All Grain brewing followed to T...what happened?

[Hops-and-Dreams]

Hello Everyone...

I am new to HomeBrewTalk.com and this is my first post so please forgive me if this topic has already been discussed. In fact, if it has can someone please direct me to that thread?

Ok...a buddy and I started brewing recently and have made a total of 5 - 5 gallon batches. Every time something just doesn't seem right, so we review the process, find where we messed up, make the correction on the next batch.

This time we brewed a Guiness clone. We followed every step to the the very letter. Our mash temp was around 160 for the entire hour, but when we did the iodine tincture test there was still starch present. So we continued to mash, monitor temp, and iodine test every 20 minutes. After about an hour we felt the iodine was staying red (kind of hard to tell because of the dark nature of Guiness). So we moved on to vorlaufing then sparging. We took our time with the sparge (almost an hour) then put the wort on the stove. We boiled for and hour adding our hops at the appropriate time then transferred to stage 1 fermentation vessel. We added our yeast (smack pack that was started for 4 hours) then placed the vessel in the basement.

We are now four days later and I have not seen one bit of action on the airlock. So...this tells me that the sugars are not converting to alcohol. So then I question if the starches turned to sugar in the first place.

Now you have my long winded story...my questions are...WTF? seriously, what went wrong? All temps and times were spot on. Why/how did my starches not convert to sugars? I have a Belles Two Hearted clone that I want to make soon, but I want to know what I'm doing wrong before I blow through some more grains (and $$$).

Thoughts? Hints? Directions? Beer?

Hops-and-Dreams

 

[CountryGravy]

The first thing you will hear from most people is that airlock activity is not the way to decide if fermentation is happening.

Have you pull a sample and tested it? Are you sure there are no air leaks? Are you using a carboy or bucket? Is there a chance it was a quick fermentation that happened while you weren't monitorying, and now it is so slow that you don't see activity?

Any of those are possibilities.

Hope you figure it out!

 

[RM-MN]

Hydrometer is the way to tell if your beer fermented. It may have happened quickly and you missed it but if the hydrometer reading is lower now that when you put the wort and yeast together, fermentation happened.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

ALso why 160? That seems incredibly high for a mash, granted ive never done a Guiness but it seems like that would create a ton of unfermentables....

 

[Facinerous]

I would reason to believe that you did indeed convert your starches. The mash temperature does play a big role in that conversion, and a temperature of 160 is getting up on the high side but doesn't sound totally unreasonable to me.

CountryGravy's response is pretty spot on. You may have air leaks in your conical where you just aren't seeing activity in the airlock. If its in a bucket you can't see whats going on inside, but I can say in all probability your yeast are busy doing their job.

 

[Trox]

+1 to everyone saying the airlock is no indicator for fermentation.

What was your OG? Also did you take a pre-boil SG reading? If so what was that?

I would also wait about 2 weeks and then take an FG reading to see if you are getting close to finish.

 

[surffisher2a]

What is the temp of your basement?

 

[Hops-and-Dreams]

Holy Cow!! You all are awesome!! Thank you for your insight. Now...to address the questions...basement temp is in the mid-60's.

Fuzzze Wuzze...Mash temp at 160 because the recipe called for 156 (I figured it would lose some heat but my cooler mash tun did a spectacular job at maintaining temp). What is the norm?

Country Gravy...I am using a bucket for the first stage this time. Why didn't I choose the carboy? No reason...just went with the bucket. I do not think there is a leak anywhere. The lid is on tight, when I press down on the lid the airlock does its thing. Always a chance it did a quick ferment, but I checked the vessel less than 24 hours after I pitched the yeast. Then in the morning and evening every night since.

Trox, recipe called for pre-boil gravity of 1.041...I may have (ok I did) forget to take gravity reading at this point. I did a post boil gravity check and it read 1.034. So what does that mean? How different would a pre-boil and post boil be?

