all grain with distilled water flavor

[zodiak3000]

was using RO for awhile, but i really cant trust the water machine after reading about peoples results after sending off samples to ward labs. did a batch with distilled with added calcium chloride and gypsum calculated each to about 100 ppm. also added about 2% acidulated malt for ph via brewers friend calculator. the beer is ok, but im picking up a slightly harsh flavor. i dont think it could be tannins after adjusting ph and water profile. really tough to describe as its not really a classic "off flavor". any ideas what this may be? huge yeast starter, temp controlled.

 

[peterj]

Maybe you don't like 100 ppm of chloride and sulfate? Have you put that much in your beer before? What kind of beer is it?

 

[zodiak3000]

IPA/IIPA. For a balanced profile i thought 80-100 of each was accurate. The flavor just seems harsh, no real other way to describe it...

 

[peterj]

IPA/IIPA. For a balanced profile i thought 80-100 of each was accurate. The flavor just seems harsh, no real other way to describe it...

I think it's kind of subjective and depends on your personal tastes. Some people don't like the effect of sulfate on their beers, some people will load it up to 300+ ppm. I guess it could also be a pH issue. Did you take an actual pH reading or go by the calculator prediction? Acidulated malt can vary in the amount of actual acid content.

It could also just be a certain hop that you might not like. Did you use anything you've never used before? I've heard people say that some hops can provide a harsher bittering than others. Chinook is one that I hear is harsh though I've never really noticed it myself.

 

[Yooper]

100 ppm each would give a harsh mine rally flavor in my opinion. In general when you go over 100 ppm of sulfate try to keep the chloride about 50 ppm to avoid this.

I'm brewing a hoppy Amber at this moment. I have 107 ppm sulfate and 20 ppm chloride. That gives me the best flavor for this particular beer

For me, and many other people less is more really does apply. For many beers I never go over 70 ppm of either chloride or sulfate.

 

[Yooper]

Stupid iPhone auto corrected "minerally" to something that I don't even understand. Sorry about that!

 

[Upthewazzu]

I used to top off my partial boil extract brews with distilled water and never liked the flavor. It wasn't until I started doing full boils (thus no need for top off water) that I realized the distilled water was what was causing the bad flavors.

 

[unionrdr]

Distilled water has nothing in it from being distilled. So how can it give off flavors? Seems to me distilled water wouldn't be masking any off flavors?...

 

[zodiak3000]

just got done brewing. a few things i want to address while its fresh-
missed my OG by a lot. this happened last time I used distilled as well. like said, mineral content was about 80 ppm each of calcium chloride and calcium sulfate. this essentially is the balanced profile 1 from brewers friend, so im not sure why it would be a problem for conversion or have a harsh flavor. im using about 2% acidulated malt. again, calculating anticipated PH from brewers friend. any ideas on the missed OG (about 10%) and harsh flavor? i guess it could possibly be tannins ( i need a ph meter), but i had less of this flavor using RO water without any acid added so i dont know.

 

[Yooper]

just got done brewing. a few things i want to address while its fresh-
missed my OG by a lot. this happened last time I used distilled as well. like said, mineral content was about 80 ppm each of calcium chloride and calcium sulfate. this essentially is the balanced profile 1 from brewers friend, so im not sure why it would be a problem for conversion or have a harsh flavor. im using about 2% acidulated malt. again, calculating anticipated PH from brewers friend. any ideas on the missed OG (about 10%) and harsh flavor? i guess it could possibly be tannins ( i need a ph meter), but i had less of this flavor using RO water without any acid added so i dont know.

I am familiar with Brewer's Friend. The pH for me has been very close when using it.

Distilled and RO water are so close as to be indistinguishable from each other in brewing, so that is not the issue.

I'm wondering about the crush you have, as well as the harsh flavor you report. That seems weird, with distilled water. The flavor should be soft, with distilled water. Maybe it's too much in additions?

