AG brewing taste differences, in general?

[CidahMastah]

I hate to get flamed, buy my experience is/was similar. Some very good beers have been made with extract, but I was able to detect an "extract taste" in all of them, even in some that won ribbons in competitions I judged. They were very good, even excellent, but I noticed. I've had some terrible AG beers, some excellent extract beers and everything in between. But I noticed.

Well yoop,

Apparently we are part of the snobby elitest AG brewers, selling the Emperor's new clothing.

 

[Yooper]

Well yoop,

Apparently we are part of the snobby elitest AG brewers, selling the Emperor's new clothing.

Yeah, I get pretty beat up on the "long primary" thing too.

The mob around here tells me that I"m an idiot for only leaving my beer in the fermenter for 2 weeks, or only for a week or more after FG is reached.

Ah well.

 

[Shooter]

While I can see that some improved technical aspect may be learned at the same time a brewer us going to AG that could make the difference seem greater but I've recently gone back to extract for ever other brew due to time constraints. I do say that there is a difference that I can only describe as AG being "fresher". Even if I use LME that is frequently turned over, it seems to have a molassesey taste. DME on the other hand will produce a respectable house beer. I have brewed the two beers side by side on a blonde and the AG was the hands down winner.

But if it comes down to not having the time to brew of brewing a DME based beer, I'll brew.

I'm on the same page my friend, every two or three batches I do either an extract or a stove top partial mash for time reasons. Everyone, please do not start telling me how doing a partial saves me no time. I do them on the stove, they are a true partial mash/partial boil and I don't have to lug my setup up and down two flights of stairs and clean out a tun every time. Trust me, I easily save 45 minutes to an hour this way with moving my gear, setup, clean up and breakdown. Just have to have the disclaimer, as that's always the knee jerk response to anyone doing a partial to save time.

Anyway, fresh extract is key. My LHBS does a good job of turning over liquid light, but I got some of their liquid wheat the other day and I could tell it was old once I tasted the beer. More and more, I'm looking at DME for my extract needs. If I had room for it, I'd consider buying a whole bag of the stuff, but if that was the case I'd also have room to buy sacks of grain and mill my own. Ah, the joys of townhouse living!

 

[Shooter]

Yeah, I get pretty beat up on the "long primary" thing too.

The mob around here tells me that I"m an idiot for only leaving my beer in the fermenter for 2 weeks, or only for a week or more after FG is reached.

Ah well.

You, sir, are an idiot!!!

 

[Beezy]

Yeah, I get pretty beat up on the "long primary" thing too.

The mob around here tells me that I"m an idiot for only leaving my beer in the fermenter for 2 weeks, or only for a week or more after FG is reached.

Ah well.

Really? I was told by many to leave it 4 weeks in primary. I do 3 until I feel the need to change.

 

[Jubilee]

I spoke with a local brewery owner in the tasting room yesterday. Their old 20 gal setup is on display, and I was asking questions about it. Told her I was about to go AG and she made a reference to light shining down from heaven regarding the differences. So FWIW I'm looking forward to it!

 

[Beezy]

There is a new brewery here that uses extract I have heard. That just seems weird to me to use it commercially.

 

[Bigscience]

There is a new brewery here that uses extract I have heard. That just seems weird to me to use it commercially.

Its funny you say that because I went to a brewery that when I had their sampler I kept telling my wife "man, this tastes like these guys use extract!". Then about 6 months later the Munton's rep came to our club meeting and the topic of commercial use of extract came up. I told him about this place and he confirmed that in fact they do use extract. I do not see how the use of extract is a commercially viable option. Maybe if you can pay a brewer way less or if you are capacity limited.

 

[Beezy]

Its funny you say that because I went to a brewery that when I had their sampler I kept telling my wife "man, this tastes like these guys use extract!". Then about 6 months later the Munton's rep came to our club meeting and the topic of commercial use of extract came up. I told him about this place and he confirmed that in fact they do use extract. I do not see how the use of extract is a commercially viable option. Maybe if you can pay a brewer way less or if you are capacity limited.

I dunno apparently the same brewery does 15 gallon batches. Why even bother going commercial? You can't possibly quit your day job with that capacity. There are a few like that that are commercial hobbyists. They usually make extreme beers that would appeal to .01% of the population. Maybe I can buy their equipment when they go under in a few lol.

 

[ILBMF]

I went all grain a couple of months ago. I have continued to brew mainly my IPA for the most part and in my case...the AG is heads and shoulders above the partial mash (5 lbs grain, 6 lbs Munton's ex light DME) I no longer have that slight weird twang taste, almost metallic taste or something. The beer color is lighter and it just tastes ready sooner.