To all...so I should cool my jets and let it do its thing? Transfer to secondary vessel for clarity is this coming weekend. Any signs to look for? Should I take a gravity reading then or wait til my final gravity at bottling time?

Again, thank you all for your insight.

Hops-and-Dreams

 

[billl]

" I do not think there is a leak anywhere."

This isn't something you are really going to ever know. It's better just to admit the things you can't know for sure.

"Trox, recipe called for pre-boil gravity of 1.041...I may have (ok I did) forget to take gravity reading at this point. I did a post boil gravity check and it read 1.034. So what does that mean? How different would a pre-boil and post boil be?"

It means you got pretty crappy conversion. Your preboil gravity should be significantly lower than your post boil. It should be in the same ratio as you volumes. ef 7 gallons boiled down to 5 gallons should result in post boil gravity = 7/5* pre boil


"To all...so I should cool my jets and let it do its thing? Transfer to secondary vessel for clarity is this coming weekend. Any signs to look for? Should I take a gravity reading then or wait til my final gravity at bottling time? "

Just leave it alone. THere is zero reason to transfer a stout for "clarity". \

For mash temps, 160 is WAY too high. The enzymes that convert the starch into sugar do not like those temps. If you accidentally overshoot your temps, either add some cool water or ice OR keep the lid off and stir until you bring the temp down. Mashing that hot will likely result is a very sweet beer that doesn't ferment fully. Nothing you can really do about that at this point, but hitting your temps is really something to work on for future batches.

 

[stevefarns]

You didn't mention cooling your wort (or maybe I missed it). If you transfered super hot liquid, then pitched an activated smack pack, the yeast could have been killed as well.
I have first hand experience of non-visable fermentation. Brew still turned out great, but I was freaked that nothimg happened. I to this day do not use a hydrometer consistently, but I will echo what is said above, only way to really tell.

 

[BigFloyd]

I'll confirm what's already been said and add a couple more things.

I'm not sure of the accuracy of your gravity readings. I don't think that it's really possible to have a post-boil gravity after an hour boil that's 7 points lower than your pre-boil grav. Did you let the samples cool before reading them? A 1.041 pre-boil, depending on the volume difference, should result in a post-boil at or slightly above 1.050.

I'd mash this around 152-154*F depending on the character you're seeking. With all of the unfermentable dark grains in a stout, mashing high like you did is going to net you a pretty low ABV beer.

How old was the smack pack? Even if brand new (100 billion cells), without a starter that's an underpitch in a 1.050 ale. If you weren't going to do a starter, it's better to rehydrate and pitch a packet of S-04 dry yeast in a stout.

At this point, get a gravity reading. If you conclude that it's not fermenting, rehydrate and pitch a rescue packet of S-04.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Holy Cow!! You all are awesome!! Thank you for your insight. Now...to address the questions...basement temp is in the mid-60's.

Fuzzze Wuzze...Mash temp at 160 because the recipe called for 156 (I figured it would lose some heat but my cooler mash tun did a spectacular job at maintaining temp). What is the norm?

Country Gravy...I am using a bucket for the first stage this time. Why didn't I choose the carboy? No reason...just went with the bucket. I do not think there is a leak anywhere. The lid is on tight, when I press down on the lid the airlock does its thing. Always a chance it did a quick ferment, but I checked the vessel less than 24 hours after I pitched the yeast. Then in the morning and evening every night since.

Trox, recipe called for pre-boil gravity of 1.041...I may have (ok I did) forget to take gravity reading at this point. I did a post boil gravity check and it read 1.034. So what does that mean? How different would a pre-boil and post boil be?

To all...so I should cool my jets and let it do its thing? Transfer to secondary vessel for clarity is this coming weekend. Any signs to look for? Should I take a gravity reading then or wait til my final gravity at bottling time?

Again, thank you all for your insight.

