SMaSH IPA - 100% Warminster & EKG. Samuel Smith - "toasted," crystal?

[Gadjobrinus]

While I'm not looking to clone Sam Smith's India Ale, I am after doing a pretty old-school IPA with 100% Warminster MO and healthy EKG additions from start of boil through to dry hopping. One thing that puzzles me a bit is that among the many Smith India Ale clone recipes I've seen, they all include some sort of "toasted malt," whether done at home, or with the addition of something like Victory.

Begs the question, is the Victory or some such thing an attempt to get the biscuity, malty quality inherent to MO in particular? Or is it legitimately part of the Sam Smith India Ale, above and beyond whatever pale malt it is they use?

Secondly, I really like 100% pale malt IPA's. No crystal. That said, I'm seeing upwards of 7% pale crystal in these clones. Is this true to their India Ale?

Finally, not really a question, just a musing, I guess. While I appreciate Golden Promise, I think overall I prefer that toasty, bready maltiness of MO over the intrinsic sweetness of the GP. At least in many of the beers I've now brewed with the GP. Problem is, at our LHBS, we have really good GP (Simpson's) and only so-so MO (imo; Munton's US).

 

[Brewskey]

The CAMRA BYOBRA book doesn't have a recipe for the India Ale. But, there is a recipe for the Sam Smith Old Brewery Bitter and it calls for something like 9% crystal. Not sure on the biscuit malt, English Amber malt maybe? If you want to do a smash go for it.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

The CAMRA BYOBRA book doesn't have a recipe for the India Ale. But, there is a recipe for the Sam Smith Old Brewery Bitter and it calls for something like 9% crystal. Not sure on the biscuit malt, English Amber malt maybe?

Good call on the amber, might do. That surprises me a bit, on the high amount of crystal. My presumption on these northern pales would be 5% at most - but I don't know anything directly, gotten my impressions from northern brewers here (like, well, @Northern_Brewer , lol).

 

[Brewskey]

Good call on the amber, might do. That surprises me a bit, on the high amount of crystal. My presumption on these northern pales would be 5% at most - but I don't know anything directly, gotten my impressions from northern brewers here (like, well, @Northern_Brewer , lol).

Well, we have no idea how accurate the recipes in this book are.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Well, we have no idea how accurate the recipes in this book are.

Yep, agreed. I go with @Northern_Brewer and @cire on just about everything. OK, everything.

Intrigued by the amber, though, cool. Thanks again.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I’m very intrigued by this. I use a lot of maris otter in making my Irish Dry Stout. I also exclusively use EKG hops for this beer. While I really enjoy the roasted barley taste in my recipe, I am looking for a few new, simple recipes. I don’t have a lot of storage capacity for quantities of different grains (working on that), and a new recipe for a beer with the ingredients I do keep around is win-win.

Please keep us posted with your final recipe if you’d be so kind to share.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

Also, wondering how a Kveik would work with this. I have found that Voss works well with the stout. I also used the Lutra Kveik in a blonde ale and it produced a really nice hoppy flavor, even with hops that had been in the freeze for a couple years.

I’m heading for the supply store soon, (maybe today!) to stock up for the coming year, and will keep this in mind.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I’m very intrigued by this. I use a lot of maris otter in making my Irish Dry Stout. I also exclusively use EKG hops for this beer. While I really enjoy the roasted barley taste in my recipe, I am looking for a few new, simple recipes. I don’t have a lot of storage capacity for quantities of different grains (working on that), and a new recipe for a beer with the ingredients I do keep around is win-win.

Please keep us posted with your final recipe if you’d be so kind to share.

You bet. I know I will be doing this SMaSH, and likely some kind of exploration of the Sam Smithesque IPA as well. I absolutely love Warminster - first bite of the malt recently and it all came flooding back.

I have forgotten a ton, and that includes any memory of yeast lineages - I am working pretty exclusively with skimming and re-pitching 1469. The guy I lean on with respect to yeasts, as with so much else, is again @Northern_Brewer . Best of luck!

 

[Bramling Cross]

You have nothing to worry about.

I’ve brewed a ton of Otter/EKG SMASH brews over the years and, well, I keep brewing them. They’re great.

I think Brewskey’s remark about amber is functional. Even though I know it’s all wrong from an historical standpoint, I unabashedly persist in thinking of amber malt as UK victory/biscuit for the purposes of recipe formulation. It can be assertive, so I tend to keep it at 2.5-5%.

Like you, I’m a big fan of Warminster’s Otter—it’s a great value and it isn’t as heavy handed as other maltsters’ versions (which I’ve slowly realized might be optimized for adjunct brewing, hence their more assertive flavor?).

You’re already using a great yeast, so that just leaves the water. Use plenty of gypsum, but you don’t have to be silly about it.

I think you’re going to enjoy this batch, good luck with it!

 

[DBhomebrew]

Biscuit = amber = Victory®

Roughly.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks guys. I used to use both victory and biscuit but hadn't in a long time. I think the nuttiness and breadiness of MO v. GP is enough in that way for me to give the 100% a shot. Goose Island's IPA (before AB takeover, no idea what they're doing now but it's different, inferior) was 100% MO and I liked it quite a bit.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Well, here it is. 5.5 gallons.

GRIST:
100% Warminster MO for OG 1.070.

MASH:
Single thick mash infusion at 152F.

