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Alternative Brewing
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AlterBrewer
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Basically, what I'm saying is, that I brew in disregard of some of the accepted scientific facts. If you choose to brew by the book, or anything in between my methods and the book, then great!
My point is you can be a minimalist and just do what is easier or quicker if you have consistently good results. I have certainly thought that maybe I was shortchanging myself by not brewing traditionally, but when I, and some others, compare my beer to commercial breweries, I don't think so.
If anybody is amazed that these processes have served me well, it's me! I'm not asking anybody to change their style, but just figured there were some similar mindsets about this whole brewing concept.
I was actually hoping, too, that there were some other short boil AG brewers out there.
Does anyone out there perform less than 1 hour boils on a regular basis? And is the reason to avoid the long 1 hour boil?
My point is you can be a minimalist and just do what is easier or quicker if you have consistently good results. I have certainly thought that maybe I was shortchanging myself by not brewing traditionally, but when I, and some others, compare my beer to commercial breweries, I don't think so.
If anybody is amazed that these processes have served me well, it's me! I'm not asking anybody to change their style, but just figured there were some similar mindsets about this whole brewing concept.
I was actually hoping, too, that there were some other short boil AG brewers out there.
Does anyone out there perform less than 1 hour boils on a regular basis? And is the reason to avoid the long 1 hour boil?
AlterBrewer
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Thanks for the kind words! But if you want to see trolling, I think you've come to the wrong place.
I really don't want to argue, people. Why the nitpicking?
Some have countered my posts in a proper manner, some haven't. I would just like to see it more civil.
supe_kitchen
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I still say you are making prison hooch. Put your beers up against some Firestone Walker, Odell's, Ommegang, or any other exceptional brewery (see GABF winners) and then see how you like your alternative brews. If your motive is to make cheap quick beer, why go all grain? To settle all this, put your beers in a competition and post the results. You may even win a medal and make this thread even more interesting.
Just as a side note I have never entered a comp and don't really intend to, but I do see it as way to get good outside feedback if you are unsure about your palate. Just cause your buddies like your beer doesn't mean it's good. I have made some beers that I thought were crap and had lots I people tell me it was great.
Also don't think I am hating on your approach, I say stay open minded and try everything on your own to be sure what works and what doesn't. But if you really want to brew great beer consistently, it is pretty difficult if you are just throwing a bunch of stuff together and hoping for the best.
Just as a side note I have never entered a comp and don't really intend to, but I do see it as way to get good outside feedback if you are unsure about your palate. Just cause your buddies like your beer doesn't mean it's good. I have made some beers that I thought were crap and had lots I people tell me it was great.
Also don't think I am hating on your approach, I say stay open minded and try everything on your own to be sure what works and what doesn't. But if you really want to brew great beer consistently, it is pretty difficult if you are just throwing a bunch of stuff together and hoping for the best.
cdubbaya
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Somehow I read this entire thread, here's what I got out of it.
You brew to make beer, using techniques you learned from this thread. Great. You also brew styles that are typically pretty basic to most brewers. Great. You have no desire to learn about the Brewing Science that could help you expand the hobby you love, and that's also fine. But claiming you don't need to worry about the "Voodoo" to make great beer, is limiting your ability to make great beer.
Of course, "great beer" is subjective, but that's why we have competitions, standards boards, and thousands of breweries (both big and small) that strive to expand our pallets and progress the styles from thousands of years of beer making.
But hell, just when you think you've read it all and brewed it all, someone comes up with a Doughnut Bacon Maple Ale and screws it all up again. :cross:
You brew to make beer, using techniques you learned from this thread. Great. You also brew styles that are typically pretty basic to most brewers. Great. You have no desire to learn about the Brewing Science that could help you expand the hobby you love, and that's also fine. But claiming you don't need to worry about the "Voodoo" to make great beer, is limiting your ability to make great beer.
Of course, "great beer" is subjective, but that's why we have competitions, standards boards, and thousands of breweries (both big and small) that strive to expand our pallets and progress the styles from thousands of years of beer making.
