Alpine Nelson Clone Attempt

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Yeah we really need to work on this one. I'm just waiting on the 2014 crop of nelson sauvin to show up, and I will be actively involved with this thread.
 
I brewed this last Saturday(Oct. 18th) dry hopped 2 days ago. samples are promising and color is very close

I'm not doing the 48*, 2 week dry hop; but rather a 5 day warm dry hop.

Hope to have this in the keg next weekend


PS - 2014 nelson is available at farmhouse brewing supply
 
jammin said:
I brewed this last Saturday(Oct. 18th) dry hopped 2 days ago. samples are promising and color is very close

I'm not doing the 48*, 2 week dry hop; but rather a 5 day warm dry hop.

Hope to have this in the keg next weekend


PS - 2014 nelson is available at farmhouse brewing supply
Click to expand...


After all this discussion, what was your recipe of choice?
 
it's still carbing up but i think we're in the right track. I'll post up more thoughts when I have some time drink the conditioned product.

I'd like to get some down to my friend in San Diego for review as well. I've only had 1 bottle of nelson but he drinks it all the time.
 
its good, but not nelson.

i dont think that 50/50 nelson/southern cross is the ticket. nor do i think it needs much, if any carapils/foam.

i skewed the rye % to be heavier on the flaked rye, which i also think is a mistake. the rye character was a little low.

my beer is a little too sweet - not as crisp and light as a i remember nelson. the hop profile needs more nelson punch/pop as well.

i really need another bottle of nelson to help get me back on track but i think my next version will be much closer

i should add that i finished @ 1.012 with 7% abv so i nailed the numbers
 
My Nelson hops are on the way. Attached is the recipe I'll be brewing.

*Notes*

Water Profile should be close to San Diego

Calcium: 58 ppm
Bicarbonate 139 ppm
Magnesium 23 ppm
Sodium 88 ppm
Chloride 100 ppm
Sulfate 176 ppm
Alkalinity 114 ppm

I'll be using Lactic Acid to adjust mash pH into the 5.4 - 5.5 range and prevent sparge water from extracting tannins.

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Wyeast American Ale 1056
Yeast Starter: Yes
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter: NA
Batch Size (Gallons): 10.5
Original Gravity: 1.069
Final Gravity: 1.014
IBU: 50
Boiling Time (Minutes): 90
Color: 5 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 10 - 12 days, 65 F
Additional Fermentation: (Dry Hop) 2 weeks at 48F
Tasting Notes: NA

(My recipe's grist weight is scaled for 83% efficiency)

Fermentables:
Single infusion mash, 1 hour @ 150F, batch sparge
UK 2 Row Pale Malt - 15.5lbs (63.27%)
UK Maris Otter - 3lbs (12.24%)
Rye Malt - 2.5lbs (10.2%)
Flaked Rye - 2.5lbs (10.2%)
Mild Ale Malt - 1lb (4.08%)

Hops:
Pacific Gem 14.6AA - 1 oz -FWH (24 AAU)
Nelson Sauvin 12.5AA - 1 oz -30 min (15 AAU)
Southern Cross 12.5AA - 0.5 oz - 15 min (5 AAU)
Nelson Sauvin 12.5AA - 1 oz - 5 min (4 AAU)
Southern Cross 12.5AA - 1 oz - 5 min (4 AAU)

Dry Hop:
5 oz ea/Nelson Sauvin & Southern Cross 14 days @ 48F


*Mild Ale malt is just Cargill's version of Dextrine malt. At 4% of grist all it will do is add a hint of body and near-balance the dryness of the 20% rye.
 
Look forward to hearing your results. Never had the commercial beer, but it sounds like something I would like and something I would brew.
 
FourSeasonAngler said:
My Nelson hops are on the way. Attached is the recipe I'll be brewing.

*Notes*

Water Profile should be close to San Diego

Calcium: 58 ppm
Bicarbonate 139 ppm
Magnesium 23 ppm
Sodium 88 ppm
Chloride 100 ppm
Sulfate 176 ppm
Alkalinity 114 ppm

I'll be using Lactic Acid to adjust mash pH into the 5.4 - 5.5 range and prevent sparge water from extracting tannins.