Hopping:
Risking the 19th century hopping rate for 212 IBUs, all EKG at 5.5% AA, across these:
4.5 oz at 90: 111 IBU
3.5 at 60: 78 IBU
2 at 30: 23
5 dry hopping.

Plan to age it out to a year. Also planning on implementing a Brett claussenii per a suggestion for thought by @Northern_Brewer. Not sure when to implement the fermentation regime using Brett - i.e., let it ferment in barrel for several months, then charge with Brett, age to a certain period, bottle. So, for at least an "average" of 19th century practice:

What would be customary time period for aging in barrel ("primary")?
When would Brett be added?
How many weeks before "service," let's say, a year post-brew, do you bottle?

Hoping @Northern_Brewer chimes in, among others.

 

[DBhomebrew]

The 212IBUs are from the recipe, yes? Not what you get by inputting the hops by weight?

Do your primary as you usually do. When it slows to a crawl (at "cleansing gravity"), rack to brett in a secondary vessel (traditionally the brett would live in the "vat") with minimal headroom. Bottle when FG is stable.

With brett, testing for stable gravity might need weeks or more between measurements. I've got one downstairs that's still visibly effervescent, in the brett for 11mo, which dropped a mere point in six weeks.

My first brett beer is now 2yrs since brew date, 14mo since bottling. It's much nicer now than it was at 1yr/2mo. There's no rushing these beers.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

The 212IBUs are from the recipe, yes? Not what you get by inputting the hops by weight?

Do your primary as you usually do. When it slows to a crawl (at "cleansing gravity"), rack to brett in a secondary vessel (traditionally the brett would live in the "vat") with minimal headroom. Bottle when FG is stable.

With brett, testing for stable gravity might need weeks or more between measurements. I've got one downstairs that's still visibly effervescent, in the brett for 11mo, which dropped a mere point in six weeks.

My first brett beer is now 2yrs since brew date, 14mo since bottling. It's much nicer now than it was at 1yr/2mo. There's no rushing these beers.

Thanks much. On the hopping, no, it's trying to come up with 212 IBUs, and it's really an amalgam based on the BU:GU of the 19th century IPAs in Ron's vintage book. That, plus a suggestion to end-load a tad more on a vintage IPA I was working on, per @Northern_Brewer 's thought. Though interestingly to me, none of those recipes has any hop contributions past knockout - 30. Maybe I should just go all in and only hop at 90 min. and 30 min.

So, no, trying to put together the IBUs of his recipe, not the straight weights he gives in the recipes. It's what I come up with by my current EKG and it's AA of 5.5%, and these addition times.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

The 212IBUs are from the recipe, yes? Not what you get by inputting the hops by weight?

Do your primary as you usually do. When it slows to a crawl (at "cleansing gravity"), rack to brett in a secondary vessel (traditionally the brett would live in the "vat") with minimal headroom. Bottle when FG is stable.

With brett, testing for stable gravity might need weeks or more between measurements. I've got one downstairs that's still visibly effervescent, in the brett for 11mo, which dropped a mere point in six weeks.

My first brett beer is now 2yrs since brew date, 14mo since bottling. It's much nicer now than it was at 1yr/2mo. There's no rushing these beers.

A follow-up if I could. This will be pretty assertively dry-hopped per above. My normal routine is to take to FG over 10 days or so; soft-land to 50 over 36 hours or so; dry-hop slurry for 3 days at 50F; crash to 39 x 24 hours, then bottle and allow free-rise to 68-70F for conditioning. (Thanks to @day_trippr for the routine, a slight tweak on what I used to do).

Suggestions for managing the dry-hopping here? Same, take it to end of primary, soft land 50, dry hop, crash to 39, rack off - but allow it to come back to fermentation temp, then pitch the Brett?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Dry hop in secondary with the Brett for the duration. Yep

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Dry hop in secondary with the Brett for the duration. Yep

I use a pellet slurry for dry hopping. Do you mean, just rack over at fermentation temps into the Brett phase, dry hop (in this case, just pellets) for as long as the Brett takes - e.g., a year? I'm guessing vegetal/tannin extraction was part of the profile, at the time.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I don't know what a pellet slurry is, but yes, I just rack at fermentation temp onto dry pellets and brett.

At the time, dry hops weren't for flavor/aroma as much as they were for anti-septic properties. The brett will chew on some of the hop compounds as well. Fun stuff.

You may have noticed, you're not making a punch-you-in-the-face-with-fresh-hops--aroma-modern-IPA.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I don't know what a pellet slurry is, but yes, I just rack at fermentation temp onto dry pellets and brett.

At the time, dry hops weren't for flavor/aroma as much as they were for anti-septic properties. The brett will chew on some of the hop compounds as well. Fun stuff.

You may have noticed, you're not making a punch-you-in-the-face-with-fresh-hops--aroma-modern-IPA.

A pellet slurry is just the pellets macerated in a liquid - I use a beer approximating the actual beer in the FV - stirred gently over several hours, then injected into the FV. It allows for rapid takeup, so a 3-day, cooler dry hopping, 24 hour crash and off hops is doable. It is thought this prevents the pickup of tannins and other undesired vegetal characteristics. I learned it from working for Goose Island back in the day, under Matt Brynildson. They actually recirc it in an empty 20 bbl yeast brink before moving it over to a CCV.

And yep, thanks on the hop character of such a beer as this v. today's IPA. I appreciate today's IPA but have personally been burned out on them, to be honest. I appreciate balance in all things, which is why I prefer British ales. Totally subjective, of course, just my palate.