But hell, just when you think you've read it all and brewed it all, someone comes up with a Doughnut Bacon Maple Ale and screws it all up again. :cross:
terrapinj
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keep in mind that we all have different intentions as well
some are simply happy making beer that tastes good, there is a guy at my LHBS that has apparently been brewing the same exact recipe every time for many many years - and he's perfectly happy with that
there are others that strive to learn every little minutia and detail on how to make the absolute best beer possible and will nitpick every little detail to find a flaw or room for improvement in every beer.
some people want to make beer, others want to make the best beer possible and strive to keep learning, and many fall in between
there are many different ways to brew, you need to find what works best for you and what brings a smile to your face after the 1st sip of a new batch
don't get hung up on what others do but remember there are many people who come here that have little to no knowledge on brewing and can easily develop bad habits based off of what they read; HBT comes up 1st for a number of google searches on most brewing related topics and for some people what we type here can be their 1st and perhaps only exposure to homebrewing
some are simply happy making beer that tastes good, there is a guy at my LHBS that has apparently been brewing the same exact recipe every time for many many years - and he's perfectly happy with that
there are others that strive to learn every little minutia and detail on how to make the absolute best beer possible and will nitpick every little detail to find a flaw or room for improvement in every beer.
some people want to make beer, others want to make the best beer possible and strive to keep learning, and many fall in between
there are many different ways to brew, you need to find what works best for you and what brings a smile to your face after the 1st sip of a new batch
don't get hung up on what others do but remember there are many people who come here that have little to no knowledge on brewing and can easily develop bad habits based off of what they read; HBT comes up 1st for a number of google searches on most brewing related topics and for some people what we type here can be their 1st and perhaps only exposure to homebrewing
So many impassioned replies. I guess some feelings got hurt or toes were stepped on.
The guy shared some of the more unorthodox techniques. Maybe if you've been on this site 3 years you heard it all already, but a lot of us haven't. I'm not going to throw away time tested techniques because I read his post, but I'm still glad I did.
The point of the forum is to share and discuss homebrew techniques, right? No need to belittle people for doing so. As a new user it's not an encouraging sign.
EDIT: I came to this particular post because it was tweeted. Odd, since apparently it has no value.
The guy shared some of the more unorthodox techniques. Maybe if you've been on this site 3 years you heard it all already, but a lot of us haven't. I'm not going to throw away time tested techniques because I read his post, but I'm still glad I did.
The point of the forum is to share and discuss homebrew techniques, right? No need to belittle people for doing so. As a new user it's not an encouraging sign.
EDIT: I came to this particular post because it was tweeted. Odd, since apparently it has no value.
BrewKnurd
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No one's feelings got hurt. No on feels their toes were stepped on. No one cares what the OP does in his brewing. They do, however, care if he presents things as having no impact they have been shown to have impact. Maybe he doesn't detect them, and that's great for him. But to not point out that these things CAN cause a difference does a disservice to people that may just be getting into brewing.
The "belittling" has little to do with what he wanted to talk about, a much more to do with HOW he chose to talk about. I'm sorry if this is hard for people to accept, but the reality of the world is that how you say things matters.
squirrelly
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Very well said. I could not agree more. This coming from the brewer who uses a fully automated, fully digital, closed system to brew homebrew.....
annasdadhockey
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Does anyone find this post funny?
McCheese352
Active Member
If those methods you espouse make what you consider to be "good" beer that’s great, continue on, I'm not gonna call you out on it. But claiming things like introduction of O2 post fermentation doesn’t cause oxidation or finely ground grain husks don't contribute to tannin issues is pretty brave.
I'm only gonna speak for myself here, but I'm not happy making "good" beer; if I want that there are plenty of alternatives at the liquor-mart for dirt cheap. Rather than "good" beer I want to make excellent beer and to make excellent beer I think I need to accept some commonly accepted ideas and employ what are current best practices in homebrewing.