Hops-and-Dreams

156 is probably the highest i would ever go in a recipe, even then if they asked for 156 i'd probably do 154...what confuses me is Guiness is a Dry stout...to get Dry beers you usually mash low instead of high, to get a ton of fermentable sugar that the yeast can process. By mashing high you get more unfermentable sugar, and thus a sweeter beer at the end...

I would think a Dry stout would mash at the more typical 145-148 you would want for a dry beer...so it makes your entire recipe suspect to me...but again ive never brewed a Guinness...

At this point you'll have a beer and it will probably be tasty, but nothing like a Guiness...

 

[Munchkin]

Im new to mashing myself so I have no useful info there. Im curious as to where you got this recipe? Getting one from an inexperienced or misinformed 'brewer' could result in improper technique.

Another possible issue I can think of is the possibility your thermometer is reading incorrectly. I mention this because i recently found my digital thermometer with a wired probe was reading 7F higher than the actual temperature. If your thermometer was reading low and you were above 160F in your mash, id assume that was drastically affect the mash conversion.

 

[Hello]

Aside from wrong mash temps, I'm certain you under pitched your yeast. Time for a gravity reading.

 

[brewbama]

Sounds like a good learning brew. For a guy who is about to brew his first all grain this weekend, this is good reinforcement for hitting temps and why, taking hydrometer readings and what they mean, taking good notes, pitching yeast starters, and having a rescue plan.


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[JonM]

And hey, keep heart. We've all made less-than-perfect or plain old bad batches while we're learning the ropes. I find that I learn far more from my bad batches than I do from my successes. So if this one doesn't turn out, just learn from this one, and start thinking about that next batch!

 

[Trox]

If your post-boil volume really was 1.034 then chances are very likely it has already fermented out. You should probably calibrate your hydrometer by filling your test tube up with cool tap water, then taking a reading. The hydrometer should be sitting at 1.000 after correcting for temperature; if it isn't then you will need to correct for that also. If it is 10 points or more off I would just buy a new one.

 

[surffisher2a]

OK, you got your post boil hydrometer reading (before pitching yeast). 1.034 which is kinda low for a stout, but you will still get some alcohol from it.

The bigger question right now is what is your current hydrometer reading? If its lower than 1.034 then your beer is fermenting and producing alcohol. You will know when its done fermenting by taking a reading for 2 or 3 days and getting the same result.

I am still questioning that 1.034 for a post boil gravity. Can you confirm you took that reading before you pitched your yeast or was that a couple days after you pitched the yeast?

 

[Hops-and-Dreams]

Hey everyone!!

Just wanted to clarify a few things for a few comments...the recipe called for a pre-boil gravity reading of 1.041. I did NOT take a gravity reading at this time. Only took the post boil gravity. Lesson learned.

The recipe comes from a reputable home brew store. The recipe calls for a mash temp of 154-156...so I thought 160 can't be that much different. Again...lesson learned.

My thermometer and hydrometer are both calibrated and accurate.

Stevefarns - I did cool my wort...just didn't mention that.

My suspicion is that my mash temp was too high and therefore did not convert into usable sugars.

I'm just going to let it be and transfer it to bottles at the appropriate time. In the mean time I will start another batch...this time it will be the Two Hearted clone. I will make sure my mash temp is in the lower 150's and I will take a pre-boil and post boil reading.

I truly appreciate your willingness to share knowledge.

Hops-and-Dreams

 

[thisisbeer]

In this time of talking have you checked to see what your gravity is now? You could have a leak with your bucket. I had one and when I pushed down on the lid the airlock would bubble. Remember its releasing co2 slowly during fermentation. Mashing at 160 will still give you sugar conversion. It just won't have the enzymes to break down the long chain sugars further that yeast cannot ferment. The warmer you mash the more residual sweetness left after fermentation. Take a gravity reading and see where the beer is now.

 

[surffisher2a]

Hey everyone!!

Just wanted to clarify a few things for a few comments...the recipe called for a pre-boil gravity reading of 1.041. I did NOT take a gravity reading at this time. Only took the post boil gravity. Lesson learned.