 

[CidahMastah]

Yeah, I get pretty beat up on the "long primary" thing too.

The mob around here tells me that I"m an idiot for only leaving my beer in the fermenter for 2 weeks, or only for a week or more after FG is reached.

Ah well.

Stop thinking for yourself.... sheesh - you could end up being different from the rest!

 

[Yooper]

Really? I was told by many to leave it 4 weeks in primary. I do 3 until I feel the need to change.

I've never gone 4 weeks, as I don't see the need. If the beer is at FG and has been for a week or so, and the beer is clear, then why wait? I mean, sure the whole "yeast cleaning up after itself" is a valid theory, but it certainly doesn't take weeks and weeks- more like 48 hours after FG is reached at the most. Once the beer is clear, and has been at FG for at least 5 days, nothing "magical" happens in the fermenter.

I believe strongly that a well made beer (proper yeast pitching amounts, proper temperature control, proper ingredients) won't create a ton of flavors in the first place that need time to "clean up" (aside from diacetyl and acetaldehyde). Some beers, like my oatmeal stout, DO need a bit longer for the flavors to meld but that can happen in the keg/bottle. Two weeks is still plenty of time in my opinion.

I also have seen a few brewpubs that use extract. It's more expensive to purchase extract, BUT the equipment is cheaper. No MLT, no HLT, etc. So, the cost savings at first can be significant.

I've had some excellent extract beers, and some awful AG beers. A good brewer can make an excellent beer out of AG or extract. But in my experience, there is a bit of a different in taste between AG and extract. Not bad- I'm not saying that extract doesn't taste really good if in a well made beer. But it IS different.

That reminds me of an analogy I use often. I make spaghetti sauce lots of different ways, depending on how much time I have. I also make beer.
To my mind:
Hunts spaghetti sauce in a can = Cooper's prehopped kits
Jarred sauce with adding stuff = extract kit
Homemade sauce, starting with canned tomato sauce/paste= partial mash
Homemade sauce, starting with fresh tomatoes= AG brewing

Now, you can make some pretty good spaghetti sauce with canned tomato paste and your own seasoning, and it can be better than people who start with whole tomatoes and make it from there. But the best sauce is always made by the best sauce maker, and it's rarely from the canned stuff.

Same with beer. The best brewer can make an excellent beer with extract and partial mash. But usually, there IS a difference that is noticeable. That's not a bad thing, it just is.

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . Two weeks is still plenty of time in my opinion.

Yeah, but if two is good, isn't four better.

 

[doctorRobert]

Really? I wouldn't expect to taste much difference if ANY at all. It is the same process as when you are using extract, you just get more room to customize your beers with temps. So I would accept the arguement that your beers might come out drier...but that is if you choose it to be that way.

So yes it will taste different since you have more freedom, but saying "extract beers taste worse than all grain" as a general rule is not valid.

The difference is in control. You can control attenuation through mash temp.

You also have more control is the base grains.

So there can be a HUGE difference in taste, if you exercise the tools the all grain brewer has than the extract brewer does not.

 

[cadarnell]

Hunts spaghetti sauce in a can = Cooper's prehopped kits
Jarred sauce with adding stuff = extract kit
Homemade sauce, starting with canned tomato sauce/paste= partial mash
Homemade sauce, starting with fresh tomatoes= AG brewing

excellent analogy ...

 

[Beezy]

I've never gone 4 weeks, as I don't see the need. If the beer is at FG and has been for a week or so, and the beer is clear, then why wait? I mean, sure the whole "yeast cleaning up after itself" is a valid theory, but it certainly doesn't take weeks and weeks- more like 48 hours after FG is reached at the most. Once the beer is clear, and has been at FG for at least 5 days, nothing "magical" happens in the fermenter.

I believe strongly that a well made beer (proper yeast pitching amounts, proper temperature control, proper ingredients) won't create a ton of flavors in the first place that need time to "clean up" (aside from diacetyl and acetaldehyde). Some beers, like my oatmeal stout, DO need a bit longer for the flavors to meld but that can happen in the keg/bottle. Two weeks is still plenty of time in my opinion.

I also have seen a few brewpubs that use extract. It's more expensive to purchase extract, BUT the equipment is cheaper. No MLT, no HLT, etc. So, the cost savings at first can be significant.

I've had some excellent extract beers, and some awful AG beers. A good brewer can make an excellent beer out of AG or extract. But in my experience, there is a bit of a different in taste between AG and extract. Not bad- I'm not saying that extract doesn't taste really good if in a well made beer. But it IS different.