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Wyeast American Ale 1056
Yeast Starter: Yes
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter: NA
Batch Size (Gallons): 10.5
Original Gravity: 1.069
Final Gravity: 1.014
IBU: 50
Boiling Time (Minutes): 90
Color: 5 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 10 - 12 days, 65 F
Additional Fermentation: (Dry Hop) 2 weeks at 48F
Tasting Notes: NA

(My recipe's grist weight is scaled for 83% efficiency)

Fermentables:
Single infusion mash, 1 hour @ 150F, batch sparge
UK 2 Row Pale Malt - 15.5lbs (63.27%)
UK Maris Otter - 3lbs (12.24%)
Rye Malt - 2.5lbs (10.2%)
Flaked Rye - 2.5lbs (10.2%)
Mild Ale Malt - 1lb (4.08%)

Hops:
Pacific Gem 14.6AA - 1 oz -FWH (24 AAU)
Nelson Sauvin 12.5AA - 1 oz -30 min (15 AAU)
Southern Cross 12.5AA - 0.5 oz - 15 min (5 AAU)
Nelson Sauvin 12.5AA - 1 oz - 5 min (4 AAU)
Southern Cross 12.5AA - 1 oz - 5 min (4 AAU)

Dry Hop:
5 oz ea/Nelson Sauvin & Southern Cross 14 days @ 48F


*Mild Ale malt is just Cargill's version of Dextrine malt. At 4% of grist all it will do is add a hint of body and near-balance the dryness of the 20% rye.
Click to expand...

So how'd this turn out?
 
Someone on reddit posted this recipe. Seems like they got it from someone who got it from Pat. The amount of hops seems way too low though. Comes out to about 30 IBU which seems pretty low.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/2ukkbo/who_needs_alpine_when_you_can_brew_nelson/

Nelson 1.069/1.016 (5 Gal) - He originally gave me the commercial recipe, so I scaled it down exactly from that and this is why the numbers are odd for 5 gallons. This recipe is spot on though. I doubt you could tell the difference between the beers if you ferment with good temp control and a proper pitch of Chico...

Grain Bill
  • 8.316 lbs. - 2 Row Pale Malt
  • 1.708 lbs. – Maris Otter
  • 2.562 lbs. – Weyermann Rye
  • 0.854 lbs. – Carafoam or Carapils
  • 0.546 lbs. – Acidulated

Hop Schedule
  • FWH – Southern Cross 9 grams
  • 30 Min. – Nelson Sauvin 6 grams
  • 15 Min. – Southern Cross 9 grams
  • 5 Min. – Nelson Sauvin 18 grams
  • 5 Min. – Southern Cross 12 grams
  • Dry hop – Nelson Sauvin 65 grams and Southern Cross 53 grams (7 days after transfer to secondary for 14 days, rouse twice in 2 weeks, early and late.)

Yeast
  • White Labs California Ale Yeast (WLP001) - 1800 mL starter Mash/Sparge/Boil

Mash at 150° for 90 Min. Sparge as usual. Boil for 90 minutes so as not to scorch the wort. Cool and ferment at 68°
 
missigsfan said:
Someone on reddit posted this recipe. Seems like they got it from someone who got it from Pat. The amount of hops seems way too low though. Comes out to about 30 IBU which seems pretty low.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/2ukkbo/who_needs_alpine_when_you_can_brew_nelson/

Nelson 1.069/1.016 (5 Gal) - He originally gave me the commercial recipe, so I scaled it down exactly from that and this is why the numbers are odd for 5 gallons. This recipe is spot on though. I doubt you could tell the difference between the beers if you ferment with good temp control and a proper pitch of Chico...

Grain Bill
  • 8.316 lbs. - 2 Row Pale Malt
  • 1.708 lbs. – Maris Otter
  • 2.562 lbs. – Weyermann Rye
  • 0.854 lbs. – Carafoam or Carapils
  • 0.546 lbs. – Acidulated

Hop Schedule
  • FWH – Southern Cross 9 grams
  • 30 Min. – Nelson Sauvin 6 grams
  • 15 Min. – Southern Cross 9 grams
  • 5 Min. – Nelson Sauvin 18 grams
  • 5 Min. – Southern Cross 12 grams
  • Dry hop – Nelson Sauvin 65 grams and Southern Cross 53 grams (7 days after transfer to secondary for 14 days, rouse twice in 2 weeks, early and late.)