The recipe comes from a reputable home brew store. The recipe calls for a mash temp of 154-156...so I thought 160 can't be that much different. Again...lesson learned.

My thermometer and hydrometer are both calibrated and accurate.

Stevefarns - I did cool my wort...just didn't mention that.

My suspicion is that my mash temp was too high and therefore did not convert into usable sugars.

I'm just going to let it be and transfer it to bottles at the appropriate time. In the mean time I will start another batch...this time it will be the Two Hearted clone. I will make sure my mash temp is in the lower 150's and I will take a pre-boil and post boil reading.

I truly appreciate your willingness to share knowledge.

Hops-and-Dreams

For fermenting purposes the pre-boil gravity isn't really relevant. Only the Post boil and current gravity measurements will tell you about fermentation.

The pre-boil gravity is used to figure out your efficiency and as a checkpoint in the recipe to make sure you are in the ballpark. So by not taking that reading isn't a big deal at this point.

You really just need to get a current hydrometer reading and see where its at. Then take a reading everyday or so and see if it continues to get lower.

 

[Facinerous]

I am intrigued to see what your current gravity reading is. It has most likely been at least three days since you pitched your yeast, probably approaching a week. So if you are concerned to see if your fermentation is or was active now (or at the one week mark) would be a good time to check your gravity.

A short story. My first all grain batch was a bit of a temperature disaster in my opinion. It was an Citra IPA clone. My mash temperature was way to high though. Well above yours actually. As I recollect it was about 165. I didn't change the temp in the mash though and just let it ride. The final product was pretty darn good. Suffice to say, I was not disappointed. Even at 165 I got plenty of conversion.

I just wanted to throw that out there because to make great beer the mash temperature is important. There is a pretty wide range though, and this one may be a bit sweet to you. I'll bet its gonna be pretty good though.

Once you prove to yourself that fermentation has indeed commenced and completed. I would challenge you to make that same recipe again and try to hit the 154 temp. If you felt bold try to hit 150 to dry it out a bit more. Then see what the difference between the two is. Its easy to read "don't do this/do that" in a book or on HBT, but you have a chance to really taste a difference in what the mash temp can make if you do this. I am more of an experiment and check person. So even if I read "do it this way", when I make a mistake that is otherwise I just let it ride out.

Either way. Good luck dude.

 

[smizak]

My suspicion is that my mash temp was too high and therefore did not convert into usable sugars.

That's what happened.

I recently experimented with a really high mash temp, 157-158 on an oatmeal stout. Finished @ 1.028 from 1.074 using Wyeast 1056 and a lot of it. Usually get >80% attenuation with that yeast got 62% on that batch. Add those extra couple of degrees and I bet you either just made unfermentables or you denatured the enzymes before they could act on the starch.

 

[LovesIPA]

That's what happened.

You can't say you know what happened without a gravity reading.

My guess is that the lid doesn't seal perfectly and fermentation is or has already happened.

If your post-boil gravity was 1.041, that is much too low. You're going to end up with a very low ABV beer, even more so because much of the sugar is unfermentable because of the high mash temps.

Did you correct for temperature when you took that OG reading?

 

[smizak]

You can't say you know what happened without a gravity reading.

I was more referring to the starch tests that came positive after an hour. I can promise you there would be very little viable enzymes left after an hour at 160F. You might have some fermentables, but not much. The beer I referenced had a noticeably less active fermentation than typical.

 

[patthebrewer]

How positive are you about your mash temps...i.e. how controlled were your temps. Are you sure it wasn't higher than you thought?

As has already been mentioned, 160 is a bit high and will yield beer with more body but lower fermentables (read less conversion). Mash temps between 149-152 will yield better results for that style. Sometimes lower and longer (up to 90 minutes) can be better. My own personal irish stout recipe, I mash at 150 for 90 minutes, yielding a good compromise in the amount of body, mouthfeel, and abv

How often did you stir your mash? Several times vigorously, during the course of mashing....is called for.