Yes accepted ideas can be proven false and best practices can change, but doing so requires a higher level of confidence than “I did it this way and my friends think it’s good… so it must be ok". I’m sure methods like BIAB and no chill were scoffed at to begin with, but enough people put those methods to work and got enough independent validation to prove they are legitimate methods. Much like boils or mash temps or minimizing O2 exposure, enough people have seen enough improvement in their brewing, by putting tighter controls around these variables, that they become commonly accepted.
Personally, I think that’s the point of HBT or any other homebrewing community; pushing homebrewers to make better beer.
I'm only gonna speak for myself here, but I'm not happy making "good" beer; if I want that there are plenty of alternatives at the liquor-mart for dirt cheap. Rather than "good" beer I want to make excellent beer and to make excellent beer I think I need to accept some commonly accepted ideas and employ what are current best practices in homebrewing.
Yes accepted ideas can be proven false and best practices can change, but doing so requires a higher level of confidence than “I did it this way and my friends think it’s good… so it must be ok". I’m sure methods like BIAB and no chill were scoffed at to begin with, but enough people put those methods to work and got enough independent validation to prove they are legitimate methods. Much like boils or mash temps or minimizing O2 exposure, enough people have seen enough improvement in their brewing, by putting tighter controls around these variables, that they become commonly accepted.
Personally, I think that’s the point of HBT or any other homebrewing community; pushing homebrewers to make better beer.
stamandster
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When does a method really become an alternative method of brewing? And then when does it become traditional?
I think for him he thought what he was doing was outside the box or norm. I think he sincerely didn't think many others were doing these things. That his beer tasted consistently the same with his methods. And what he makes he thinks is good beer. Perhaps all you wanted to really do is let other people know your methods for brewing, not necessarily that they were the best way to go about it. But I also think it was your continued responses that may have dug the hole slightly.
I think the thread is a cautionary tale. These replying to you are also meaning well because they are trying really hard to help others to create great beer, not just beer (anyone can make beer). Maybe insinuating that the these "alternative" methods are in someway better than the proven (though many years and brewers empirical evidence or actual scientific foundation) methods (not calling them traditional mind you) stuck a cord to help inform not only you but others.
I do implore you to research a little more in regards to hop utilization and boil times, proper milling procedures, when tannins are actually extracted, mashing procedures and temperatures (and types of mashes like parti-gyle and stepped), post fermentation oxidation.
I just hope we can all learn from this... perhaps the thread should be locked?
I think for him he thought what he was doing was outside the box or norm. I think he sincerely didn't think many others were doing these things. That his beer tasted consistently the same with his methods. And what he makes he thinks is good beer. Perhaps all you wanted to really do is let other people know your methods for brewing, not necessarily that they were the best way to go about it. But I also think it was your continued responses that may have dug the hole slightly.
I think the thread is a cautionary tale. These replying to you are also meaning well because they are trying really hard to help others to create great beer, not just beer (anyone can make beer). Maybe insinuating that the these "alternative" methods are in someway better than the proven (though many years and brewers empirical evidence or actual scientific foundation) methods (not calling them traditional mind you) stuck a cord to help inform not only you but others.
I do implore you to research a little more in regards to hop utilization and boil times, proper milling procedures, when tannins are actually extracted, mashing procedures and temperatures (and types of mashes like parti-gyle and stepped), post fermentation oxidation.
I just hope we can all learn from this... perhaps the thread should be locked?
Nope. Perfectly legitimate debate going on here. Remain cordial and on topic.
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With all do respect to everyone, it's a little ego-centric to think that HBT is revolutionizing the homebrewing scene. Sure, some of the newer techniques has been discussed to death here, but even with the vast size of HBT, it's still really small in comparison to the overall homebrewing scene in America (let alone the world).
Case in point - at NHC this year there were well over 1900 paid attendees, and I'm guessing way less than 100 attendees that are HBT-active.
Yes, I know there's a lot more from HBT who have attended NHC in the past (or wanted to attend in 2011 but couldn't/didn't); but my point is that while we may always see new threads/discussions about stuff here (or in BYO, Zymurgy, etc.) there's still thousands and thousands of brewers getting fed the ol' "get your beer off the yeast quick or it's gross" stuff from the older sources and homebrew stores...
