer can (and perhaps, should) start incorporating some basic habits that will reduce O2 exposure. E.g., being careful not to draw in air while stirring, racking gently with a minimum of splashing, making sure siphons and tubing connections are tight and not introducing air, etc. Get into those habits early on and those beers will be better.

I fully agree with you that those are good habits to start learning and take practice to execute well, even if they don't result in a perfect performance. Absolutely no shame in starting simple and working your way up until you're satisfied.

What i don't agree with is comments like these that are spreading outright disinformation that leads people to believe it isn't true.

OTOH if you choose not to deal with it, that's fine too. It's your beer. But it doesn't change the fact that you must be very meticulous to get beer that isn't exposed enough to change its character.

A tiny bit of oxygen won't matter. All these LODO/OCD freaks are here for entertainment value only.
Cheers

Oxygen doesn't dissolve into your beer very quickly. You short amount of time of splashing won't dissolve very much and the yeast will scavenge it as they work to carbonate the beer. You will probably have as much dissolved while the beer is in the bottling bucket and that won't be much.

I get that same amount of splashing when I fill bottles and knowing that the sigh of oxidation is staling of the beer, if this were a problem wouldn't I be noticing it with beers that spend over a year in the bottle? Doesn't happen.

Oxygen from the air dissolves into wort insanely fast. Not to mention that 21% of air is oxygen...

What most don't realize is that there isn't a lot of difference between a little oxidation and a lot of oxidation.

 

[Morrey]

I think there's some middle ground for newer brewers. It's too soon to delve completely into the full range of LODO techniques. But a beginning brewer can (and perhaps, should) start incorporating some basic habits that will reduce O2 exposure. E.g., being careful not to draw in air while stirring, racking gently with a minimum of splashing, making sure siphons and tubing connections are tight and not introducing air, etc. Get into those habits early on and those beers will be better.

I think you made a great point, MaxStout. Being aware of O2 exposure and slowly working towards O2 elimination as you gain experience is a pretty good way to view things. Not necessarily throwing out the entire process, but having a goal in mind as we grow as home brewers.

As many home brewers did or still do, I used a racking cane to move beer from fermenter (open plastic pail during transfer) to keg (open lid keg). Of course there was a ton of O2 exposure and a savvy pro brewer took one sip and said you are exposing your beer and its oxidizing your end product. He was right, but at least I learned what I was doing was costing me in terms of beer quality.

It took me almost a year to slowly work towards a system that would be a closed system transfer. Its a good thing to know what happens when a beer oxidizes so we can work towards a better system. Got to start somewhere...but hopefully improve as we grow.

 

[Mike Page]

OP are you saying you are getting bubbling/swirling at the start of each bottle? Or just the start of the first bottle?

Yes, the "bubbles" are from the splashing of the beer coming out of the bottling bucket.

I replaced my bottling wand with a silicone tube. Lets you control the flow speed by pinching the tube, so you can start each bottle slowly with no splashing. I would never go back to bottling wands again. Way less splashing / oxidation plus you don't need to topup each bottle from a jug.

Thanks for this. I was wondering if anyone else has done this. This was going to be my next idea. I also plan to lower the height of the bottling bucket to lower the speed at witch the beer flows from bucket to bottle. Thanks for the advice.

Relax all you want, don't worry about it, have another one, but it doesn't change the facts. You can't wish away exposure to oxygen.
.

THANK YOU THANK YOU. I have been researching home brewing like crazy lately. Albeit on my 3rd batch I feel like I have a decent understanding of the process and I am so sick of the RHAHB mantra... Sure its a hobby I don't poor my heart and sole into it but I want to make awesome beer. I don't just want drinkable beer. I've never been into a hobby and while researching have I had so many people tell me to relax... THAT'S WHY I AM HERE!

And that't my short rant for the day.

 

[RM-MN]

I fully agree with you that those are good habits to start learning and take practice to execute well, even if they don't result in a perfect performance. Absolutely no shame in starting simple and working your way up until you're satisfied.

What i don't agree with is comments like these that are spreading outright disinformation that leads people to believe it isn't true.

OTOH if you choose not to deal with it, that's fine too. It's your beer. But it doesn't change the fact that you must be very meticulous to get beer that isn't exposed enough to change its character.