Yeast
  • White Labs California Ale Yeast (WLP001) - 1800 mL starter Mash/Sparge/Boil

Mash at 150° for 90 Min. Sparge as usual. Boil for 90 minutes so as not to scorch the wort. Cool and ferment at 68°
Click to expand...

The acidulated is almost 4% of the grain bill. Do you know if it's just used to adjust the PH or is it part of the recipe?
 
FourSeasonAngler said:
In this style of beer the acidulated is only for pH adjustment. You will need to scale your use according to your water requirements.
Click to expand...

Thank you. That's what I figured, but I just wanted to make sure. What was throwing me off was that it's making up approximately 4% of the grain bill, which I thought would impart some flavor?
 
Here is what I gathered from the video so far for the grain bill. Most of it matches what has previously been said.

850lb grain bill
1x 55lb sack of Simpson Maris Otter (6.5%)
1x 55lb sack of Weyermann CaraFoam (6.5%)
3x 50lb sacks of Grain Millers Rolled/Flaked Rye (17.6%)
1x 20lb~ 5 gallon mystery bucket (2.4%)
1x 20lb~ 5 gallon mystery bucket (2.4%)
1x 20lb~ 5 gallon mystery bucket (2.4%)
1x 25lb~ 6 gallon mystery bucket (2.9%)
1x 25lb~ 6 gallon mystery bucket (2.9%)
1x 505lbs 2Row (59.4%)

The unknown remains - What is in those buckets?

If 2x 5 gallon and 1x 6 gallon bucket are indeed Rye as the video indicates, that would put the total rye at 25.3% of the grain bill... seems too high. If the buckets contain no rye, and just the 3 sacks of flaked rye are used that is 17.6% rye...

carafoam.png

Maris_Otter.png

rolled_rye.png

rolled_rye_back.png

buckets.png


It could be rye based on appearance...
16900_1.jpg
 
The recipe I am going with. I may not get to this one for a couple months so I might make some tweaks by then.

OG 1.065
FG 1.012
7%abv
50ibu

67.1% 2 Row
17.6% Flaked Rye
6.5% Maris Otter
6.5% Carafoam
2.4% Rye Malt
Acidulated malt as needed for pH

NZ Rakau FWH 28ibu
NZ Nelson Sauvin 30min from end 13ibu
NZ Southern Cross 15min from end 9ibu
NZ Nelson Sauvin flame out (Im doing .75oz for 3.5gal)
NZ Southern Cross flame out (Im doing .75oz for 3.5gal)
NZ Nelson Sauvin dry hop (I'm doing 3oz for 3.5gal). Drop to 48 degrees, remove yeast and dry hops for 1 week.

WLP001

My IPA water profile:
Ca: 90
Mg: 11
Na: 17
SO: 225
Cl: 50
 
^i think your dry hopping ratio looks good. The flaked rye is too high though, especially with that much dextrin malt.

When I brewed this, I dry hopped 50/50 with nelson and SC. Next time I'm going 2:1 nelson:SC.

I'm also gonna cut the dextrin malt and go 60:40 on the malted:flaked rye. 20% total
 
jammin said:
The flaked rye is too high though, especially with that much dextrin malt.
. 20% total
Click to expand...

It does seem high... but trying to figure out what I got wrong from the video. I'm almost 100% certain that those are 3x 50lb bags of flaked rye by Grain Millers. They said 850lbs of grain total so thats 17.6% flaked rye. Hmmm
 
Get your recipe square with around 20% total rye content. My estimate was close to 50/50 flaked/malted.

Alpine Nelson also seemed dry to me so maybe a lower mash temp and less dextrine malt would be in order, but I could be confusing the rye characteristics with the actual FG of the beer. Hard to be certain unless you brew it.

I'm almost certain I won't brew this. I had plans to but sourcing S. Cross locally and going through the ordeal with getting rye has kinda soured my intentions. Plus I really didn't LOVE this beer.

There are many other wonderful examples of Nelson Sauvin beers out there. I'm sitting on 3 lbs. of those hops and should probably start brewing something with them... Probably a Societe Pupil clone...
 
FourSeasonAngler said:
Get your recipe square with around 20% total rye content. My estimate was close to 50/50 flaked/malted.

Alpine Nelson also seemed dry to me so maybe a lower mash temp and less dextrine malt would be in order, but I could be confusing the rye characteristics with the actual FG of the beer. Hard to be certain unless you brew it.