That reminds me of an analogy I use often. I make spaghetti sauce lots of different ways, depending on how much time I have. I also make beer.
To my mind:
Hunts spaghetti sauce in a can = Cooper's prehopped kits
Jarred sauce with adding stuff = extract kit
Homemade sauce, starting with canned tomato sauce/paste= partial mash
Homemade sauce, starting with fresh tomatoes= AG brewing

Now, you can make some pretty good spaghetti sauce with canned tomato paste and your own seasoning, and it can be better than people who start with whole tomatoes and make it from there. But the best sauce is always made by the best sauce maker, and it's rarely from the canned stuff.

Same with beer. The best brewer can make an excellent beer with extract and partial mash. But usually, there IS a difference that is noticeable. That's not a bad thing, it just is.

I was having fun with my sauces for a while and was using fresh tomatoes and herbs where I could. Same thing with beer. If it takes me all day to make I am perfectly fine because it's fun for me. I wait all week to brew on the weekend I don't want it to be over in 2 hours.

I hear ya on the time. I go by weeks because I do everything on the weekend. 2 weeks might not be enough for some beers so I might as well leave it the extra week. 4 weeks ya I don't see it and the pros certainly don't do it. They at least get the yeast out of there. Whatever works. I feel like I am not learning anything yet because my beers are turning out good haha.

 

[waddsworth]

Well yoop,

Apparently we are part of the snobby elitest AG brewers, selling the Emperor's new clothing.

Haha, the difference between Yoop's response and yours is tact. I've brewed 75 gallons AG so far this year, and I've loved all of them. My beers have consistently improved over time, and I just attributed the improvement when I went to AG as just being a part of that linear progression. Without doing side-by-side batches for myself, I can't say for sure about twang. But even if I confirmed the "twang"for myself, I still wouldn't dare tell somebody else that they have an "inferior palate" simply because their experience differs from mine.

If that makes me a "*********", or shows "inexperience" on my part, then so be it.

 

[DannPM]

To my mind:
Hunts spaghetti sauce in a can = Cooper's prehopped kits
Jarred sauce with adding stuff = extract kit
Homemade sauce, starting with canned tomato sauce/paste= partial mash
Homemade sauce, starting with fresh tomatoes= AG brewing

Excellent comparison!!!

 

[CidahMastah]

Haha, the difference between Yoop's response and yours is tact. I've brewed 75 gallons AG so far this year, and I've loved all of them. My beers have consistently improved over time, and I just attributed the improvement when I went to AG as just being a part of that linear progression. Without doing side-by-side batches for myself, I can't say for sure about twang. But even if I confirmed the "twang"for myself, I still wouldn't dare tell somebody else that they have an "inferior palate" simply because their experience differs from mine.

If that makes me a "*********", or shows "inexperience" on my part, then so be it.

again with your running at the mouth and trying to stir up an argument.

I never said anything about inferior anything. I made a benign statement that some people may not have the palate to pick it up. And you ... took your poetic license and started to run your mouth from there, claiming I said it. You took it personal.

Just give it a rest.

Take some time and read the other people's posts (try to learn something from them) - you will notice they are very similar to what I said.

and yes, I still believe my previous assessment applies.

 

[waddsworth]

I never said anything about inferior anything. I made a benign statement that some people may not have the palate to pick it up.

So... not having a palate to "pick it up" is a superior palate? Or perhaps its a "different, but exactly equal" palate? Is that what you meant?

But whatever. Taken in the context of your other posts it seems that what you wrote is not what you meant. Unfortunately, you wrote it and I read it and responded to it. If I offended you, I apologize.

 

[Germelli1]

GROUP HUG TIME

 

[CidahMastah]

Germelli - ha .. good god man !

well played sir!

 

[CidahMastah]

So... not having a palate to "pick it up" is a superior palate? Or perhaps its a "different, but exactly equal" palate? Is that what you meant?

My statement was very simple and without hidden meaning.

Your palate is your palate; it is determined by your genes. It is like describing hair color, a widows peak, etc. It is not insulting to say that someone might not be able to taste something based on their palate's ability to do so. It might simply be the difference between a regular taster, and a super taster.

I could generally always taste extract, just as yooper said she always could. Didn't mean the beer was bad. However, to me extract does have a discernible taste. It tastes like extract. I prefer my AG beers that don't have that flavor.

+1 on the extract being fresh in helping the brew out. But for me the taste was still there, just less noticeable.

