Allow smoking in our new pub?

[jturb]

I haven't read through this entire thread so what I am going to say may have already been covered. But I see that you plan on serving food. Now are you planning on serving common bar food or are you going with the local fresh well crafted food trend that is very popular now? If you are going with the latter I would suggest to stay away from smoking inside, I for one if going to a brewpub to get a good beer and a nice meal would not want to be eating in a smokey environment. So I would tend to agree that setting up a comfortable outside smoking enviroment may be the best option if your plans are a brewpub that is hoping to attract people that are into good food as well.

 

[Bithead]

I'm a former smoker. Smoked for 30 some years & haven't for the past, ummm coming up on 5 years smoke free. I've only been brewing for about 9 months. I'd prefer to not have anyone smoking around me especially when eating/drinking.
I voted "on the fence".

 

[FatherJack]

In Japan, we still have smoking in restaurants. When it's busy I don't go to the restaurant, and same with many other non smokers. Simple as that.

The Japanese, ever so innovative, came up with a solution. I know you said you had limited space and I would imagine you can't do this, but many places here have a smoking section that is pretty much enclosed and they use a heavy duty air filter to clear the smoke out ASAP. In fact, I have seen many restaurants and even shopping malls that utilize this and it's quite popular. The smoker gets to smoke in comfort, warmth and continue what they're doing (in a relatively cleaner room) while the non-smoker doesn't have to smell it.

Another solution would be to create non smoking times and gauge how popular it is. If you find the non-smoking times draw in more customers than their smoking time counterparts for the same time slot, I think this is a clear signal.

Hope that helps.

EDIT: I was also wondering, if you protest all the way on smoking, will this create a rift in your relationship with your partners? I know it's easy to show the data you got here, but keep in mind, this data might not reflect your actual clientele.

 

[Budzu]

Wait...Did I misread the OP? You will be SELLING your own homebrews?

They won't technically be homebrews... since I'll be brewing in the pub on a system built just for it. They will of course be the recipes and techniques and even brewhouse designs that I've worked with as a homebrewer so far.

From another smoking thread - You should get a smoking hole.

Ha! nice..


Anywho I am a smoker, and both of my partners are smokers. Everyone who is working on our place right now are smokers There is no-one there to give another perspective.
My big worry is that we have always talked about making this place "upscale"... to bring in the customers who are on our side of the river who have no other place like ours to go. All 3 of us see it this way. There are plenty of dive bars around, we need to set our place apart. If we do this successfully, we corner the market in our area.

I am sure that if we allow smoking, we will cut off LOTS of potential customers, and the majority will be of the demo that we are trying to target. We also cut off all families.

My mind is made up for what is best for us business-wise, unfortunately I need to convince at least one of my partners to see it the way I see it.

Thanks all for giving me some perspectives. I will update with what we decide.

 

[Skarekrough]

I tend to see this from a different perspective as a gigging musician.

In Boston they banned smoking in bars, pubs and clubs about five years ago. The big selling point of the movement was that the lack of smoking would draw in new customers that would typically stay home because of the smoke. Existing customers could just step outside and thus the venues would be welcoming to all.

It worked, for awhile. The non-smokers were there for a bit, but the staying power just didn't exist. Within six months the numbers were back down to where they were or in some cases, worse than before.

As a gigging musician it was my job to get those that come out to stay out for as long as possible, have a good time and drink. Seeing folks be forced to leave to step outside for a smoke was jarring to see and deal with in some venues and often times when I got REALLY cold folks wouldn't stay for anywhere near as long.

I dealt with it as a professional but the results were obvious; those that came before would do so again, but the odds were that they wouldn't stay as long if having to leave to go for a smoke was inconvenient.

The first night I came home after a gig and didn't wake up having my clothes stink up the house I smiled. Cracking open a guitar case and not being overcome bu the smell was a nice treat.

But inevitably it comes down to business.

If you can make a smoking area accessible and not make smokers feel like social pariahs then I think you can actually have the best of both worlds.