As far as fermenting temps....I wouldn't worry too much about mid 60's. Remember the temp will be higher inside your fermenter.

Just some things to think about

 

[pablosbrewing]

+1 to everyone saying the airlock is no indicator for fermentation.

What was your OG? Also did you take a pre-boil SG reading? If so what was that?

I would also wait about 2 weeks and then take an FG reading to see if you are getting close to finish.

Also only 4 hours on a smack pack is likely to give you a very slow start. Let it ride.

If you are in a rush you are better off with a quality dry yeast. 11g of dry yeast has ~2X the cells of a fully started Activator.

 

[Facinerous]

Here is a fantastic article on mash temperatures from BYO. It lists out enzyme temperatures and explains what is actually going on well.

Intended for the OP, but also for those who are interested.

 

[Hops-and-Dreams]

Well...I took another gravity reading. It went from a post-boil 1.034 to 1.024 which is going to give me in the realm of 1.35% ABV if calculations are correct. So, I went out and bought another Guiness clone and this time I am going to mash closer to 152-154 for approx 90 minutes. Hopefully this works better. Will definitely post the results. Thanks again for everybody's input.

Hops-and-Dreams

 

[smizak]

Hopefully this works better. Will definitely post the results. Thanks again for everybody's input.

Hops-and-Dreams

Please do. Good luck.

 

[JonM]

And that Two-Hearted clone is awesome. I brewed a variation of it three weeks ago and kegged it yesterday. You'll really like it.

 

[Hops-and-Dreams]

Ok...Saturday I brewed the second Guiness clone and so far I think the results are better. First, the smack pack did its thing for about 8.5 hours. So that is better. Also, I mashed between 156-158 for 90 minutes. I know this is higher than what a lot of you suggested, but it's what the recipe suggested so I tried to follow that. At just over an hour I did an iodine test...NO STARCH!! So that is better than the first go-round. I'm amazed at the difference a few degrees will make. I did mash the entire 90 minutes though.

The only thing I did prematurely is added my hops...the Wort temp was only 188 when I added it in. I hope that doesn't play much with the flavor. Other than that I think I followed the process perfectly. We shall see... by the way...pre-boil gravity was 1.038 (adjusted for temperature), post boil was 1.050. Which is a little higher than the 1.044 stated on the recipe. I put it in the carboy this time so I can see all the action...and there is action!

It is my understanding that this is a better indicator of fermentation than the airlock. Correct?

Questions, comments, concerns?

Thanks everyone!!

Hops-and-Dreams

 

[Darwin18]

First, the smack pack did its thing for about 8.5 hours.

Congrats on the re-brew, but I feel like I should tell you that a smack pack doesn't equal a starter. All the smack pack does is proof the yeast. A starter increases the cell count and ensures that you're pitching enough healthy, hungry, and viable yeast into your wort. I've really seen the quality my beer increase significantly when using starters for liquid yeast and I wouldn't recommend just pitching the smack pack.

 

[Flipadelphia]

I'm not sure why you wanted to transfer this to a secondary for clarity. It's a stout dude.

 

[Hops-and-Dreams]

Wanted to transfer just because of all the sediment in it...that is all.

 

[LovesIPA]

If you are careful about - and good at, it does take practice - racking to the bottling bucket, you will have minimal sediment to worry about.

 

[Hops-and-Dreams]

Ok, bottled the Guniess clone last night. Took a FG reading and it is 1.016. Looking like I will get a 4.5% ABV brew like it's supposed to be. Pretty pumped about that. Took my time with the transfer to the bottling vessel so very little sediment moved with. So I used standard white sugar as my primer, and I used approx 2.75oz for the 5 gallon batch. This was based on a nomograph I got off a home brew site (forgetting which site at this moment). For a stout, are there better options?

Hops-and-Dreams


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