 

[Germelli1]

My statement was very simple and without hidden meaning.

Your palate is your palate; it is determined by your genes. It is like describing hair color, a widows peak, etc. It is not insulting to say that someone might not be able to taste something based on their palate's ability to do so. It might simply be the difference between a regular taster, and a super taster.

I could generally always taste extract, just as yooper said she always could. Didn't mean the beer was bad. However, to me extract does have a discernible taste. It tastes like extract. I prefer my AG beers that don't have that flavor.

+1 on the extract being fresh in helping the brew out. But for me the taste was still there, just less noticeable.

I want to get input from someone on the other side of the issue. If I were to brew the same recipe prepared from both extract and all grain to do a side by side comparison, would a Mild Brown ale be a satisfactory recipe? It is low alcohol, around 3.5% so it wouldn't mask any flavors in that regard, but it does contain a small amount of chocolate malt, which may in fact mask flavors.

What are your thoughts? I am not trying to prove anything to anyone but myself if I do do this test!

 

[doctorRobert]

I want to get input from someone on the other side of the issue. If I were to brew the same recipe prepared from both extract and all grain to do a side by side comparison, would a Mild Brown ale be a satisfactory recipe? It is low alcohol, around 3.5% so it wouldn't mask any flavors in that regard, but it does contain a small amount of chocolate malt, which may in fact mask flavors.

What are your thoughts? I am not trying to prove anything to anyone but myself if I do do this test!

The thing is, you won't be able to get the "same recipe". Most of the time, you won't know exactly what kind of malt was used in making the extract. You also don't know what temp they mashed at - so that's a pretty big deal. Forget about the mysterious 'extract twang' - the increased control is the biggest difference between all grain and extract. So there will be differences in the beer beyond your control. The other thing with extract is that you're limited to just a couple basemalts - that's the biggest reason to go all grain.

And I don't believe there is an 'extract' twang. I'm in the process of reading 'designing great beers' and you'd be surprised how many extract beers are the ones winning awards at NHC. If these beers had any twang at all they wouldn't do so well.

I'm all grain except for my hefe's. My extract Hefe went to the 2nd round of the NHC this year. Pretty good for a beer with twang. One of the judges, not only assumed the beer was all grain, but that I didn't even use corn sugar to carbonate but krausened it instead.

 

[Germelli1]

The thing is, you won't be able to get the "same recipe". Most of the time, you won't know exactly what kind of malt was used in making the extract. You also don't know what temp they mashed at - so that's a pretty big deal. Forget about the mysterious 'extract twang' - the increased control is the biggest difference between all grain and extract. So there will be differences in the beer beyond your control. The other thing with extract is that you're limited to just a couple basemalts - that's the biggest reason to go all grain.

And I don't believe there is an 'extract' twang. I'm in the process of reading 'designing great beers' and you'd be surprised how many extract beers are the ones winning awards at NHC. If these beers had any twang at all they wouldn't do so well.

I'm all grain except for my hefe's. My extract Hefe went to the 2nd round of the NHC this year. Pretty good for a beer with twang. One of the judges, not only assumed the beer was all grain, but that I didn't even use corn sugar to carbonate but krausened it instead.

I agree with you on extract not having a percievable taste, but I would like to do a comparision for shts and giggles. I know you can't replicate recipes exactly between extract and all grain, but I am thinking of just brewing something with extra light DME vs. either 2-row or MO, same specialty bill and just comparing them. I am not looking for 100% scientific data, just something to base my opinions on with more weight than "I have brewed both extract and all grain, but never the same beer with identical fermentation/yeast conditions."

 

[CidahMastah]

I want to get input from someone on the other side of the issue. If I were to brew the same recipe prepared from both extract and all grain to do a side by side comparison, would a Mild Brown ale be a satisfactory recipe? It is low alcohol, around 3.5% so it wouldn't mask any flavors in that regard, but it does contain a small amount of chocolate malt, which may in fact mask flavors.

What are your thoughts? I am not trying to prove anything to anyone but myself if I do do this test!

You mean brewer who thinks there isn't a taste difference?



The only person you have to prove it to is yourself.

I think when you go head to head with any style it will be noticeable. I compared extract vs. AG with several brews including a Torpedo clone, Arrogant clone and a porter. When I tasted each I could tell. My wife picked out extract each time as well. Again, both brews were still good, but the AG really does stand out to me.

EDIT: For the record in the beginning I wanted to skip AG because i thought the extract turned out a pretty good brew for not as "complicated" of a process as AG. Tasting the difference head to head made me go from extract to AG. My first three AG batches were BIAB, then I got nuts and did an electric kettle with a basic controller. BIAB taught me AG brewing isn't that much more work, or complicated.