Some venues made out okay. Some went under. It's a fickle scene. As a musician were fighting to keep venues open and accessible. Were no longer the only game in town; were up against DJ's, karaoke, trivia nights, rock band, whatever's out there. I've spent alot of time watching bands not get that they can't be dragging 100 watt Marshall heads into a little tiny bar and expect to get asked back. I've seen venues get fed up with that and just can having bands altogether. It's a different world now.

I was a smoker for ten years. Not a day goes by that I don't miss having a cigarette. But I also realize the risks involved and made the choice to quit. It was my decision for myself, not anyone else.

Best of luck with it.

 

[rexbanner]

I didn't read much of this thread but IMO your poll needs more choices.

I'm an ex-smoker but I don't care about hanging out a place that allows it. The only thing that sucks is your clothes smell like smoke, but you can wash your clothes, no big deal.

That being said, I don't have much of a strong opinion for allowing it either. It also kinda sucks for the staff.

 

[cheier]

From a personal perspective, I have limited issues with heading into a pub that allowed smoking. I really don't like it, but I usually don't let it get to me when I'm there to enjoy a social experience with friends and enjoy some good beer. Now that smoking is banned in pubs here, I do actually enjoy it more. Not only that, but I have no problems bringing SWMBO along as well. She would not go anywhere that allowed smoking because she simply can't stand the smell at all. We've actually gone on dates to pubs since. Regardless of how much she likes the pub experience and good beers, smoking will still be a determining factor as to whether we are there or not.

When we were in Tokyo, we were walking around looking for a bite to eat, and came across an English pub. We went in and left because of the smoke in there. I almost felt kind of bad as one of the wait staff came out to let us know seating was available, but had to politely decline citing, in the best sign language possible due to my lack of Japanese, that we were leaving because of the smoking.

The pub was pretty full, but then again, smoking is the norm in Japan. We were at a dessert restaurant and they had smoking and non smoking sections in there. Here in Alberta, I'd have to say that I have enjoyed many different pubs since the smoking ban was put in place, and it has been great getting SWMBO out once in a while too.

 

[Drinks3point2]

As a former tobacco lover I sympathize with those who can still enjoy their delicious lung snacks. I was a fiend, so it didn't work for me... had to quit. Since then they have banned smoking in clubs in Utah. I don't miss it a bit. Smoking does help with loitering but I think you guys have an opportunity to offer more than a place to sit, swill, and smoke. I agree with several others that if you have the means to offer the smokers a place to get their fix than you get their money too. I'm for no smoking indoors ultimately though because second hand smoke means that I have to smoke too just to hang out where the smokers go. Good luck with your business.

 

[Mongrel]

I have the right to enjoy a meal where I can smell the food, not the cigarette smoke from the table next door. Smoking invades my personal space, therefore you violate my rights when you light up in a restaurant when seated next to me.

People today have no respect for others, unless the other just got through kicking their a$$.

Unfortunate!

I've spent a lot of time in South America, Bolivia in particular. One night I went out to a fantastic Italian restaurant, which also happened to be the cigar club of La Paz. One night after a spectacular meal, the owner of the establishment, who had just returned from Cuba, brought me a selection of his newest acquisitions. Within about a minute of lighting one of the finest cigars, a couple of US embassy wives sat down at the table next to mine, and started stating how I should put it out. I restrained myself, and stayed polite, but informed them that they would be buying me a fresh cigar since they expected me put mine out. That didn't go over too well. At the end of it, I had to ask them if they really thought it was reasonable to go to a cigar club and expect a smoke free environment.

If you enter a pub/restaurant/cigar club/dive that allows smoking, the smoker is not invading your personal space. You chose to enter the establishment. I no longer smoke, and Oregon no longer allows it, but I still miss the atmosphere of a smokey bar. Non/ex-smokers who want their favorite bar to go smoke free will find that it's no longer the same bar when that rule goes into effect.

As for the OP, you and your partners have to decide what you want. At least the choice is yours.