Oxygen from the air dissolves into wort insanely fast. Not to mention that 21% of air is oxygen...

What most don't realize is that there isn't a lot of difference between a little oxidation and a lot of oxidation.

Citation needed. I couldn't find a listing where it defined how quickly oxygen dissolves into wort or water. Anecdotally, I've sampled a river for dissolved oxygen and at sunrise could not detect any. Thinking that I had done the procedure wrong I resampled in the afternoon and found it to be at less than 2mg/L. If oxygen dissolves so quickly why did I not find any in an open flowing river on the first sample and less than 2mg/L several hours later?

 

[schematix]

Citation needed. I couldn't find a listing where it defined how quickly oxygen dissolves into wort or water. Anecdotally, I've sampled a river for dissolved oxygen and at sunrise could not detect any. Thinking that I had done the procedure wrong I resampled in the afternoon and found it to be at less than 2mg/L. If oxygen dissolves so quickly why did I not find any in an open flowing river on the first sample and less than 2mg/L several hours later?

Google 'diffusion rate of oxygen into water'. It's a well understood process. Not exactly the same as wort, but close enough for this 'relaxed' discusison.

If you couldn't detect DO in river water your instrument wasn't working correctly or there were some major biological factors affecting it.

Boil a few cups of water for 5-10 minutes (this will give you a DO of near 0). Put that pot in a sink of ice water and once at a safe temp for your meter, start recording DO every 15 minutes. You'll be back at saturation (approx 8ppm) in less than a couple hours.

 

[Morrey]

I want to make awesome beer. I don't just want drinkable beer.

Good for you! Your motivation to make awesome beer will drive you to dig in and read and research. Of course there are many different ways to arrive at the same place (awesome beer) so much of what you'll read on HBT is simply one persons way of accomplishing a particular goal.

And I'll never just say screw it....drink it anyway regardless of good or bad - and I wouldn't expect you to say that either.

 

[schematix]

THANK YOU THANK YOU. I have been researching home brewing like crazy lately. Albeit on my 3rd batch I feel like I have a decent understanding of the process and I am so sick of the RHAHB mantra... Sure its a hobby I don't poor my heart and sole into it but I want to make awesome beer. I don't just want drinkable beer. I've never been into a hobby and while researching have I had so many people tell me to relax... THAT'S WHY I AM HERE!

And that't my short rant for the day.

As with most things, that are different schools of thought about brewing and no one method is the 'right' way.

In my experience (and this thread is a perfect example of what happens here every day) is that most people on HBT are not scientifically or mathematically inclined. In fact they get quite uppity (e.g.replies above) when science and facts are brought into brewing discussions. It's evokes a zealous response in many people.

I'd suggest adding another website to your reading: http://www.********************/forum/

Half is about about reducing oxygen in beer, which does net you a certain result, but generally it's a more scientifically minded crowd. No one there will ever tell you RDWHAHB. It's not quite as lively as here, but the information is much better IMO.

 

[Miraculix]

I have a bucket that doesn't seal tight, primary in there for at least two weeks, am curious af so open the lid during that time at least ten times to see what's going on in there and I bottle directly out of the valve into the primed bottle without any tube and make great beers, which are also still great after a year.

This whole oxygenation topic is so highly overrated, it's almost unbelievable.

 

[schematix]

I have a bucket that doesn't seal tight, primary in there for at least two weeks, am curious af so open the lid during that time at least ten times to see what's going on in there and I bottle directly out of the valve without any tube and make great beers, which are still great after a year.

This whole oxygenation topic is so highly overrated, it's almost unbelievable.

I used to do the same thing but never thought I they were great, just good. Probably just ugly baby syndrome.

 

[RM-MN]

Google 'diffusion rate of oxygen into water'. It's a well understood process. Not exactly the same as wort, but close enough for this 'relaxed' discusison.

If you couldn't detect DO in river water your instrument wasn't working correctly or there were some major biological factors affecting it.

Boil a few cups of water for 5-10 minutes (this will give you a DO of near 0). Put that pot in a sink of ice water and once at a safe temp for your meter, start recording DO every 15 minutes. You'll be back at saturation (approx 8ppm) in less than a couple hours.