 

[Glynn]

what was the projected ph from brewers friend

 

[zodiak3000]

the crush seems like it could be better. it doesnt seem crushed enough, so less chance of tannin extraction. im not sure what else i can do to improve. the projected ph is 5.4.

 

[Glynn]

I use the advanced water calc on BF and it seems spot on for me. My mash eff is at 80%. I set my crush gap with a credit card. i use what some might think as a lot of salts but it works for my taste. ca 110 mg 18 na 20 cl 45 so4 300 I also target a 5.3 mash ph

 

[grathan]

If you had to guess how many tsp 100ppm gypsum was in your batch, what would your guess be?

Did you add all your additions directly to the mash?

I know you didnt mention it, but you didnt add any magnesium sulfate did you?




Perhaps your thermometer is off and needs calibration... That could explain lower efficiency and in the case of a mash out tannins extraction.

 

[zodiak3000]

If you had to guess how many tsp 100ppm gypsum was in your batch, what would your guess be?

Did you add all your additions directly to the mash?

I know you didnt mention it, but you didnt add any magnesium sulfate did you?




Perhaps your thermometer is off and needs calibration... That could explain lower efficiency and in the case of a mash out tannins extraction.

minerals are weighed out in grams by a scale. i only add calcium chloride and calcium sulfate. i calculate both the strike and sparge water to 80-100 ppm. should i not be adding minerals to my sparge water?

 

[grathan]

minerals are weighed out in grams by a scale. i only add calcium chloride and calcium sulfate. i calculate both the strike and sparge water to 80-100 ppm. should i not be adding minerals to my sparge water?

Sparge water is fine. I generally split calcium between mash and boil. So how many grams of calcium sulfate did you use then?

 

[Glynn]

If you had to guess how many tsp 100ppm gypsum was in your batch, what would your guess be?

Did you add all your additions directly to the mash?

I know you didnt mention it, but you didnt add any magnesium sulfate did you?




Perhaps your thermometer is off and needs calibration... That could explain lower efficiency and in the case of a mash out tannins extraction.

It varies from recipe to recipe. my goal is to hit my ph first then the rest of the gyp goes into the boil kettle. In my last dipa it came out to 4 tsp of gyp total (2.2 mash 1.8 kettle) all the rest went into the mash. The only salts i use are gyp, Epsom, chloride and kosher salt. Imo when using distilled/ro water there is no need to add salts to the sparge water. the ph of dist/ro waters are low enough that its not necessary but theres no reason you cant. My salts tend to follow a pattern 2g chloride 1 g salt then a 2 to 1 ratio of gyp to epsom salt. i add enough epsom to hit my mg mark then use gyp. Its some thing you have to play with my number are extremely hoppy beers and not ment for every style

 

[zodiak3000]

Sparge water is fine. I generally split calcium between mash and boil. So how many grams of calcium sulfate did you use then?

i calculate everything with brewers friend. i use a scale. 80 ppm each of calcium, sulfate, and chloride goes into the strike and sparge water. essentially a balanced profile. im thinking of maybe cutting back the chloride to under 50 ppm...

 

[Yooper]

i calculate everything with brewers friend. i use a scale. 80 ppm each of calcium, sulfate, and chloride goes into the strike and sparge water. essentially a balanced profile. im thinking of maybe cutting back the chloride to under 50 ppm...

Yes, do that for hoppy beers.

For malty beers, do the reverse, except you don't need any sulfate at all. 80 ppm is ok for calcium, but more than needed, so don't feel bad about cutting each of those to 50 ppm or even less for a balanced beer.

 

[zodiak3000]

Yes, do that for hoppy beers.

For malty beers, do the reverse, except you don't need any sulfate at all. 80 ppm is ok for calcium, but more than needed, so don't feel bad about cutting each of those to 50 ppm or even less for a balanced beer.

cool thanks. do you think with what i have going (80 ppm of each) that it could have a negative impact on flavor? the more i read the more i think chloride should be under 50 ppm for my hoppy beers. i wonder since its close to 100 ppm if its giving an unwanted flavor perception.