 

[Veinman]

Ultimately as a business I think it has to come down to what will be best for your business and make you the most money.
Both sides have been extensively debated in this thread with both sides claiming their option will help your business, I did a little searching to see if any non-biased (ideally economically focused) research had be done to see what the economic effects were in locations where bans had been put into place

http://qctimes.com/news/local/article_0f72c702-65f1-11de-bff3-001cc4c002e0.htmlthis one says a smoking bans in Iowa hurt bars, stating alchohol sales at stores went up while bar booze sales went down.

http://www.hotel-online.com/News/PR2003_1st/Feb03_BanAffect.html this one says the exact opposite that a ban was great in El Paso, one owner who said he was opposed to the ban says it was great for business.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/04/economic-impact-bars-restaurants-opinions-contributors-smoking-ban.html Finally this article appeared in Forbes and is very indepth in theory, it points to flaws in numbers of studies done but has no raw emperical data to back it up on it's own which is a flaw in itself.

The fact that both sides have done studies to prove their side is right leads me to believe that like most laws smoking bans are good for some businesses and bad for others. It likely has to do with clientele, the specific business, the area, competition and a million other things. I'd suggest opening with one option and keeping a close eye on your clientele talk to them and ask them what they would prefer because ultimately they are the only ones that matter to your business

 

[Brewer_Bob]

I've spent a lot of time in South America, Bolivia in particular. One night I went out to a fantastic Italian restaurant, which also happened to be the cigar club of La Paz. One night after a spectacular meal, the owner of the establishment, who had just returned from Cuba, brought me a selection of his newest acquisitions. Within about a minute of lighting one of the finest cigars, a couple of US embassy wives sat down at the table next to mine, and started stating how I should put it out. I restrained myself, and stayed polite, but informed them that they would be buying me a fresh cigar since they expected me put mine out. That didn't go over too well. At the end of it, I had to ask them if they really thought it was reasonable to go to a cigar club and expect a smoke free environment.

If you enter a pub/restaurant/cigar club/dive that allows smoking, the smoker is not invading your personal space. You chose to enter the establishment. I no longer smoke, and Oregon no longer allows it, but I still miss the atmosphere of a smokey bar. Non/ex-smokers who want their favorite bar to go smoke free will find that it's no longer the same bar when that rule goes into effect.

As for the OP, you and your partners have to decide what you want. At least the choice is yours.

And to tie this post into the OP even more, I think it illustrates how important it is to make it clear if it is a smoking or non-smoking bar, regardless of which way you and your partners decide to go. If you make it a smoking establishment make it abundantly and unapologetically clear, signs at the entrance and inside, that it is a smoking establishment. Perhaps include it in your advertisements so you attract smokers.

The same goes for non-smoking. Make it abundantly clear to everyone before they enter that it is non-smoking. By doing this you will greatly decrease the odds that you will tick off your customers. There will still be the rare people, like those embassy wives, who believe everyone should tailor their businesses to their own standards. But you aren’t catering to them anyway. The audacity of asking someone to put out a cigar in a cigar bar actually makes me wonder if they knew it was a cigar bar. Once again, make it clear to the customers before they even enter.

On a side note, as an occasional cigar smoker I am very self conscious about where I smoke my cigars. Even in bars that usually allow smoking, I realize cigar smoke can me much more obtrusive than cigarette smoke. In such bars I always ask the people around me if it is ok if I smoke a cigar. No one has ever told be no and I usually get a “thanks for asking”. The only place I don’t ask is an actual cigar bar.

 

[specialkaye]

They won't technically be homebrews... since I'll be brewing in the pub on a system built just for it. They will of course be the recipes and techniques and even brewhouse designs that I've worked with as a homebrewer so far.
Ha! nice..
Anywho I am a smoker, and both of my partners are smokers. Everyone who is working on our place right now are smokers There is no-one there to give another perspective.
My big worry is that we have always talked about making this place "upscale"... to bring in the customers who are on our side of the river who have no other place like ours to go. All 3 of us see it this way. There are plenty of dive bars around, we need to set our place apart. If we do this successfully, we corner the market in our area.

I am sure that if we allow smoking, we will cut off LOTS of potential customers, and the majority will be of the demo that we are trying to target. We also cut off all families.

My mind is made up for what is best for us business-wise, unfortunately I need to convince at least one of my partners to see it the way I see it.

Thanks all for giving me some perspectives. I will update with what we decide.

Well, good luck with this venture. And, I'd probably still stop in, despite not voting, just to see what you've got going. How about some pictures? Again, good luck.