OK, i did look up diffusion rate of oxygen into water and found this sentence along with some detailed equations.

"Oxygen is absorbed in water by direct diffusion and by surface-water agitation. Solubility of oxygen in water is so small and by diffusion process alone in still water, it was culculated that it would take 6 years for oxygen to diffuse from surface to a depth of 6 meters in quiet water. Absorption of water is very minor, that almost all the oxygen enrichment of natural waters takes place by agitation of water."

The OP is concerned about the absorption of water into his beer while it is exposed to agitation for less than 2 seconds. This ounce of beer is then mixed with another approximately 11 ounces so it will be about 9% of the volume. Then, because he/she added priming sugar, the yeast will absorb nearly all of it. Not worth worrying about.

 

[schematix]

OK, i did look up diffusion rate of oxygen into water and found this sentence along with some detailed equations.

"Oxygen is absorbed in water by direct diffusion and by surface-water agitation. Solubility of oxygen in water is so small and by diffusion process alone in still water, it was culculated that it would take 6 years for oxygen to diffuse from surface to a depth of 6 meters in quiet water. Absorption of water is very minor, that almost all the oxygen enrichment of natural waters takes place by agitation of water."

The OP is concerned about the absorption of water into his beer while it is exposed to agitation for less than 2 seconds. This ounce of beer is then mixed with another approximately 11 ounces so it will be about 9% of the volume. Then, because he/she added priming sugar, the yeast will absorb nearly all of it. Not worth worrying about.

We're not talking about diffusion in still water to 6m depth.

You are also over stating the abilities of the yeast to consume all oxygen. The yeast will only consume the O2 when it has dissolved into the beer and when it's actively fermenting. The diffusion process is governed by equilibrium. The yeast will have consumed all of that priming sugar long before all that oxygen has had time to diffuse into the beer. This is why the amount of O2 in the headspace must be meticulously lowered.

There's a reason why commercial beer fillers do a vacuum-co2 purge-vacuum-co2 purge-vacuum-co2 purge process before filling, then force the beer to foam and put a cap onto the foam.

 

[RM-MN]

We're not talking about diffusion in still water to 6m depth.

You are also over stating the abilities of the yeast to consume all oxygen. The yeast will only consume the O2 when it has dissolved into the beer and when it's actively fermenting. The diffusion process is governed by equilibrium. The yeast will have consumed all of that priming sugar long before all that oxygen has had time to diffuse into the beer. This is why the amount of O2 in the headspace must be meticulously lowered.

There's a reason why commercial beer fillers do a vacuum-co2 purge-vacuum-co2 purge-vacuum-co2 purge process before filling, then force the beer to foam and put a cap onto the foam.

Not the breweries I viewed. The bottles came down a line with their tops exposed to air, then filled and capped.

Have you filled bottles with a bottle wand? That 2 second exposure to O2 is followed by beer being added in a way that agitates and mixes it. The small amount of O2 introduced should have fully diffused into the beer before the bottler had time to cap the beer if it diffuses into beer so quickly as you seem to think. The actively fermenting of the priming sugar takes some time too, it isn't instantaneous.

 

[ba-brewer]

As with most things, that are different schools of thought about brewing and no one method is the 'right' way.

In my experience (and this thread is a perfect example of what happens here every day) is that most people on HBT are not scientifically or mathematically inclined. In fact they get quite uppity (e.g.replies above) when science and facts are brought into brewing discussions. It's evokes a zealous response in many people.

I'd suggest adding another website to your reading: http://www.********************/forum/

Half is about about reducing oxygen in beer, which does net you a certain result, but generally it's a more scientifically minded crowd. No one there will ever tell you RDWHAHB. It's not quite as lively as here, but the information is much better IMO.

I find it funny you use the word "zealous" with respect to the non-LODO brewers. I think it is the zeal of some of the LODO brewers that puts some people off.

For the record my process is non-LODO and I am open minded to the results and claims of LODO community, but I must also say there are time I read things and I am like Miraculix in that some do seem unbelievable.

I had followed the main LODO thread here for a long time and it was the experiences of some of the less zealous that keep me open minded. I am glad they created an area on this forum for LODO discussions.