 

[Yooper]

cool thanks. do you think with what i have going (80 ppm of each) that it could have a negative impact on flavor? the more i read the more i think chloride should be under 50 ppm for my hoppy beers. i wonder since its close to 100 ppm if its giving an unwanted flavor perception.

Yes, too much will give a "minerally" flavor to the beer. I'd keep it lower if I was making a hoppy beer.

 

[pennyloaf]

minerals are weighed out in grams by a scale. i only add calcium chloride and calcium sulfate. i calculate both the strike and sparge water to 80-100 ppm. should i not be adding minerals to my sparge water?

For my clarification does this mean you made your mash and sparge water to 80-100 ppm each and then collected (lets say) 7.5 gal in your boil kettle. Boiled it down and ended up with 5 gal of 120-150ppm?

Or did you add less mineral to your mash/sparge on the assumption you pour in 8.5 gal of 66 ppm to collect 7.5 gal of 66 ppm, to boil down to 5 gal of 100 ppm?

 

[peterj]

For my clarification does this mean you made your mash and sparge water to 80-100 ppm each and then collected (lets say) 7.5 gal in your boil kettle. Boiled it down and ended up with 5 gal of 120-150ppm?

Or did you add less mineral to your mash/sparge on the assumption you pour in 8.5 gal of 66 ppm to collect 7.5 gal of 66 ppm, to boil down to 5 gal of 100 ppm?

I would assume it's the first option you said. When people talk about water chemistry they are usually talking about the mineral concentrations of the mash and sparge water before boiling. I don't think anyone uses post boil concentrations, and I don't know of any water chemistry calculator that will give you post boil concentrations either.

 

[zodiak3000]

yes, pre-boil calculations. i thought this was correct to treat ALL the water i use, am i wrong? im also confused on how "brewers friend" says essentially 80 ppm of each is for a "balanced profile". sure, maybe not the best profile for a hoppy beer, but can it really give you unpleasant flavors? like if i was going to brew a hefeweizen (which to my palate is not too hoppy or malty) wouldnt a balanced profile be sufficient? or would it still be too minerally?

 

[Yooper]

yes, pre-boil calculations. i thought this was correct to treat ALL the water i use, am i wrong? im also confused on how "brewers friend" says essentially 80 ppm of each is for a "balanced profile". sure, maybe not the best profile for a hoppy beer, but can it really give you unpleasant flavors? like if i was going to brew a hefeweizen (which to my palate is not too hoppy or malty) wouldnt a balanced profile be sufficient? or would it still be too minerally?

I don't have an answer for that, except to say I looked at "balanced profile II" and that one is a disaster!

I would stay away from those profiles, and take a look at some generic "good beer" profiles, or refer to the primer that is in the Brew Science forum.

Usually, "less is more" applies. You may find that a low sulfate level in a hoppy beer makes the beer a bit boring, but that is the worse than can happen. Overmineralizing is far worse.

 

[zodiak3000]

I don't have an answer for that, except to say I looked at "balanced profile II" and that one is a disaster!

I would stay away from those profiles, and take a look at some generic "good beer" profiles, or refer to the primer that is in the Brew Science forum.

Usually, "less is more" applies. You may find that a low sulfate level in a hoppy beer makes the beer a bit boring, but that is the worse than can happen. Overmineralizing is far worse.

thanks for the response. i believe you are right, i really think my last beer has that mineral character at 100 ppm each. def gonna drop the chloride next time in my IPA and keep everything else on the low side to see what i get. i believe the distilled water is fine, along with the 2% acid malt to keep my ph in check via brewers friend. the harsh flavor i describe i think is a combo of things- i missed my OG from a bad crush, this resulted in lower ABV and higher IBU...so much more bitter than expected. also used nelson/galaxy hops. love these hops but they do have a different hop flavor quality. throw is the 100 ppm of minerals with these other flavors and things just dont seem to "click" for my palate. not a bad beer, just not exactly what i was shooting for.