 

[superjunior]

I voted yes just because I'm a smoker and I hate freezing my tail off to get my fix. Other than bad weather though, I have no problem with going outside for a smoke and actually like a smoke free bar. My wife wouldn't last 5 minutes in a smokey bar with her asthma. I don't smoke in the house either other than my little basement office with the door shut and the window open. I think if the op just put a patio umbrella and a little outdoor heater out back than everyone wins.

 

[Budzu]

Well, good luck with this venture. And, I'd probably still stop in, despite not voting, just to see what you've got going. How about some pictures? Again, good luck.

Thanks! Here's some recent progress shots:
The main dining room with family crests:

The brewery/fermentation room. It will be an electric 2 bbl brewery, with 6 conical 2 bbl fermenters:

The walk-in out back. The draft system will be long-drawn with glycol:

 

[Budzu]

Edit: thx mods!

 

[Paramecium]

You'll lose more customers by allowing smoking where food is concerned than you would not allowing it.

 

[logan3825]

In general I think people acclimate to their area and being outside shouldn't really affect people much. Unless you have some extreme weather that is. I doubt cold will be much of an issue in Tennessee. My guess is that the weather problem would be more from heat. Thirsty people doesn't sound like something that would upset you to much.

 

[MonkeyWrench]

Here in WA, smoking in any public place is illegal. Back when it was legal, in this area of about 25000 people, we had a single bar open up that was non-smoking (sometime around 2001). It was an immediate success in an area that has a lot of packed bars and taverns that were very smokey. The smokers said it wouldn't last. This area is industrious with a lot of rednecks and good-ol-boys.

In 2006 when the no-smoking law passed, it offered non-smokers more options of places to frequent. I think they lost a little business, but they had build a solid clientele by that point that liked the atmosphere and food.

 

[BigJerk]

I say no, I used to not care, and even thought people should have the right to smoke indoors when the law was being passed here, ever since then though I've noticed that whenever I go out of state to a place that does allow smoking I don't like it, and will find a different place to go, regardless of beer choice. I'd rather have a BMC than deal with a smoky bar, and that's really saying something! With all your options for a patio, I say make a smoking area outside. when you can afford to make it nicer, the smokers won't take issue with it being closed for a couple weeks while you build them a nice place to be.

 

[dobeluvr]

It depends, I don't smoke and it usually dont bother me, but I have been in places where smoke was lingering in the air and left. So i guess it depends on the hvac system is adequate.

 

[Revvy]

My big worry is that we have always talked about making this place "upscale"... to bring in the customers who are on our side of the river who have no other place like ours to go. All 3 of us see it this way.

Like I mentioned earlier, most of the GABF winning brewpubs in Michigan were all nonsmoking from the get go, even before the smoking ban went into effect earlier this year. Some like Dragonmead have been packed for over a decade.

 

[jfr1111]

The non-smoking ban was enforced in 2006 in Quebec. A lot of the bars and restaurants complained that they would be forced to close. Guess what ? They were right. A lot of them were forced to close because bars and restaurants close all the damn time, except for the ones that already served great food and drink at great prices in a great atmosphere. When the ability to smoke inside was what kept them open, they were already halfway in the tomb to begin with.

This question isn't about personal freedom or rights. It's about business. In your case, you have the choice to either allow it or not because of the law. I would explore all my options if I were you. The choice isn't a moral one and depends on a lot of factors. Do you intend to open in an area where smoking is prevalent ? In Quebec City, smokers are somewhat of a rarity, while in my neck of the woods, I'd say 50% of the bargoing population still smokes. Does your competition allow smoking ? What clientele are you catering to ? Can you live with the costs associated with arranging an area where smokers can go to have their fix, either inside or outside ? We used to have restaurants with completly separate dining rooms. Different AC and staff with heavy glass doors seperating the two. Getting employees to work in a smoky environment can also be tough and shouldn't be overlooked: you might even pay more in health insurance if you allow smoking indoors.

In my mind, brewpubs that allow smoking are a failed proposition, especially if you intend to cater to a clientele that is knowledgeable about beer and food. You also have to take into consideration the possible enforcement of a ban in the future. If you open and don't allow smoking from the get go, you are less likely to have ticked off customers or suffer a backlash if a smoking-ban is passed afterward.