 

[CidahMastah]

And I don't believe there is an 'extract' twang.

the "twang" is an expression and not literally a twang like a tangy spritely off flavor. (at least for me)

 

[Germelli1]

You mean brewer who thinks there isn't a taste difference?



The only person you have to prove it to is yourself.

I think when you go head to head with any style it will be noticeable. I compared extract vs. AG with several brews including a Torpedo clone, Arrogant clone and a porter. When I tasted each I could tell. My wife picked out extract each time as well. Again, both brews were still good, but the AG really does stand out to me.

That is exactly what I mean! Even as I sit here and argue that I havn't brewed an extract batch with the "twang" since my first 5 or so batches, I want to have something more to go on. I am very open minded and loved to be proved wrong, especially by myself haha. I want to do a decent side by side comparison where I make every variable I can identical so I have a good test for myself and really see what I think on this issue!

 

[waddsworth]

My statement was very simple and without hidden meaning.

Your palate is your palate; it is determined by your genes. It is like describing hair color, a widows peak, etc. It is not insulting to say that someone might not be able to taste something based on their palate's ability to do so. It might simply be the difference between a regular taster, and a super taster.

I could generally always taste extract, just as yooper said she always could. Didn't mean the beer was bad. However, to me extract does have a discernible taste. It tastes like extract. I prefer my AG beers that don't have that flavor.

+1 on the extract being fresh in helping the brew out. But for me the taste was still there, just less noticeable.

This looks to be the source of my misunderstanding. I view, perhaps incorrectly, a palate as something that can be (within reasonable physiological constraints, of course) trained, fine tuned, expanded etc. Its sorta like the cliche, "Its an acquired taste". So if there is a "twang", somebody should eventually be able to detect it amongst all the other flavors.

I don't know if that makes sense - but fwiw, I get where you're coming from.

In any case, my curiosity is piqued now, and I have to put an extract brew and AG on my list for a side-by-side.

 

[Jubilee]

the "twang" is an expression and not literally a twang like a tangy spritely off flavor. (at least for me)

+1. For me it just tastes like extract. Yes, I always stick my finger in the jug of extract. Can't resist!

 

[Bigscience]

I think my brewing buddy summed it up best when he said " I thought I made good beers before but I realize they weren't that great.". I think what can happen is a case of the cellar blindness were you tend to ignore flaws or weaknesses in your own beers. It's just like how ever parent thinks their kid is a genus or how everybody thinks they are a better than average driver.

I have a friend who is really into wine (yes, I don't know why we're friends). He has a large cellar, has no problem spending hundreds of dollars on a bottle and has a very well developed wine palate. But when it comes to wine that he's made, he is blind to their major flaws. I keep wanting to switch bottles on him and hear what his comments would be if he didn't know it was his baby. I feel like we would be friends if I pulled that trick though.

I forget the exact stat but I want to say that 80% of home brewers are extract. People tend to find data that will validate their current opinions and if you aren't planning on going to AG you may justify this decision by not seeing any flavor differences. The same can be said for those who have gone to AG and want to justify the costs of equipment.

I guess what it all comes down to is you brew beer for you and your friends and if you like how it tastes and you can't taste the twang, then there is no twang.

 

[jkarp]

Extract twang, myth or not, I recommend long-time AG brewers give an extract brew a shot sometime.

I got way behind in brewing, didn't have a lot of weekend to play with, and figured I'd try an extract lager for the hell of it. 1st extract in over 4 years. 2 hour brew day, start to finish, and the beer was outstanding.

I think many (most?) brewers don't realize their early extract brews were wanting for lack of experience more than ingredients.

 

[CidahMastah]

Extract twang, myth or not, I recommend long-time AG brewers give an extract brew a shot sometime.

I got way behind in brewing, didn't have a lot of weekend to play with, and figured I'd try an extract lager for the hell of it. 1st extract in over 4 years. 2 hour brew day, start to finish, and the beer was outstanding.

I think many (most?) brewers don't realize their early extract brews were wanting for lack of experience more than ingredients.

I am just too damn cheap to run in and buy extract for a brew now that I have been fortunate enough to get in on bulk grain buys

Have you tried back to back batches as a time savings? I do back to back 10G batches on the same day does help me and my buddy save time, have a good variety, and a fantastic pipeline. When my buddy doesn't show up, the pipeline gets insane...

 

[ILBMF]

I..........I...........Jeez........I love beer!