I'm willing to bet there's at least 300:1 brewers in this country that aren't on HBT...
Case in point - at NHC this year there were well over 1900 paid attendees, and I'm guessing way less than 100 attendees that are HBT-active.
Yes, I know there's a lot more from HBT who have attended NHC in the past (or wanted to attend in 2011 but couldn't/didn't); but my point is that while we may always see new threads/discussions about stuff here (or in BYO, Zymurgy, etc.) there's still thousands and thousands of brewers getting fed the ol' "get your beer off the yeast quick or it's gross" stuff from the older sources and homebrew stores...
I'm willing to bet there's at least 300:1 brewers in this country that aren't on HBT...
squirrelly
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I agree; HBT is very new to me. The only reason I started posting and reading on the boards was because there is an iPhone native app for it in the app store. It happened to pop up when I did a search for "homebrew." however, I have been on the brewing network boards since 06, the more beer forums since 07, and of course the ten or so local clubs' in my area boards.
I am actually enjoying this thread. I brew primarily not because I like beer that much, but rather I love the science behind every aspect of brewing. Some of the ideas I've read here, while they may not be "revolutionary," are quite fascinating. The only one I have really had a problem with thus far was the no chill method. Jamil just gave a presentation on this not too long ago saying for some reason this idea has gathered steam in Australia. In theory it sounds great to minimize O2 introduction on the cold side, contamination, and shave 10-30 minutes off your brew day. The issue he was talking about, and I can't help but agree is how are you dealing with the DMS factor from such a slow cool down and no cold break? If anyone is practicing this method I'd love to hear your procedure for combating DMS; I'm honestly intrigued.
I am actually enjoying this thread. I brew primarily not because I like beer that much, but rather I love the science behind every aspect of brewing. Some of the ideas I've read here, while they may not be "revolutionary," are quite fascinating. The only one I have really had a problem with thus far was the no chill method. Jamil just gave a presentation on this not too long ago saying for some reason this idea has gathered steam in Australia. In theory it sounds great to minimize O2 introduction on the cold side, contamination, and shave 10-30 minutes off your brew day. The issue he was talking about, and I can't help but agree is how are you dealing with the DMS factor from such a slow cool down and no cold break? If anyone is practicing this method I'd love to hear your procedure for combating DMS; I'm honestly intrigued.
stamandster
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I use it, but only on my lagers. I use my immersion chiller to get the wort down to about 70º, then follow the no-chill method. Technically, at that point I'd be pitching an ale pretty much, so I'm not really using no-chill per se. But I can confirm that I've never had issues making lagers this way.
squirrelly
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I can understand that. Going from 212 to 70* with an immersion chiller should give you about a 10 min. Cool down plus a cold break where DMS would dissipate rapidly.
I was referring to the method spoken about by JZ where the brewer would run off the wort at flame out into the fermenter and come back the next morning to pitch the yeast. From everything I've studied I could personally not advocate such a practice.
I was referring to the method spoken about by JZ where the brewer would run off the wort at flame out into the fermenter and come back the next morning to pitch the yeast. From everything I've studied I could personally not advocate such a practice.
Nah, I think I'll keep it. Methinks he needs to read some of our info. Then he wouldn't think things like no-chill is revolutionary.
And had he read our stuff he might have considered a vinator to sanitize his bottles, lot simpler and quicker than his method.
:fro:
I like the vinator, I just got one and bottles 4 batches with it. Good stuff!
supe_kitchen
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Where I have to agree with OP is that you have to do some things out of the box, but mostly to be able to understand the result. I personally have no opinion on not chilling my wort, because it is a practice I don't use. I think you have to do it and see what happens to be able to comment on it, which OP has done and enjoys the result of.
My main problem is the whole idea of cutting out control points for the sake of time. No-chill doesn't sound very time efficient, but you know what is? A plate chiller! Also bottling with no wand just to prove you aren't scared of oxidation. Wouldn't using a wand and doing things faster be better, or even kegging to cut more time out? If time is a problem, why go all-grain?