 

[Zamial]

I read the OP and a few posts. IMO...

1. Why allow something to ruin the "beer experience"? The smells/aromas?

2. This gives you a great opportunity to have a beer garden.

 

[Thakog]

As a non-smoker, smoking never kept me from going to a place to try their beer or hang out with friends. It would and did keep me from wanting to go back.

Good luck convincing one of your partners to go smoke free. If you want it somewhat upscale though, I'd definitely go smoke free.

Or for a slightly tongue in cheek option, swing for the fences with the smoking theme, and just make smoky beers. Rauchbier, Graztbier (research this one- it's sort of extinct), smoked porter, maybe a scottish with some peat notes, etc.

 

[heywolfie1015]

How cold does it get where you live? A quick Google search indicates you guys average around 40 in wintertime? If so, why not try to set up a heated smoking patio? (Just a few industrial-quality space heaters should do the trick. I live in California, where no smoking is allowed in public establishments, and I can honestly say I love it. I moved from here to Michigan for a while a few years back (before the smoking ban in that state) and really disliked the smoky bars while there. If the point is to create an optimal environment for beer and food, smoking really doesn't have a place there. Still, an accommodation for smokers is a good idea, especially if you can make it a pleasant experience. (Example: I went to a rum bar here in L.A. that has a smoking patio out back where they sell cigars to pair with the rum. I don't smoke that often, but hightailed it out there for the experience.)

 

[BeerWars]

All the bars here are smoke-free. I really like not smelling like an ash tray when I leave.

If you are going to go smoking - get some serious air filters / ionizers. There was a bar at school that was smoking. It was a pretty cramped bar that was full of nasty smoke - then they had these massive 6'x6' ionizers installed on the ceiling. Unless you were literally next to someone that was smoking you couldn't tell it was a smoking bar. No smoke in the air. And your clothes didn't stink when you left.

Personally, I would shy away from a smoking bar even-though I enjoy the occasional cigarette while drinking.

Disclaimer: I never go to bars outside of eating dinner.

 

[Ricand]

I smoked for years and loved it when the no smoking sign went off on a plane. You could hear the click of 50 lighters all at once. We all had our smokes and lighters in hand. Now I hate to visit states that allow public smoking.

Our city recently banned smoking in our town park, with an exception for cannabis of course. Smoking bans are the trend of the future, it will be easier for you to be on the front of the wave. Best of luck with your new pub. Like most here, I am jealous that you are doing what I dream about.

 

[jezter6]

I'll be the only one that says this. I smoke. I still go out to bars, but I go out only about 25% as often as I did before the smoking ban.

You'll gain some of the non-smokers who were "very concerned" about smoke, and you'll lose some of the smokers who (like me) are also very concerned about our smoking.

The rest probably stay the same.

If you had the "choice" and decided to go no smoking, I'd never visit your establishment. Then again, there are people like that on the other side of the argument too. Just gotta decide from a business perspective how many more of one side there is and weigh that money.

 

[JNye]

No. Illinois banned while I still smoked. It was a heated debate with tons of smokers/restruantuers crying about it. I wasn't happy about it either. Its great tgo go to a place that is not a smoky mess. People can and do go outside. They smoke less. Its fine. I live close to Indiana and I very regularly don't go out with frineds because they like to go to the Indiana bars because they can smoke in them...I hate those smoky places. It won't be long before its banned everywhere anyways, stay ahead of the game.

 

[Revvy]

One thing to consider. If your city/state is contemplating going smoke free in the near future- When Micigan went smoke free this summer, many of the places that allowed smoking then dropped a lot of money to refurbish their places to get rid of the built up odor and stains, some even had to replace their air handlers. Some replaced their booths or cloth seats aince they absorbed odors so well. Many just painted. But even a paint job costs timme and money.

A few of those places made a point of stressing their rennovations in their marketing/advertising.

None of the already smoke free places had to do something like that when it happened. They just went on with business as usual.

 

[Pumbaa]

I guess it all depends if you want to force a customer who is already in your establishment spending money to leave it to smoke -OR- if you want to potentially not have a customer enter it because someone is smoking.