I'm almost certain I won't brew this. I had plans to but sourcing S. Cross locally and going through the ordeal with getting rye has kinda soured my intentions. Plus I really didn't LOVE this beer.

There are many other wonderful examples of Nelson Sauvin beers out there. I'm sitting on 3 lbs. of those hops and should probably start brewing something with them... Probably a Societe Pupil clone...
Click to expand...
Grab some SC from Yakima valley hops. Pretty cheap too.
 
This is the supposed recipe from Pat at Alpine:

(Circa 2011, so YMMV. "They use an addition of flaked rye nowadays and the first hop addition is Exp 05250.")

Nelson 1.069/1.016 (5 Gal) - He originally gave me the commercial recipe, so I scaled it down exactly from that and this is why the numbers are odd for 5 gallons. This recipe is spot on though. I doubt you could tell the difference between the beers if you ferment with good temp control and a proper pitch of Chico...

Grain Bill
8.316 lbs. - 2 Row Pale Malt
1.708 lbs. – Maris Otter
2.562 lbs. – Weyermann Rye
0.854 lbs. – Carafoam or Carapils
0.546 lbs. – Acidulated

Hop Schedule
FWH – Southern Cross 9 grams
30 Min. – Nelson Sauvin 6 grams
15 Min. – Southern Cross 9 grams
5 Min. – Nelson Sauvin 18 grams
5 Min. – Southern Cross 12 grams
Dry hop – Nelson Sauvin 65 grams and Southern Cross 53 grams (7 days after transfer to secondary for 14 days, rouse twice in 2 weeks, early and late.)

Yeast
White Labs California Ale Yeast (WLP001) - 1800 mL starter Mash/Sparge/Boil
Mash at 150° for 90 Min. Sparge as usual. Boil for 90 minutes so as not to scorch the wort. Cool and ferment at 68°
 
Silly question but can i ask what hop EXP 05250 is, does it have a commercial name?
 
Revisiting this recipe since Hopville shut down. The boil IBUs are only 49-ish before the hopstand, which will add more bitterness, but appear smoother in character. Not brewing this now, just brainstorming...

90 minute, 6 gallon boil
5 gallon batch in primary
70-72% efficiency
1.065 / 1.012
5 SRM

Mash Ratio: 1.5 qt. per every 1 lb. grain at 149 for 90 min

8.00# or 64% Great Western American 2-row
1.50# or 12% Weyermann Rye
1.25# or 10% Simpsons Maris Otter
1.00# or 8% Flaked Rye
0.50# or 4% Weyermann CaraFoam
0.25# or 2% Acidulated Malt

0.66 oz. Southern Cross 12.5% pellet @ 60 min
1.25 oz. Nelson Sauvin 12.5% pellet @ 5 min
0.75 oz. Southern Cross 12.5% pellet @ 5 min
2.25 oz. Nelson Sauvin 12.5% pellet @ hopstand
1.00 oz. Southern Cross 12.5% pellet @ hopstand
3.50 oz. Nelson Sauvin 12.5% pellet @ 5 day dryhop
2.00 oz. Southern Cross 12.5% pellet @ 5 day dryhop

Wyeast 1056 starter w/82% attenuation
 
Corbet said:
This is the supposed recipe from Pat at Alpine:

(Circa 2011, so YMMV. "They use an addition of flaked rye nowadays and the first hop addition is Exp 05250.")

Nelson 1.069/1.016 (5 Gal) - He originally gave me the commercial recipe, so I scaled it down exactly from that and this is why the numbers are odd for 5 gallons. This recipe is spot on though. I doubt you could tell the difference between the beers if you ferment with good temp control and a proper pitch of Chico...

Grain Bill
8.316 lbs. - 2 Row Pale Malt
1.708 lbs. – Maris Otter
2.562 lbs. – Weyermann Rye
0.854 lbs. – Carafoam or Carapils
0.546 lbs. – Acidulated

Hop Schedule
FWH – Southern Cross 9 grams
30 Min. – Nelson Sauvin 6 grams
15 Min. – Southern Cross 9 grams
5 Min. – Nelson Sauvin 18 grams
5 Min. – Southern Cross 12 grams
Dry hop – Nelson Sauvin 65 grams and Southern Cross 53 grams (7 days after transfer to secondary for 14 days, rouse twice in 2 weeks, early and late.)