For me homebrewing is cooking. When I am in the kitchen I am trying to make awesome food, even on weeknights with little time. It would be easier to just heat up a hot pocket and be happy with it, but I would rather put in time and make something nice. This same concept goes into my homebrewing. It is why my system has constantly evolved and grown, for the betterment of my brews. Honestly, I think it is alternative brewing to homebrew at all since everyone everywhere is surrounded by wildly popular ****ty beer.
My main problem is the whole idea of cutting out control points for the sake of time. No-chill doesn't sound very time efficient, but you know what is? A plate chiller! Also bottling with no wand just to prove you aren't scared of oxidation. Wouldn't using a wand and doing things faster be better, or even kegging to cut more time out? If time is a problem, why go all-grain?
For me homebrewing is cooking. When I am in the kitchen I am trying to make awesome food, even on weeknights with little time. It would be easier to just heat up a hot pocket and be happy with it, but I would rather put in time and make something nice. This same concept goes into my homebrewing. It is why my system has constantly evolved and grown, for the betterment of my brews. Honestly, I think it is alternative brewing to homebrew at all since everyone everywhere is surrounded by wildly popular ****ty beer.
ArcaneXor
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I don't "no-chill", but have several friends who do, and DMS is not a problem even in Pilsner-based beers. It's simply a matter of boiling the wort long enough to reduce the DMS precursor SMM to such low levels that post-boil DMS formation remains below the taste threshold. For Pilsner malt, that is somewhere around 90-100 minutes; for pale and other malts somewhere between 60-75 minutes.
squirrelly
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Ok I can see where that would work. Personally I think I'd still boil for 60 min keeping my gas bill reasonably low, and spend 10 minutes chilling my wort with no DMS. Also the idea of pitching my yeast 12 hours after brew day makes me quite fearful of rogue bugs getting into the wort before my yeast strain can take off.
ArcaneXor
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Pilsner-based beers should be boiled for 90 minutes anyway, or you will get DMS, quick chill or no.
The delayed pitch is also not an issue. I always pitch my yeast the next day because it takes my fridge overnight to get the beer down from tap water to pitching temperature. Never had any problems, even in one case where I had a bad batch of yeast and it took a repitch and a total of 5 days for fermentation to take off. No-chill brewers sometimes wait days or more to pitch their yeast without ill effects.
squirrelly
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Huh, well while that may work for some brewers I am not gutsy enough to try it. I'll stick with jamil's advice, for after all he is the homebrewing pope.
BrewKnurd
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the fact that he was dubbed pope jamil is even funnier now that he started heretic brewing.
Cellarbrau
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There should be more threads like this!
I probably brewed for like 2 years before I realized how handy an avinator or spray bottle would be! It's funny how preoccupied I was thinking about recipe formulation and process and needlessly panicking back then. I'd go thru a 6 hour cluster f*&^ of a bottling day fretting over my 60% mash efficency.
I still don't know what the best resource is for new brewers. How to Brew is about all I recommend right now.
I probably brewed for like 2 years before I realized how handy an avinator or spray bottle would be! It's funny how preoccupied I was thinking about recipe formulation and process and needlessly panicking back then. I'd go thru a 6 hour cluster f*&^ of a bottling day fretting over my 60% mash efficency.
I still don't know what the best resource is for new brewers. How to Brew is about all I recommend right now.
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Interesting read.
Maybe to some people...
squirrelly
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Perhaps that's subjective, but as the most decorated homebrewer in history, someone with a firm background in microbiology, and one who started his own brewery, I tend to pay attention to what he says.
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Interesting; this thread starts off with "don't do anything the experts say to do" and ends with "do whatever jamil says to do"
squirrelly
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What better retort for such an argument? Jamil says himself he is a "lazy brewer," and a lot of the practices he advises are not what was preached 10 years ago. That is the point I am trying to make. Why not take the extensive research he and other experts have put to the test and experiment for yourself? The only way you will figure out what best works for you is to try a couple different things throughout your brew day and then do a side by side blind taste. Figure out which beer is really better with which practice. I don't care if my brew day is 10 hours long so long as I'm making beer that will get good feedback, and perhaps some hardware.