Personally I'd go with a bird in the hand and set up the best ventilation system I could afford. In Wisconsin we just went smoke free in all public buildings. After 4 months bars are reporting a loss of business of up to 25% ( http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/article_d31bc052-f51d-11df-b74b-001cc4c002e0.html ) . . . and the cold weather hasnt really even set in yet.

 

[Johnny_Crunch]

If you want some babes that put out to show up I would recommend you allow smoking.

If she smokes, she pokes!

Cheers!

 

[vandeg]

Another point to ponder is look at the other bars in town, maybe talk to some people at said bar about smoking. It isn't a heated debate unless someone makes it, so best to be light hearted about it and get some opinions.

If for example all places allow smoke, then make it smokeless, if all are smoke free then possibly think of allowing a outdoor lounge area where smoking would be allowed. If you do have smoking outdoors, make sure you have a door that can't be propped open and if possible make the patio downwind of the building's entrance.

 

[RogerMcAllen]

I voted no.

If I know anything about running a small brewpub/restaurant, the restaurant is where the real money comes from while the beer is a fun side project.

I don't think anyone would argue that a smoking restaurant is a good idea.

Since I like math:

6 fermenters x 2bbl x 1 batch/month/fermenter x 12 months/year = 40,320 pints a year
@ $4 a pint that's only $161,280 a year

If you have 4 staff x 8 hours/day x 365 days/year x $10/hr = $116,800 year

I'm betting that extra $44,000 doesn't even cover rent/utilities

 

[millsware]

I agree that it depends on your target demographic. It sounds like you are targeting a slightly higher-end kind of crowd, not the party scene, so I think that you would get more business from non-smoking. I also think a cheap outdoor patio with a few benches and a counter to set your drinks would work to maximize the attendance.

 

[logan3825]

Personally I'd go with a bird in the hand and set up the best ventilation system I could afford. In Wisconsin we just went smoke free in all public buildings. After 4 months bars are reporting a loss of business of up to 25% ( http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/article_d31bc052-f51d-11df-b74b-001cc4c002e0.html ) . . . and the cold weather hasnt really even set in yet.

The article also states places that serve food have seen an increase. Maybe the decrease in profits is due to the smoking ban, maybe it is due to the economy not picking up yet.

 

[jonp9576]

go smoke free. its happening everywhere any way. i smoked for 10 years. when the smoking ban came around here, i found my hangover wasnt as bad since the bar wasnt full of smoke. we went outside to smoke.

one thing we did look for was bars with cool outside areas where we could smoke.

 

[Pumbaa]

The article also states places that serve food have seen an increase.

I didnt see the restaurant side of his business in his post, my bad

Maybe the decrease in profits is due to the smoking ban, maybe it is due to the economy not picking up yet.

Maybe, but with the amount of people I see standing outside of taverns in Milwaukee I doubt it . . . but ya know how stuff is around here, we are a big drinking/smoking culture here

 

[logan3825]

Maybe, but with the amount of people I see standing outside of taverns in Milwaukee I doubt it . . . but ya know how stuff is around here, we are a big drinking/smoking culture here

I would have to agree there is some validity to losing some business because of people to smoke and not going back in. I know when I used to go out(in LaCrosse coincidentally) with my friends we would only go to 2-3 bars because it was difficult to get everybody up and moving.

My wife, a part time smoker, said that if you give smokers a sheltered place to smoke they would probably stick around. Probably a roofed area without walls. I have to agree with most other people, your state will probably have a smoking ban at some point. Better to be ahead of the curve. Not sure if you are familiar with Oshkosh bars but many of them put in outside areas in the last couple years.

 

[Hartski]

I'm in the vast minority here, but I miss smoking in bars terribly. In the 2 years since Iowa went smoke free, I've pretty much stopped going out, because so many other people stopped going out, except on really nice days where it's enjoyable to smoke outside the bar. Of course, our smoking ban went a step further and said you can't have seating outside in a smoking area.

So I've driven to Wisconsin a few times in the past couple years just to smoke in a bar. Now that it's banned there, I'll have to make the trek to Missouri, Nebraska, or Minnesota to enjoy an indoor smoke with my beer.