Yeast
White Labs California Ale Yeast (WLP001) - 1800 mL starter Mash/Sparge/Boil
Mash at 150° for 90 Min. Sparge as usual. Boil for 90 minutes so as not to scorch the wort. Cool and ferment at 68°
Click to expand...
I sorta kinda posted this already.
 
Alpine confirmed they only use flaked rye and they do use acidulated malt.
 
Brewed this yesterday and it's just chugging away right now. Color looks pretty spot on. Haven't had a taste yet but the aroma won't fully kick in until I dry hop. Probably one of my smoothest brew days despite missing target mash temp and OG. I have a few different thermometers and they're all pretty inconsistent. At least I know the analog one is most accurate. Target OG was 1.074 and I got about 1.066. Still need to work out the kinks in my system, but I also wound up with about 1/4 gal extra wort.

Also straight from Pat's son, Shawn, "Don't know who told you exp05256 but that is WRONG..." I think he meant 05250, but looking up both gives no results for 05250 and 05256 is something called Pine Fruit. Either 05250 doesn't exist or isn't available to the public. In either case, I think it makes sense that the mystery hop is something New Zealand bred and not US (which 05256 is). EDIT: Confirmed there were no experimental hops used in this brew and only NZ hops.

Twang said:
Alpine confirmed they only use flaked rye and they do use acidulated malt.
Click to expand...
The plot thickens...
 
Twang said:
Alpine confirmed they only use flaked rye and they do use acidulated malt.
Click to expand...

That would go against what is presented in the video. How did you learn of this confirmation?

From the video it is known:

FourSeasonAngler said:
I've been studying that video. Here are some facts:
1 sack of Weyerman Carabohemian *edit- later learned this to be Carafoam
1 sack of Simpson's Maris Otter
3 sacks of Rolled Oat flakes
3 five gallon pails of unidentified grain
2 6 gallon pails of unidentified grain
(4 of which (two 6gal & two 5gal) are "identified as Rye" at one point in the video *but could be misleading)
Base malt 2 row *unspecified quantity
OG 1.065
ABV 7.0%

with a total grain bill of approximately 850lbs.

10 Bbl system
25 Bbl fermenters out back (for Nelson as stated in the video)
They brew twice to get 12 Bbl from each batch.

Batch size: ?
Pulled house yeast off of yeast cake from 4 to 5 day old batch of Nelson.
Added Clarity ferm before adding yeast to wort
FWH: NZ hop variety (unspecified) 2.0 qts pellets *all I could see was volume*
2nd hop addition after 60 minutes: 1 qt. Nelson Sauvin + Whirlfloc
3rd hop addition at 75 minutes: 1 qt. Southern Cross + Yeast Nutrient
4th hop addition at (90 ? ) min: 3 qt. Nelson Sauvin + 2 qt. Southern Cross
Then flameout/knockout.
Cool & O2 wort/transfer to 25Bbl fermenter.
Ferments 7 to 10 days.
Then cold crash & remove yeast cake.
Dry hop w/ (2) 5 gallon buckets of unidentified hops for 2 weeks *circulated*
Click to expand...

If they are only using flaked rye, then the 3 sacks is not enough and there is an imbalance in the grist as shown and as reported.
 
FourSeasonAngler said:
That would go against what is presented in the video. How did you learn of this confirmation?

From the video it is known:



If they are only using flaked rye, then the 3 sacks is not enough and there is an imbalance in the grist as shown and as reported.
Click to expand...

I emailed them and Patrick emailed me back.
"We use all flaked rye and yes we do use acidulated."

No, it goes with the video. See my previous post with screenshots.
850lb grain bill
1x 55lb sack of Simpson Maris Otter (6.5%)
1x 55lb sack of Weyermann CaraFoam (6.5%)
3x 50lb sacks of Grain Millers Rolled/Flaked Rye (17.6%)
1x 20lb~ 5 gallon mystery bucket (2.4%)
1x 20lb~ 5 gallon mystery bucket (2.4%)
1x 20lb~ 5 gallon mystery bucket (2.4%)
1x 25lb~ 6 gallon mystery bucket (2.9%)
1x 25lb~ 6 gallon mystery bucket (2.9%)
1x 505lbs 2Row (59.4%)
 

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