 

[schematix]

Not the breweries I viewed. The bottles came down a line with their tops exposed to air, then filled and capped.

Have you filled bottles with a bottle wand? That 2 second exposure to O2 is followed by beer being added in a way that agitates and mixes it. The small amount of O2 introduced should have fully diffused into the beer before the bottler had time to cap the beer if it diffuses into beer so quickly as you seem to think. The actively fermenting of the priming sugar takes some time too, it isn't instantaneous.

Large modern brewers purge as I described.

Lot of micros use cheap low end equipment. I think it shows in the product they put on shelves.

 

[Miraculix]

I used to do the same thing but never thought I they were great, just good. Probably just ugly baby syndrome.

Maybe. Did show a few of them to a professional once who really knows his beers and he agreed with my idea about them. I tend to be hyper critical with everything I am doing, but the beers which turned out great, were great.

 

[Mike Page]

As with most things, that are different schools of thought about brewing and no one method is the 'right' way.

I

I'd suggest adding another website to your reading: http://www.********************/forum/

Half is about about reducing oxygen in beer, which does net you a certain result, but generally it's a more scientifically minded crowd. No one there will ever tell you RDWHAHB. It's not quite as lively as here, but the information is much better IMO.

Thank you for the link. I know forums arent a great place to learn. Sometimes I need a quick answer to a question. Often times an answer like this the ones I am receiving on this thread aren't right or perfect but it my research on this particular subject moving in the correct direction.

Do you have any other suggestions where to look for credible research? I almost through "the joy of homebrewing Vol 3". Which was a good start but if you have any recommendations on where to go from here that would be great.

 

[Sadu]

OP, any steps you make to reduce oxygen uptake on the cold side is a good thing and this advice is not controversial. If you are bottle conditioning this means bare minimum of splashing when stirring priming sugar and no splashing when filling. Use a small 1/2" headspace in each bottle. These aren't that difficult to do with practice. You also want to reduce O2 in the fermentor by not opening the lid unnecessarily.
Later on you want to look into pressure fermenting and closed transfers into kegs which vastly reduces cold side oxygen exposure. These made huge improvements to my beers.
After that there's the rabbit hole of LODO brewing on the hot side. This is much harder because its all or nothing, so get your cold side process sorted first.

 

[schematix]

Do you have any other suggestions where to look for credible research? I almost through "the joy of homebrewing Vol 3". Which was a good start but if you have any recommendations on where to go from here that would be great.

There's a lot to learn and a lot to sift through no doubt. Sounds like you're headed in the right direction.

That book is definitely more introductory in nature. Definitely makes the subject more approachable to get a little taste of everything.

One of my personal favorites is Technology Malting and Brewing by Kunze, but it is an advanced book. There's also a lot of good things to be found here: http://www.********************/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/

 

[Morrey]

After that there's the rabbit hole of LODO brewing on the hot side. This is much harder because its all or nothing, so get your cold side process sorted first.

In total agreement. Cold side O2 elimination has been my focus, whereas my brewing buddy's focus has been hot side. I may be saying this out of school, but I know darn well huge amounts of O2 exposure damage can be done to a beer on a cold side. Hot side to me may be more difficult to sort out the subtle nuances, and while this can be a topic of debate, I elected to focus on the cold side for now.

 

[Mike Page]

Later on you want to look into pressure fermenting and closed transfers into kegs which vastly reduces cold side oxygen exposure. These made huge improvements to my beers.

Thank you for the tips. I am looking at doing pressure transfers.

Since I have you guys here... I know one of the steps I can introduce oxygen is the movement from primary (or secondary) to the bottling bucket. I have access to a nearly limitless supply of 16 and 20-gram co2 cartridges. Would this be enough co2 to start the siphon to the bottling bucket? I hate using my auto siphon. I figure I can use a racking cane and set up one of the co2 cartridges through a second hole (with a way to regulate) in the rubber stopper. Once the siphon starts it doesn't need any positive pressure in the primary correct?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Is this something to be concerned about?

Thanks.

Absolutely not. Do you honestly think 1400's era brewers, or beer drinkers, were in the least bit concerned? It took another ~610 years before anyone mentioned it.