I plan on doing this tomorrow. I'm brewing my house beer, a west coast IPA, one batch will be cooled with my conventional whirlpool and the other won't be cooled at all. Once it's all said and done I will do a side by side and see which beer I can detect the least amount of sulfides in and which comes out cleaner. Who knows, I may surprise myself and learn chilling is not needed, but I seriously doubt it
I plan on doing this tomorrow. I'm brewing my house beer, a west coast IPA, one batch will be cooled with my conventional whirlpool and the other won't be cooled at all. Once it's all said and done I will do a side by side and see which beer I can detect the least amount of sulfides in and which comes out cleaner. Who knows, I may surprise myself and learn chilling is not needed, but I seriously doubt it
Seven
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You seem to be contradicting yourself. If you say you should try things for yourself, which I completely agree with, then why does it matter so much what JZ says?
It sounds as though you've already made up your mind about no-chill without even trying it.
BrewKnurd
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To me, its not a contradiction to say that you should try things on your own while still listening to what others say. Learning is a blend of trying things yourself and listening to what others have to say.
I mean, there's a reason that even the most experimental of us don't go out and put water in our gas tank to see if our car will run on it.
Anyways, my point is that there's a spectrum between "try everything yourself" and "learn from others" and no one is all one or the other. We're just at varying points on that spectrum.
Seven
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Yes but to say you're not gutsy enough to try it then later say "you simply have to try things for yourself" is a contradiction.
BrewKnurd
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Seven said:
Or he just thinks done things need to be tried and others don't. If you think there has to be a contradiction there, so be it. I don't agree, and I'm ok with that.
MaxOut
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Quote from OP-
"A lot of people would like a shorter, easier brew day when it comes to AG. I'm presenting some valid shortcuts. I enjoy brewing, too, but not if it is in the traditional time frame. I think a lot of processes are overdone. Just relax and make it simple, if the end result is acceptable."
I dont disagree with whether or not the OP is brewing by his own words "acceptable beers" but based on the practices been used I would be surprised if the OP can repeat any of them. Not a dig just not what I'm looking for and should be clearly stated for new brewers. If brewing acceptable beers as fast as possible is your thing then you has some good points but not sure any myth busting is going on. I also cant imagine you will get better hop utilization out of hops boiled for 2-3 minutes verses hops boiled for 60-90 min?? I may be wrong but I think "acceptable beers says it all. I for one did not invest a small fortune in time and equipment to brew acceptable non-repeatable beers.
If it works for you and your happy with the results that all that maters
"A lot of people would like a shorter, easier brew day when it comes to AG. I'm presenting some valid shortcuts. I enjoy brewing, too, but not if it is in the traditional time frame. I think a lot of processes are overdone. Just relax and make it simple, if the end result is acceptable."
I dont disagree with whether or not the OP is brewing by his own words "acceptable beers" but based on the practices been used I would be surprised if the OP can repeat any of them. Not a dig just not what I'm looking for and should be clearly stated for new brewers. If brewing acceptable beers as fast as possible is your thing then you has some good points but not sure any myth busting is going on. I also cant imagine you will get better hop utilization out of hops boiled for 2-3 minutes verses hops boiled for 60-90 min?? I may be wrong but I think "acceptable beers says it all. I for one did not invest a small fortune in time and equipment to brew acceptable non-repeatable beers.
If it works for you and your happy with the results that all that maters
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I dont disagree with whether or not the OP is brewing by his own words "acceptable beers" but based on the practices been used I would be surprised if the OP can repeat any of them. Not a dig just not what I'm looking for and should be clearly stated for new brewers. If brewing acceptable beers as fast as possible is your thing then you has some good points but not sure any myth busting is going on. I also cant imagine you will get better hop utilization out of hops boiled for 2-3 minutes verses hops boiled for 60-90 min?? I may be wrong but I think "acceptable beers says it all. I for one did not invest a small fortune in time and equipment to brew acceptable non-repeatable beers.
If it works for you and your happy with the results that all that maters
That you did and it's stunning!
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